Why are we reluctant to develop or pick the next gen 140 k + pacers ?

[nsareen]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

After he became the BCCI President. I had expected Ganguly to be more proactive about transforming young 140 k+ pacers into finished products and giving them enough chances in low key matches.

 

And have a game plan for their development in the pre-international level with some efficient international cricketer in charge of this.

 

Did not happen. Ganguly's health issues and Covid induced interruptions could have been major factors impeding this process though.

 

But we are losing a lot of young promising quicks who are either regressing as bowlers or losing pace or are perennially injured. This includes Saini, Mavi, Tyagi and Nagarkoti.

 

What can be done to improve this situation ??

@Mosher, @Suhaan, @rkt.india, @Lone Wolf, @Mesky99, @sarchasm, @nsareen, @MultiB48

 

 

 

Some of it has been hampered with Covid due to lack of domestic games, only IPL to speak of, having said that, the new upcoming bowlers, are spending more time in GYM than learning new modern age skills to keep the batsmen in check when the attack is on.

 

Bowlers like Starc, Fergusen, Afridi, Rabada would not let you hit them regularly, they find a way to deceive the batsmen with various skills. I noticed our quicks such as Saini, Krishna, Mavi, Avesh  are not multi Skilled ( Hard lengths, Slower Balls, Yorkers etc. ) rather are only relying on their primary skills. This has been really evident in IPL, this to me hampers the confidence & hence I feel they don't go flat out & strive for pace, because they are not confident of their own skills, specially with batsmen with hitting reputation in front of them.

 

Other difference in how players approach batting / bowling I've observed is that, many batters have personal coaches ( with international or national experience ) even in Domestic matches & have been improving skills , adapting to T20 skills, but have not seen bowlers having personal coaches to improve their skills with changing times.

 

lastly I feel specially with bowlers like Bumrah, shami, Thakur have been playing non stop this year & across formats, even though the management tries to balance it out, but in reality that takes a BIG TOLL over the body which eventually injures or reduces the pace. I believe we saw how Bumrah has been bowling slower relative to last couple of years, I can put down to overuse, same with Shami.

 

[Rantzz]

Because they tend to end up crap in T20 like umesh or varun aaron or vrv singh or parwinder awana or even prasidh 

[Mosher]

4 hours ago, express bowling said:

After he became the BCCI President. I had expected Ganguly to be more proactive about transforming young 140 k+ pacers into finished products and giving them enough chances in low key matches.

 

And have a game plan for their development in the pre-international level with some efficient international cricketer in charge of this.

 

Did not happen. Ganguly's health issues and Covid induced interruptions could have been major factors impeding this process though.

 

But we are losing a lot of young promising quicks who are either regressing as bowlers or losing pace or are perennially injured. This includes Saini, Mavi, Tyagi and Nagarkoti.

 

What can be done to improve this situation ??

@Mosher, @Suhaan, @rkt.india, @Lone Wolf, @Mesky99, @sarchasm, @nsareen, @MultiB48

 

 

If BCCI is serious about developing fast bowlers then they have to identify a pool of young talented 140+ bowlers and fast track them into the India A setup and like you said they should be selected in low key bilateral matches. No point in selecting trundlers like Sakariya. Someone like Nagarkoti hardly gets to play Ranji because his team has a lot of fast bowlers and his development is hampered. Same thing happened with Prasidh as he didn't get to play because of legends like Vinay and Mithun playing ahead of him. Kuldeep Sen should have been part of India A squad by now but he is toiling away in domestic cricket. 

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Mosher said:

If BCCI is serious about developing fast bowlers then they have to identify a pool of young talented 140+ bowlers and fast track them into the India A setup and like you said they should be selected in low key bilateral matches. No point in selecting trundlers like Sakariya. Someone like Nagarkoti hardly gets to play Ranji because his team has a lot of fast bowlers and his development is hampered. Same thing happened with Prasidh as he didn't get to play because of legends like Vinay and Mithun playing ahead of him. Kuldeep Sen should have been part of India A squad by now but he is toiling away in domestic cricket. 

 

 

Agree bro.

 

As you said, the BCCI and selectors should strongly focus on fast tracking the talented quick bowlers and also see to it that they get to play enough FC matches before that.

 

The identified pacers need to debut by 22 or 23 in most cases. Since they invariably lose pace after they become 32 or 33, why not give them a solid 10 years at full pace !!

 

Both Siraj and Saini debuted too late. Fast bowlers can't be treated like batsmen or spinners, who can operate even in their mid and late 30s.

 

I feel there should be a central coordinator for the upcoming quick bowlers, who overseas every aspect of their transformation from U19 level to the Indian team. 

 

This should include looking after their fitness as well as looking after their run up and actions. 

 

All this may exist in theory but the proper execution of this plan must be looked into.

 

In a nutshell, there should be a steady stream of ready 140 k+ pacers making their say into Team India. And play them in low key matches at a relatively young age.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by express bowling

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, nsareen said:

 

Some of it has been hampered with Covid due to lack of domestic games, only IPL to speak of, having said that, the new upcoming bowlers, are spending more time in GYM than learning new modern age skills to keep the batsmen in check when the attack is on.

