By 2050, India will have world’s largest Muslim population

[Mariyam]

@Muloghonto

You are mixing many things here.

I did not say that Kabir has had much influence of an on Islamic discourse. The arguement is if his teaching/preaching etc have had influence on the Indian society then. And there has been some impact of his teachings on the Bhakti movement and Sikhism. Would you now look down upon them too, because, you know they are touched by an evil Islamist?

 

The other two names I mentioned Hazrat Auliya and the Chisti order have had a huge impact (and continue to) on Islamic discourse in the country.  The entire philosophy of renunciation is something that is local to India and is not a part of mainstream Islamic canon. 

[Muloghonto]

8 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

@Muloghonto

You are mixing many things here.

I did not say that Kabir has had much influence of an on Islamic discourse. The arguement is if his teaching/preaching etc have had influence on the Indian society then. And there has been some impact of his teachings on the Bhakti movement and Sikhism. Would you now look down upon them too, because, you know they are touched by an evil Islamist?

I have no problems with indigenous dharmic traditions finding inspiration or influence from oddball Islamic scholars who are neither mainstream, nor representing majoritarian or orthodox Islamic thought. Perhaps that’s exactly why these oddball curiosities of Islam were able to influence dharmic religions positively at all.

8 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

The other two names I mentioned Hazrat Auliya and the Chisti order have had a huge impact (and continue to) on Islamic discourse in the country.  The entire philosophy of renunciation is something that is local to India and is not a part of mainstream Islamic canon. 

So I am supposed to consider Islam and Islamic ideology to be native to the land because a few oddball Muslims were swayed by dharmic traditions and adopted some aspects of it , which never became dominant even in local subcontinental scope, never mind global Islamic scope ? Sorry, that’s sophistry. My position against Islam is not because I said it’s completely impervious to Indic thought. It is because at its CORE it retains hostile foreign ideology that is dominant against kaffirs and whatever dharmic influence it had, is topical and inconsequntial to the civilization of Islam. 

[coffee_rules]

Winner sperm and egg

 

 

[rageaddict]

Masha Allah at this rate lagta hai yeh record toh hum 2035 main hi achieve kar lenge. 

 

Dekho kitne talented hai yeh.  Abaadi badane main toh enhone Pakistaniyo ko bhi peeche kar diya. 

 

Best Muslims in the World. 

[sergio04]

21 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Winner sperm and egg

 

 

They are underperforming.

[sandeep]

2 hours ago, rageaddict said:

Masha Allah at this rate lagta hai yeh record toh hum 2035 main hi achieve kar lenge. 

 

Dekho kitne talented hai yeh.  Abaadi badane main toh enhone Pakistaniyo ko bhi peeche kar diya. 

 

Best Muslims in the World. 

There are plenty of gawwaar hindu bhaiyyas in BIMARU who would match this nonsense.  Taking such anecdotal examples, extrapolating them to badmouth an entire segment of population - ignoring relevant factors such as education levels, urban/rural residency etc - to justify and regurgitate prejudice, is not only inaccurate, but its despicable.  

[coffee_rules]

23 minutes ago, sandeep said:

There are plenty of gawwaar hindu bhaiyyas in BIMARU who would match this nonsense.  Taking such anecdotal examples, extrapolating them to badmouth an entire segment of population - ignoring relevant factors such as education levels, urban/rural residency etc - to justify and regurgitate prejudice, is not only inaccurate, but its despicable.  

Do stats , why would a hotel employee have 12 kids in 15 years, show me one Hindu from bimaru states with similar mindset, also Barkha interviews a Muslim rickshaw puller with five kids. Have you ever thought about having five kids with all the riches that you have? Cmon it is a mansikta that needs to be addressed Hindu or Muslim. We need a population control bill without getting into petty religion politics.

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Cmon it is a mansikta that needs to be addressed Hindu or Muslim. We need a population control bill without getting into petty religion politics.

Totally agree with the first part.  But such things are constantly used to denigrate, revile, stereotype based on petty religious prejudice - that's what I have a problem with.

