India. Pakistan. Chennai. 1999

[Jimmy Cliff]

4 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Nah I would still call it a bad choke, mainly because of the way he threw it away with victory in sight. That shot selection was a massive brain fart. 

Interesting. Are there any other comparable performances in a match-winning cause in Test cricket that you think were bad choke jobs?

[maniac]

1 minute ago, Gollum said:

No need for that, let's keep it civil. Why not stick to debating the points if you want to? I have explained my p.o.v clearly in this thread. 

Ok fair enough but you got the definition of a choke wrong. 

 

Sachin was playing an attacking knock all innings. Do you think the situation demanded him rotating the strike with the tail and knock the remaining runs cautiously?

 

You probably didn’t seem the game live and are basing your opinions on the various opinions given since then on Sachin’s knock.

 

Trust me I saw the innings live on TV and thought it was a heroic knock amidst adversity. Our tail then and even now are the worst bunch of phattu ever unfortunately.

[Tendulkar1996]

Worst memory of my childhood cricket days along with 1996 SF WC .Both occasions i cried as a boy.

[Gollum]

People miss the essence of what I am trying to say, don't know deliberately or whether the devotion to Sachin makes them hypersensitive to criticism? 

 

I will explain this with another example in a different format, same year. 1999 WC semi final, RSA vs Oz. Klusener brought them from the brink, Donald bowled a great spell earlier in the day (4/32)...the 2 of them had a big role in getting their side to a winning position and BOOM the famous tie? Now question is did (esp Zulu) they choke or not? Should their earlier contribution in the match compensate for their stupidity/mental collapse in the final over? Can a parallel be made with the Chennai test? They were last men standing with 4 balls left to get a solitary run, Sachin was essentially the last batsman left and he knew the remaining batsmen were duds who would be eaten alive by a super strong Pakistani bowling force. If tomorrow Kohli gets in a similar situation against say RSA with Bumrah, Chahal, Khaleel left to bat what would be your expectation? Should he get the 17 odd runs in a sensible manner or should he take on their best bowler Rabada (having a dream match) with an ugly cross swipe?  

[krupaksk]

Great article by one of my fav cricket writer. Captured the whole match for the drama, Inspired writing!

20 years.. hmmn... still the hurt feels real. 

Sachin has been part of my life for a long time and he has lifted me from tough days and this day was amazing roller coaster with bitter end.

Tough luck as the Pakistan had ATG attack and we didnt have reliable batsmen with winning mentality (moral compass of the few in the team were also questionable). 

In 90s it was dreadful watching India vs Pakistan, you always had a feeling our collapse was round the corner. All the hope was on Sachin.

Since then we have won our fair share of matches against Pakistan to compensate for the heartbreaks, now it doesnt hurt that much when we lose to them. I am older to put my life in standstill for cricket like I used to and our team is more professional. 

[Gollum]

8 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Interesting. Are there any other comparable performances in a match-winning cause in Test cricket that you think were bad choke jobs?

Here we are talking about 4th innings knocks. 4th innings wins are very rare, even more stricter filter when the comparison is 136 and not just a random 136 but a high quality one. I can't think of any particular instance of a choke job in an otherwise high quality 4th innings effort. The innings I remember either involved the batsman seeing his side through or not throwing his wicket with victory in sight.

[maniac]

26 minutes ago, Gollum said:

People miss the essence of what I am trying to say, don't know deliberately or whether the devotion to Sachin makes them hypersensitive to criticism? 

 

I will explain this with another example in a different format, same year. 1999 WC semi final, RSA vs Oz. Klusener brought them from the brink, Donald bowled a great spell earlier in the day (4/32)...the 2 of them had a big role in getting their side to a winning position and BOOM the famous tie? Now question is did (esp Zulu) they choke or not? Should their earlier contribution in the match compensate for their stupidity/mental collapse in the final over? Can a parallel be made with the Chennai test? They were last men standing with 4 balls left to get a solitary run, Sachin was essentially the last batsman left and he knew the remaining batsmen were duds who would be eaten alive by a super strong Pakistani bowling force. If tomorrow Kohli gets in a similar situation against say RSA with Bumrah, Chahal, Khaleel left to bat what would be your expectation? Should he get the 17 odd runs in a sensible manner or should he take on their best bowler Rabada (having a dream match) with an ugly cross swipe?  

You don’t have to go hypothetical.Recently in the WI series in the game we lost Kohli was out after scoring a 100 and our middle order folded and we lost by 40 runs.

 

No one cares because it was a random game against WI. Our lower order couldn’t get the job done against frickin WI attack on a flat pitch.

 

Kohli must have played a pathetic innings then as well.

 

This Sachin innings  gets highlighted and becomes a part of folklore because it was a tremendous knock in the toughest format of the game on a very good test pitch against a fantastic bowling attack.  We all were gutted and as @Tendulkar1996 mentioned, most of us have bitter memories because this would have been an ATG victory. Not a single guy who watched the game blames Sachin because it was the fault of a pathetic team and a terrible lower order.