 

Bowlers like Starc, Fergusen, Afridi, Rabada would not let you hit them regularly, they find a way to deceive the batsmen with various skills. I noticed our quicks such as Saini, Krishna, Mavi, Avesh  are not multi Skilled ( Hard lengths, Slower Balls, Yorkers etc. ) rather are only relying on their primary skills. This has been really evident in IPL, this to me hampers the confidence & hence I feel they don't go flat out & strive for pace, because they are not confident of their own skills, specially with batsmen with hitting reputation in front of them.

 

Every new quick, bowling with the white ball, must be made to practice atleast the straight yorker and one type of slower ball.

 

Master them and execute them rather than trying too many things. 

 

Many of them don't seem to have the confidence to execute even 1 type of ball but they try 4 or 5 types.

 

 

1 hour ago, nsareen said:

Other difference in how players approach batting / bowling I've observed is that, many batters have personal coaches ( with international or national experience ) even in Domestic matches & have been improving skills , adapting to T20 skills, but have not seen bowlers having personal coaches to improve their skills with changing times.

 

Good point.

 

1 hour ago, nsareen said:

 

lastly I feel specially with bowlers like Bumrah, shami, Thakur have been playing non stop this year & across formats, even though the management tries to balance it out, but in reality that takes a BIG TOLL over the body which eventually injures or reduces the pace. I believe we saw how Bumrah has been bowling slower relative to last couple of years, I can put down to overuse, same with Shami.

 

 

Which is why we should play new pacers in low key matches. And not the Sakarias but proper pacers. 

 

This will automatically give rest to the big guys.

 

We only play new pacers if there is injury to anyone. 

 

If Bumrah and Shami are rested then Ishant and Umesh come in even if the opposition is Afghanistan or Bangladesh. We need to use these opportunities to try young quicks.

 

The NZ T20 series should be used for this purpose too. Try Siraj, Prasidh and maybe even Umran as the frontline pacers with D.Chahar as the bowling all-rounder at 8.

[Mosher]

11 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

Koti and mavi are frequently injured ,agree on sen and prasidh , need to develop quicker bowlers with both new and old ball and not slow swing bowlers for the new ball.

Koti even when fit doesn't get to play as Chahar, Aniket, Khaleel and one more left armer forgot his name play ahead of him. He needs to move to some other Ranji team or fast tracked into India A where he can develop his skills. 

[maniac]

We did a stellar job backing Ishant,Umesh,Bumrah and Shami.

 

we got lucky with Siraj.

 

Finding 140k bowlers is clearly not the issue, backing and grooming them is

[express bowling]

2 minutes ago, Mosher said:

Koti even when fit doesn't get to play as Chahar, Aniket, Khaleel and one more left armer forgot his name play ahead of him. He needs to move to some other Ranji team or fast tracked into India A where he can develop his skills. 

 

Tanveer ul haq

 

And agree strongly.

[express bowling]

8 minutes ago, maniac said:

We did a stellar job backing Ishant,Umesh,Bumrah and Shami.

 

we got lucky with Siraj.

 

Ishant debuted in 2007 or 8, Umesh debuted in 2011, Shami in 2013 and Bumrah in 2016.

 

In the last 5 years, we have been able to settle only 1 pacer, Siraj. In tests 

 

And not a single new pacer has been able to settle down and succeed in white ball cricket in the last 5 years. This is worrisome as the shelf life of pacers is short and even in their best years they may get injured often.

 

 

Quote

 

Finding 140k bowlers is clearly not the issue, backing and grooming them is

 

We have the biggest pool of 140 k+ pacers in the world. But not a single new one has been able to settle down in white ball cricket after Bumrah's debut in 2016.

 

There is something wrong with the system which needs rectification.

Edited October 26, 2021 by express bowling

[maniac]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

Ishant debuted in 2007 or 8, Umesh debuted in 2011, Shami in 2013 and Bumrah in 2016.

 

In the last 5 years, we have been able to settle only 1 pacer, Siraj. In tests 

 

And not a single new pacer has been able to settle down and succeed in white ball cricket in the last 5 years. This is worrisome as the shelf life of pacers is short and even in their best years they may get injured often.

 

 

 

We have the biggest pool of 140 k+ pacers in the world. But not a single new one has been able to settle down in white ball cricket after Bumrah's debut in 2016.

 

There is something wrong with the system which needs rectification.

Here is the problem from what I have seen. IPL isn’t the place to do that unfortunately.

 

IPl has the best coaching setup and quality trainers and coaches however IPL franchises goal is to win.

 

India produces the best batsmen. I know it’s a cliche but look at 2nd-3rd tier prospects like Rituraj and Venky Iyer, they are better than first choice batsmen of 80% of teams.

 

India also produces the best spinners and utility spin cricketers who can bat especially in conditons IPL is played in.

 

So teams fill 7 slots with these players and usually fill the seam allrounder and fast bowler slots from overseas players. Indian young fast bowlers are a second thought. The prospects play meaningless dead rubbers or forcibly inducted.