 

It is part of a constant, systematic "othering" that I have a very, very big problem with.  Such a mindset leads to a vicious internal cycle of more and more bigotry.  

[someone]

9 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Totally agree with the first part.  But such things are constantly used to denigrate, revile, stereotype based on petty religious prejudice - that's what I have a problem with.

 

It is part of a constant, systematic "othering" that I have a very, very big problem with.  Such a mindset leads to a vicious internal cycle of more and more bigotry.  

Asking uncomfortable questions does not mean prejudice or bigotry. It's important for any democracies to debate important issues. We have caste and have brought big discussion and reform changes on it. Similarly, some see woman being seen as just baby creating machines, and that needs to understood and discussed. Another case is of Triple Talaq ban, where for many decades, many tried for internal religion reforms. So when that doesn't happen, it's important for the law and government to do the necessary thing for their people rights.

[sandeep]

17 minutes ago, someone said:

Asking uncomfortable questions

I do not see "asking questions".  I see anecdotes used to attack, denigrate people.  Used to justify bigotry.

 

18 minutes ago, someone said:

it's important for the law and government to do the necessary thing for their people rights.

Yes it is, but it has to be coupled with appropriate messaging.  When you pass the 'right' laws, but market it politically to demonstrate 'superiority' and imposition of will, you are inviting resistance.  

[someone]

5 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I do not see "asking questions".  I see anecdotes used to attack, denigrate people.  Used to justify bigotry.

 

Yes it is, but it has to be coupled with appropriate messaging.  When you pass the 'right' laws, but market it politically to demonstrate 'superiority' and imposition of will, you are inviting resistance.  

That's your own opinion, where you feel scared of offending certain community. There are genuine questions about how some women are seen as baby creating machines. And if such community cannot bring it's own reforms, the laws and government should do more to protect such women.  And politics and superiority works both ways, where some just reproduce for benefits in the numbers game....

 

 

[sandeep]

9 minutes ago, someone said:

hat's your own opinion, where you feel scared of offending certain community.

Correction - I am offended by vile expressions of prejudice.  You are fantasizing and fabricating 'fear' where there is none, because it suits your perspective.

Edited February 29, 2020 by sandeep

[sandeep]

6 minutes ago, someone said:

And politics and superiority works both ways, where some just reproduce for benefits in the numbers game....

 

Textbook example of vile prejudice - especially nonsensical.  What 'benefits' does a community get from having too many children? in what "numbers game"? Do you know how expensive it is to raise kids?  These decisions are invariably a result of misguided ignorance, and the families, including those children, pay an economic price for them.  

 

But a bogeyman of "rapidly increasing population" is handy when it comes to stoking and cultivating bigotry.  You are indulging in bigotry, and trying to justify it with a mask of "asking uncomfortable questions".  And when called out on it, are making empty speculations about the motives of your opponent. Its classic strawman and shifting goalposts.  

 

I'd urge you to step back and reconsider your own words, think them through.  But something tells me, that its unlikely.

[PunterLog]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

What 'benefits' does a community get from having too many children? in what "numbers game"? Do you know how expensive it is to raise kids?  These decisions are invariably a result of misguided ignorance, and the families, including those children, pay an economic price for them.  

 

But a bogeyman of "rapidly increasing population" is handy when it comes to stoking and cultivating bigotry.  You are indulging in bigotry, and trying to justify it with a mask of "asking uncomfortable questions".  And when called out on it, are making empty speculations about the motives of your opponent. Its classic strawman and shifting goalposts.  

 

I'd urge you to step back and reconsider your own words, think them through.  But something tells me, that its unlikely.

The benefit they get is "Ideological". You'd be surprised to know how far many Muslims go for their faith. They'll self sacrifice themselves in order to serve their god. They'd rather stay in poverty and raise 10 kids than raise 2 kids with decent circumstances. You are obviously someone that's not exposed to such behavior and you are projecting a logical view point onto an idelogical choice.

