Bharat Karnad echoes my thoughts 100 % - Buy Kashmir off !!!

[Muloghonto]

 

3 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

What solution do you have or do you think Pak will simply surrender PoK while maintaining a stockpile of 120 + nuclear warheads with us paying no price at all ? 

Long term solution is simple:

1. keep pulling away from Pakistan in economy and by the time we are 2-3 times their per capita income, most of Pakistani will want to join us anyways, including Baltis, Shinas, Khowars etc who make up northern Ladakh ( which is what it is officially now).

 

2. Destabilize Pakistan so it suffers a fate akin to USSR. Break it up. Very much achievable in the next 50 years. Once broken up, we make allies with the Baloch and Afghans ( giving them NWFP will go a long way) and play off Sindh and Punjab vs each other.

 

Rome was not built in a day and this won’t be solved by some gimmick either. Every civilization has to fight tooth and nail to get its huq back from Islamists and we are no different in this regard.

[MechEng]

11 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

2) Why did we sign a retarded Shimla agreement in 1971 where we had 90000+ soldiers at our mercy and PoK could have been military ceased from a defeated army whose moral was destroyed. Whose fault was that ?

 

 

I read somewhere that Mujib Ur Rehman was in Pakistan army's custody and that Indira Gandhi was ready to release POWs because she understood the importance of a leader like Mujib Ur Rehman for a new country in Bangladesh. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by MechEng

[sandeep]

7 hours ago, MechEng said:

I read somewhere that Mujib Ur Rehman was in Pakistan army's custody and that Indira Gandhi was ready to release POWs because she understood the importance of a leader like Mujib Ur Rehman for a new country in Bangladesh. 

There was also an economic aspect to it - holding Prisoners of War meant providing facilities in line with Geneva Convention - in terms of lodging, food etc.  The costs were adding up.  India wasn't rich in 1971.  

 

Still, there is no doubting that it was a strategic error to allow Pakistan a fig leaf on Kashmir - Indira believed Bhutto's promises - or at least believed that they weren't going to get anything more out of Pakistan beyond what was agreed upon in Shimla.  Bhutto conceded enough to India that his own army murdered him, do keep that in mind.  

[rangeelaraja]

14 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

 

Long term solution is simple:

1. keep pulling away from Pakistan in economy and by the time we are 2-3 times their per capita income, most of Pakistani will want to join us anyways, including Baltis, Shinas, Khowars etc who make up northern Ladakh ( which is what it is officially now).

 

2. Destabilize Pakistan so it suffers a fate akin to USSR. Break it up. Very much achievable in the next 50 years. Once broken up, we make allies with the Baloch and Afghans ( giving them NWFP will go a long way) and play off Sindh and Punjab vs each other.

 

Rome was not built in a day and this won’t be solved by some gimmick either. Every civilization has to fight tooth and nail to get its huq back from Islamists and we are no different in this regard.

@Muloghonto

You are being seriously naive if you think historical templates like USSR can just be duplicated without any cognizance of the huge differences and reality of the current times. We can't even duplicate the Bangladesh template because Pak is now a nuclear weapons state.

 

You comments about "giving KPK to this..etc " ,  " playing this vs. that:  are all flights of fancy - that conveniently ignore that 

Pak is very painfully and unwilling being forced to mortgage more land and resources to China because they dont have an alternative.  At the current rate and Pak's perpetually financial misery - Pak will be in absolute control of China in 2 decades....much before your 50 years flight of fancy

 

Pak top brass don't like China , the mullahs there have their mouths muzzled to not speak against what China is doing to Uighurs.  They know China is exploiting the HELL out of them.  Pakistanis are not as stupid as you think them to be - these are the same guys who made an ar$e out of uncle sam for decades.

 

Their so called "Iron brother" China extracts a ton of flesh from Pak for every favor they provide.

 

What is 15-20 Billions dollars for China ? It is chump change. Yet Pak also had to beg UAE and Saudi to bail them out from a severe FX crisis.  China are ruthless - they give nothing for free. 

 

Pak Sunni Punjabi  top brass HATE being in the clutches of China - they know they are being milked bone dry - but they don't have any option right now.

 

India buying off PoK under UN aegis ( with  many conditions  including Pak hand over most wanted masterminds)- will allow Pak to become financially independent  get out of Chinese clutches, we get our land back - and most importantly - deal a blow to Chinese ambitions in the region.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

@Muloghonto

You are being seriously naive if you think historical templates like USSR can just be duplicated without any cognizance of the huge differences and reality of the current times. We can't even duplicate the Bangladesh template because Pak is now a nuclear weapons state.

learn some history. USSR was also a nuclear state, much more powerful than Pakistan.