 

Sachin is not beyond criticism but this is one occasion were he doesn’t need to be criticized but we have to celebrate the ATG knock played by one of our greatest cricketers. If anything blame the lack of spine of most of our lower- middle order. A problem that surprising exists even now

[Gollum]

23 minutes ago, maniac said:

Ok fair enough but you got the definition of a choke wrong. 

 

Sachin was playing an attacking knock all innings. Do you think the situation demanded him rotating the strike with the tail and knock the remaining runs cautiously?

 

You probably didn’t seem the game live and are basing your opinions on the various opinions given since then on Sachin’s knock.

 

Trust me I saw the innings live on TV and thought it was a heroic knock amidst adversity. Our tail then and even now are the worst bunch of phattu ever unfortunately.

I saw that match live, don't remember ball by ball but went through the same emotions as you and others here. That time I was a kid, very new to cricket and didn't understand all the details. For many years I used to blame his bad back and fixer Azhar for the loss, but can't stay in denial for eternity. Later I re-watched the innings and read/watched stuff related to the series.

 

Situation demanded him to play the ball on merit, not whack a well flighted, good length doosra on leg stump against the turn. All innings he was showing controlled aggression against spinners.......punishing the short ones (a lot), using paddle sweep (safe on a turner against offie ball on stumps), going down the ground against overpitched deliveries, the sensible stuff. Only twice he went reckless, one resulted in missed stumping (90 odd) and the other resulted in his dismissal (near target). 

[zen]

1996 WC to the start of 1999 WC was Tendulkar's best phase (at least in terms of him playing exciting memorable cricket) iirc 

 

• 1996 ODI WC
• 1997 169 in SA
• 1998 Aus Test Series
• 1998 Desert Storm at Sharjah 
• 1999 that inning vs Pak (though he failed in other innings in the series) 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2019 by zen

[Gollum]

21 minutes ago, maniac said:

You don’t have to go hypothetical.Recently in the WI series in the game we lost Kohli was out after scoring a 100 and our middle order folded and we lost by 40 runs.

 

No one cares because it was a random game against WI. Our lower order couldn’t get the job done against frickin WI attack on a flat pitch.

 

Kohli must have played a pathetic innings then as well.

 

I didn't follow the WI series. Was the match important in the grand scheme of things? Did Kohli play a stupid shot (preferably against the best WI bowler that day) to get out with target in sight? When he got out did we have zero recognized batsmen left? If your answer is YES for ALL the above 3 questions we may be onto something.

 

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said Sachin's knock was pathetic. I called it a high quality one but a choke job nonetheless. Just like how Federer's 2008 SW19, 2009 AO/USO were high quality performances but spineless chokes in the end. I will apply the same yardstick to all, even my idols.  

 

Quote

Sachin is not beyond criticism but this is one occasion were he doesn’t need to be criticized but we have to celebrate the ATG knock played by one of our greatest cricketers. If anything blame the lack of spine of most of our lower- middle order. A problem that surprising exists even now.

Of course he isn't beyond criticism, he is as fallible as the next person. 

ATG knock yes, choke yes.

Why should I blame the bowlers? They were specialists that time and weren't expected to do much with the willow against that Pakistani bowling attack. Only in recent times have tailenders taken batting more seriously. They did their primary job well in that series, our bowlers always get extra flak to preserve the aura of our batting gods. Our superstar batters could never justify their inflated reputation in crunch matches and the bowlers were convenient scapegoats. Can't blame the bowlers or their supposed lack of spine, it was up to a well set batsman to guide them through the final stretch. 

Edited January 31, 2019 by Gollum

[Gollum]

1996 WC SF heartbreak

1997 Barbados loss

1998 Test series loss in Zimbabwe

1999 Pak Chennai/Calcutta tests, WC disaster, Australia tests whitewash

2000 CB series massacre, home test series whitewash against RSA 

2001 Drawn test series in Zimbabwe a month after the famous win against Australia

 

Too many scars, hated the 90s and beginning of 00s as a cricket buff.  

Edited January 31, 2019 by Gollum

[zen]

4 minutes ago, Gollum said:

 

1997 Barbados loss

 

Lara's 45 was brilliant considering the context of the game

 

 

[Jimmy Cliff]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Here we are talking about 4th innings knocks. 4th innings wins are very rare, even more stricter filter when the comparison is 136 and not just a random 136 but a high quality one. I can't think of any particular instance of a choke job in an otherwise high quality 4th innings effort. The innings I remember either involved the batsman seeing his side through or not throwing his wicket with victory in sight.

So had we gone on to win the game it might just have been the first ever match-winning choke job . On a serious note, you're right about 4th innings wins being rare and knocks like the 136 being rarer. Having said that, there have been a few match-winning tons in the 4th innings where the batsmen didn't quite stay till the end. I don't remember any of these being called choke jobs. I wonder why.

 

For instance,

 

Chanderpaul and Sarwan here.

 

Jayawardene here

 

Damien Martyn here

 

Not including knocks by openers as that wouldn't be a like for like comparison.