 

That is why we need a different system to develop such players instead of IPL. IPL problem is there is no feeder system outside of foregin leagues that scout foreign players or Indian domestics. We need to look elsewhere or develop an alternative system to produce such talent.

[express bowling]

2 minutes ago, maniac said:

Here is the problem from what I have seen. IPL isn’t the place to do that unfortunately.

 

IPl has the best coaching setup and quality trainers and coaches however IPL franchises goal is to win.

 

India produces the best batsmen. I know it’s a cliche but look at 2nd-3rd tier prospects like Rituraj and Venky Iyer, they are better than first choice batsmen of 80% of teams.

 

India also produces the best spinners and utility spin cricketers who can bat especially in conditons IPL is played in.

 

So teams fill 7 slots with these players and usually fill the seam allrounder and fast bowler slots from overseas players. Indian young fast bowlers are a second thought. The prospects play meaningless dead rubbers or forcibly inducted.

 

That is why we need a different system to develop such players instead of IPL. IPL problem is there is no feeder system outside of foregin leagues that scout foreign players or Indian domestics. We need to look elsewhere or develop an alternative system to produce such talent.

 

The NCA, our domestic cricket structure, A team games and the IPL comprise the full system for player development after U19 stage.

 

If there is a central co-ordinator looking after the whole transformation process of the young uncapped talented quicks, we will get better results.

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

Yes, but in fairness, it's much the same story with AUS, ENG, and NZ.

 

 

 

One difference is that they don't have that many young quicks waiting in the wings.

 

I was actually trying to think who can be the next top pacer from Australia after Cummins, Starc and Hazlewood ... and can't off hand find anyone. 

 

England has one young quick who looks good, Ollie Stone, but he is perennially injured.

 

4 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

More deplorable is that in LOIs we have lolled around with economical but ineffective trundlers instead of letting quicks get the exposure.

 

Exactly my point.

[rkt.india]

33 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

One difference is that they don't have that many young quicks waiting in the wings.

 

I was actually trying to think who can be the next top pacer from Australia after Cummins, Starc and Hazlewood ... and can't off hand find anyone. 

 

England has one young quick who looks good, Ollie Stone, but he is perennially injured.

 

 

Exactly my point.

Australia have Jhy Richardson, Riley Meredith and Billy stanlake. Wes Agar, brother of Ashton Agar is coming up well too. 

 

Brendan dogget, David Moody, Spencer Johnson, Zak Evans, Xavier Bartlett are next in line.

 

Bartlett is another serious talent. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by rkt.india

[express bowling]

8 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Australia have Jhy Richardson, Riley Meredith and Billy stanlake. Wes Agar, brother of Ashton Agar is coming up well too 

 

 

Richardson has difficulty touching 140 k these days, 

 

Meredith averages 34+ in both FC and List A. No reason to think that he is a strike bowler.

 

Stanlake averages 32 in FC and 39 in List A. Moreover, he is too big and injury prone. Again no reason to think that he can be a strike bowler or can play that many matches even.

 

Wes Agar averages 37 in FC and 35+ in List A. 

 

All these guys are in their mid 20s ... if they are not strike bowlers in domestic cricket yet, no reason to be hopeful about them.

Edited October 26, 2021 by express bowling

[rkt.india]

15 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Richardson has difficulty touching 140 k these days, 

 

Meredith averages 34+ in both FC and List A. No reason to think that he is a strike bowler.

 

Stanlake averages 32 in FC and 39 in List A. Moreover, he is too big and injury prone. Again no reason to think that he can be a strike bowler or can play that many matches even.

 

Wes Agar averages 37 in FC and 35+ in List A. 

 

All these guys are in their mid 20s ... if they are not strike bowlers in domestic cricket yet, no reason to be hopeful about them.

These domestic stats are misleading as pitches are flat there. No reverse or seam/swing. Won't take those stats too seriously. Like bowling stats of English County bowlers should be taken with a pinch of salt 

Edited October 26, 2021 by rkt.india

[putrevus]

8 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

The NCA, our domestic cricket structure, A team games and the IPL comprise the full system for player development after U19 stage.

 

If there is a central co-ordinator looking after the whole transformation process of the young uncapped talented quicks, we will get better results.

Only way they can learn is by playing. Avesh should have been selected instead of a spinner in this squad.

[Suhaan]

4 hours ago, putrevus said:

Only way they can learn is by playing. Avesh should have been selected instead of a spinner in this squad.

Yes the more they play the better,if you give opportunities to 10 newcomers you may endup with 3-4 international quality pacers atleast

The less you play the less will be the number of upcoming international quality pacers

Atleast play them against lesser sides or even inconsequential games against bigger sides at home/away

[express bowling]

5 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Yes the more they play the better,if you give opportunities to 10 newcomers you may endup with 3-4 international quality pacers atleast

 

 

 

This is the key point.

 

Not everyone tried will end up being international quality. 

 

The bigger pool of 140 k+ pacers we create and give chances to, the more good pacers we will eventually unearth.