 

[rangeelaraja]

14 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

learn some history. USSR was also a nuclear state, much more powerful than Pakistan.

 

 

Grow some common sense. USSR was not in the financial clutches  of a ripping off exploiter /master in the garb of an Iron brother like China.

 

[Singh bling]

15 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

. keep pulling away from Pakistan in economy and by the time we are 2-3 times their per capita income, most of Pakistani will want to join us anyways, including Baltis, Shinas, Khowars etc who make up northern Ladakh ( which is what it is officially now).

 

You have great knowledge of history but still sometimes you write childish points. When BD was created did they prefer to merge with India or preferred independent nation.? India is now seen as Hindutva nation. A Pakistani muslim no matter whatever grudge he has against Pak Govt will never go with India.they will prefer independence over merger with kafir idol worship nation.

 

Kashmiri's on indian side very well knew that with India it is 10 times more economic benefit than poor Pakistan yet want to merge with them if not given azaadi

[rangeelaraja]

6 minutes ago, Singh bling said:

Kashmiri's on indian side very well knew that with India it is 10 times more economic benefit than poor Pakistan yet want to merge with them if not given azaadi

It is only a very small radicalized and paid to throw stones society.

 

Balochis who are being slaughtered day in day out, Muhajirs, Sindhis, Ahmediyyas ( the remaining ones) - all want to walk out of Pak. So much so that Altaf Hussain head of MQM - the 3rd largest party in Pak and most influential party in Sindh , has asked India for asylum

Edited November 20, 2019 by rangeelaraja

[Singh bling]

2 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

It is only a very small radicalized and paid to throw stones society.

 

False , 99% Kashmiri muslims are anti India. Even leaders like Abdullah family changed their tune becaue they knew that pro India will get them support

 

4 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

Balochis who are being slaughtered day in day out, Muhajirs, Sindhis, Ahmediyyas ( the remaining ones) - all want to walk out of Pak. So much so that Altaf Hussain head of MQM - the 3rd largest party in Pak and most influential party in Sindh , has asked India for asylum

Walking out of Pakistan and merging with India are two different things. Even if they for their nation soon they will form alliance over islamic brotherhood and become nuisance for India.

[rangeelaraja]

5 minutes ago, Singh bling said:

False , 99% Kashmiri muslims are anti India. Even leaders like Abdullah family changed their tune becaue they knew that pro India will get them support

 

Walking out of Pakistan and merging with India are two different things. Even if they for their nation soon they will form alliance over islamic brotherhood and become nuisance for India.

 

You clearly don't know the reality. Where did the 99 % come from ? Are are you just shooting in the dark ?

 

Do you know how many hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri Muslims make applications to join the police force and armed forces ? Why would they do so if they are " anti-India" 

 

Hundreds of them have been targeted/killed by militants  specifically for joining India's law enforcement agencies. 

[Singh bling]

10 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

You clearly don't know the reality. Where did the 99 % come from ? Are are you just shooting in the dark ?

 

Do you know how many hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri Muslims make applications to join the police force and armed forces ? Why would they do so if they are " anti-India" 

 

Hundreds of them have been targeted/killed by militants  specifically for joining India's law enforcement agencies. 

Hundreds and thousands of Indians used to join British Indian army, Hundreds used to join police and lathi charge freedom fighters by that logic Britishers

Should never leave Indian as they were never short of Indians serving them

 

As 99% figure comes, show me one influential Muslim leader from Kashmir who is pro India.

 

And if only tiny minority is responsible for this mess then why Kashmiri leaders are under house arrest. 

[rangeelaraja]

13 minutes ago, Singh bling said:

Hundreds and thousands of Indians used to join British Indian army, Hundreds used to join police and lathi charge freedom fighters by that logic Britishers

Should never leave Indian as they were never short of Indians serving them

 

As 99% figure comes, show me one influential Muslim leader from Kashmir who is pro India.

 

And if only tiny minority is responsible for this mess then why Kashmiri leaders are under house arrest. 

 

Influential Kashmiri leaders have incited the masses, got Z-grade security from India govt and  gotten money from Pak to incite the local masses. They are multi-millionaires  with properties all over Europe and this is a business for them - rozi-roti and aaiyashi.