 

[zen]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

1996 WC SF heartbreak

1997 Barbados loss

1998 Test series loss in Zimbabwe

1999 Pak Chennai/Calcutta tests, WC disaster, Australia tests whitewash

2000 CB series massacre, home test series whitewash against RSA 

2001 Drawn test series in Zimbabwe a month after the famous win against Australia

 

Too many scars, hated the 90s and beginning of 00s as a cricket buff.  

these things have continued and happen in sports 

 

2003 WC F heartbreak

2007 WC fiasco

2015 WC SF heartbreak 

 

Countless test series loses in strong countries .... SA, Aus and Eng winning series in Ind 

 

Imagine soccer fans from Eng, Spain, Holland, etc., whose teams usually lose at certain stages. How many scars can they carry? I guess, they have to move on and be positive .... France too till 1998 .... Teams like Hungary were best in 1954 but lost to Germany in the final. Holland too in the 70s (1974 and 78 finalists), which was known for total football iirc   

Edited January 31, 2019 by zen

[Real McCoy]

7 hours ago, maniac said:

Ok fair enough but you got the definition of a choke wrong. 

 

Sachin was playing an attacking knock all innings. Do you think the situation demanded him rotating the strike with the tail and knock the remaining runs cautiously?

 

You probably didn’t seem the game live and are basing your opinions on the various opinions given since then on Sachin’s knock.

 

Trust me I saw the innings live on TV and thought it was a heroic knock amidst adversity. Our tail then and even now are the worst bunch of phattu ever unfortunately.

Its clear you havent seen the match live on tv. Stop lying . He was playing a Pujara-type innings. His 100 came after 230+ deliveries. At tea, they needed 50 runs with 5 wickets remaining. One would wager on the batting team to win it. After tea, him and Mongia tried to play aggressively and gave away their wickets. Total harakiri. SRT and Mongia needed to play the same way as they have done in the first two sessions and it would have been 2-0.

[Nonbeliever]

Current test team won't even pass tendulkar score.  even afridi is enough don't need saqlain.  They are so pathetic against spin.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Nonbeliever

[SK_IH]

this thread went in the wrong direction , i thought it was a very well structured article, with nice insights from people on the sidelines. Its always great to get the background stories and revisit some events which you saw live. 

[Stan AF]

I'm not going to go into whether this is a great knock or tendulkar choked etc etc... Futile discussion

 

But One thing I've never understand among Indian fans is why everything is expected from one batsmen or two. Even when tendulkar got out the score was 254/6. The rest of the tail should have chased those 17 runs down. Surely they deserve more blame than what Tendulkar gets even now. How much more carrying of the team should a man do???? It was Tendulkar then , Kohli now and who knows what tomorrow. This culture has to change.

 

The man scored half the target (136 out of 271) and even the rest of the 10 players couldn't achieve the rest. This mentality of expecting everything from one batsmen has been passed on to generations through generations and that is evident even now seeing how top order collapses result in Indian team losses just like the 92 all out in NZ yesterday.

[Gollum]

6 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

So had we gone on to win the game it might just have been the first ever match-winning choke job . On a serious note, you're right about 4th innings wins being rare and knocks like the 136 being rarer. Having said that, there have been a few match-winning tons in the 4th innings where the batsmen didn't quite stay till the end. I don't remember any of these being called choke jobs. I wonder why.

 

For instance,

 

Chanderpaul and Sarwan here.

 

Jayawardene here

 

Damien Martyn here

 

Not including knocks by openers as that wouldn't be a like for like comparison.

 

None of those are regarded as top tier ATG knocks, the WI chase was cool though but who talks about those dead rubber 100s these days. And it depends on how the batsmen lost their wickets? As I told maniac it has to fulfill 3 conditions to draw a comparison with Sachin's choke when he brought up a recent Kohli ODI 100 against WI. 

Quote

Was the match important in the grand scheme of things? Did Kohli play a stupid shot (preferably against the best WI bowler that day) to get out with target in sight? When he got out did we have zero recognized batsmen left? If your answer is YES for ALL the above 3 questions we may be onto something.

 

[bahubali]

14 hours ago, Adi BB said:

He hit saqi for boundaries and played similar shots throughout the innings ,shot was on .

Thing is,its rather the Pakistan bowlers who choked ,271 was a massive target on that pitch and they should have won comfortably but seeing how close we went and a couple of bad decisions given against us ,I was absolutely gutted after the last wkt fell .

India should have won that series 2-0 

Sachin has choked many time in final, but can't call this knock as choke job. From 70-4 to bringing team near 17 run from victory after struggling from back injury was excellent performance it just that we had such a pathetic tail that they couldn't score 17 to win. Also some refer kumbble with broken jaw bowled , did he won that test? In addition with broken jaw and broken nos you can still bat and bowl. But with back injury  do you think a fast bowler or batsmen can last one or two over forget about making century in a crucial match. Having said this I agree that Sachin failed on many occasions in final but then who doesnt.?