 

This is true for the Abdullahs and Mufti's while Geelani  and Mirwaiz are radical snakes that should have been eliminated a long while back

 

Tell me one influential  kashmiri muslim leader who has sent his kin to die fighting against Indian forces

 

Putting them under house arrest is to put a FULL STOP to this non-sense. Thats why their Z-grade security has also been withdrawn.

 

 

[Singh bling]

58 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

Influential Kashmiri leaders have incited the masses, got Z-grade security from India govt and  gotten money from Pak to incite the local masses. They are multi-millionaires  with properties all over Europe and this is a business for them - rozi-roti and aaiyashi.

 

This is true for the Abdullahs and Mufti's while Geelani  and Mirwaiz are radical snakes that should have been eliminated a long while back

 

Tell me one influential  kashmiri muslim leader who has sent his kin to die fighting against Indian forces

 

Putting them under house arrest is to put a FULL STOP to this non-sense. Thats why their Z-grade security has also been withdrawn.

 

 

Well you were saying India buying POK then why not India did not bought these leaders with bigger amount than Pakistan as India have more money. This would have saved so many lives .

[rangeelaraja]

8 minutes ago, Singh bling said:

Well you were saying India buying POK then why not India did not bought these leaders with bigger amount than Pakistan as India have more money. This would have saved so many lives .

They are living in territory under our control. Why pay them anything when putting them under house arrest solves the problem.

 Wait for some time , inka dimaag theekane aa jayega

[Muloghonto]

6 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

Grow some common sense. USSR was not in the financial clutches  of a ripping off exploiter /master in the garb of an Iron brother like China.

 

You are not just a young fool, but an ultra fool if you think paying Pakistan $$ to get our own land is a better scenario than Pakistan being China’s pawn. History proves that better the economy of Pakistan, more billigetent they are towards us. 

 

If USSR can be dismembered, so can Pakistan. A deepening link between China and Pakistan can easily destabilize Pakistan even more and that is to our direct benefit, much more than the historically debunked idea of paying off the barbarians. No country worth it’s salt ever pays off another for a conquered chunk of its land by the other. That’s called gold standard of being a coward and a pushover. 

[coffee_rules]

But, we can like, not pay, keep our land, give better option than Pak to its people, and save 90 bil.

[Muloghonto]

4 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

They are living in territory under our control. Why pay them anything when putting them under house arrest solves the problem.

 Wait for some time , inka dimaag theekane aa jayega

So you cannot bribe people who, in your own words, are your countrymen and in it for the money but you can successfully bribe your sworn enemy, to give up land it claims and holds, prima facie on existential basis and who has made an industry out of hostility against us. Brilliant. 

Maybe you should float the idea that when a rape victim is being raped, they should offer money to the rapist to stop the rape, when they are ten times richer than a destitute rapist. Are you sure you are not a Pakistani troll ?? 

[Muloghonto]

6 hours ago, Singh bling said:

You have great knowledge of history but still sometimes you write childish points. When BD was created did they prefer to merge with India or preferred independent nation.?

Umm, 1971 came 24 years after independence, where Pakistan was created mostly due to Bengali Muslim politics. Most of whom were still alive . Why would they want to join india ? 

6 hours ago, Singh bling said:

India is now seen as Hindutva nation. A Pakistani muslim no matter whatever grudge he has against Pak Govt will never go with India.they will prefer independence over merger with kafir idol worship nation.

The difference is, Baltis, Shinas and Khowars are a much more insulated cultures that are not overly radicalized or politicized against India. They can be won over easier than any other subcontinental non indian Muslims 

 

[sandeep]

11 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Are you sure you are not a Pakistani troll ?? 

That's harsh - he's just a bit misguided after watching a few youtube videos and has decided he's a self-styled analyst now.  Also, apparently very "well read".

[MechEng]

On 11/20/2019 at 7:37 AM, sandeep said:

There was also an economic aspect to it - holding Prisoners of War meant providing facilities in line with Geneva Convention - in terms of lodging, food etc.  The costs were adding up.  India wasn't rich in 1971.  

 

Still, there is no doubting that it was a strategic error to allow Pakistan a fig leaf on Kashmir - Indira believed Bhutto's promises - or at least believed that they weren't going to get anything more out of Pakistan beyond what was agreed upon in Shimla.  Bhutto conceded enough to India that his own army murdered him, do keep that in mind.  

Probably Pakistan was ready to release Mujibur Rehman and in return expecting to sign the Shimla agreement in 1972? We cannot underestimate the importance of someone like Mujibur Rehman, he was literally the voice of Bangladesh.