 

Demography changes aren't a bogeyman. You should take a look at the demography change that happened in "Lebanon" in the last 50 years. The country was Christian majority and was boasting about being secular in the middle east and look at it's state right now. During the Shaheeen Bhag protests there were quite a few Muslim women who were openly talking about outnumbering Hindus and then killing them one by one. How do you think a regular Muslim stay at home wife gets such ideas from?

 

You are a typical left wing poster with good intentions but your opinions hold no ground in reality. It's also because of people like you, that we'll have millions of deaths in the coming decades in this country. People like you let the monster grow into a threat instead of nipping it in it's infancy.

 

If you think i'm being way too dramatic, can you name some Islamic majority countries that are truly secular and treats it's minorities with dignity?

[someone]

10 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Textbook example of vile prejudice - especially nonsensical.  What 'benefits' does a community get from having too many children? in what "numbers game"? Do you know how expensive it is to raise kids?  These decisions are invariably a result of misguided ignorance, and the families, including those children, pay an economic price for them.  

 

But a bogeyman of "rapidly increasing population" is handy when it comes to stoking and cultivating bigotry.  You are indulging in bigotry, and trying to justify it with a mask of "asking uncomfortable questions".  And when called out on it, are making empty speculations about the motives of your opponent. Its classic strawman and shifting goalposts.  

 

I'd urge you to step back and reconsider your own words, think them through.  But something tells me, that its unlikely.

That's horribly naive. I feel for you honestly. You are just scared of offending others. We have caste and plenty of vile issues, yet we don't complain that it's prejudice. There are problems within our own community, and we have done and are still doing reforms to solve it. But what about the other religion? Their religious leaders completed failed with the recent Triple Talaq issue, and it was only the government who did the ban to protect the women. So what about using women as just baby creating machines? It's not a innocent mistake or misguided when one keeps reproducing at such  rates...

 

Just denying the problem, doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist. Similarly, because you don't want to see/hear uncomfortable questions, it makes you weak. 

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, PunterLog said:

The benefit they get is "Ideological". You'd be surprised to know how far many Muslims go for their faith. They'll self sacrifice themselves in order to serve their god. They'd rather stay in poverty and raise 10 kids than raise 2 kids with decent circumstances. You are obviously someone that's not exposed to such behavior and you are projecting a logical view point onto an idelogical choice.

So? They will pay an economic price for their ideological choice.  

 

Btw I have plenty of 'exposure' for such thinking.  Orthodox jews also exhibit similar ideological choices when it comes to having kids.  

 

My point is that such ideological choices are misguided and wrong - and if you wish to discuss the macroeconomic impact of such indvidual choices, or the higher probability of such choices within a certain subset of the population, that can be done without mincing words, but without resorting to bigotry.  

[sandeep]

5 minutes ago, PunterLog said:

Demography changes aren't a bogeyman. You should take a look at the demography change that happened in "Lebanon" in the last 50 years. The country was Christian majority and was boasting about being secular in the middle east and look at it's state right now.

Please educate yourself on the ethnopolitical history of Lebanon, before regurgitating nonsense talking points.  

 

7 minutes ago, PunterLog said:

You are a typical left wing poster with good intentions but your opinions hold no ground in reality. It's also because of people like you, that we'll have millions of deaths in the coming decades in this country. People like you let the monster grow into a threat instead of nipping it in it's infancy.

 

If you think i'm being way too dramatic, can you name some Islamic majority countries that are truly secular and treats it's minorities with dignity?

You are free to speculate and bucket me into whatever nonsense label you come up with.  I DGAF.  

 

Any idiot who either dreams, or is worried about hindus becoming minority in India, today or a hundred years from now - is an idiot.  Whether its some illiterate mullah, or a fearmongering bigot like you.  Both are mirror images of the same bigotry.  And both deserve my contempt.  

[PunterLog]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

Please educate yourself on the ethnopolitical history of Lebanon, before regurgitating nonsense talking points.  

 

You are free to speculate and bucket me into whatever nonsense label you come up with.  I DGAF.  

 

Any idiot who either dreams, or is worried about hindus becoming minority in India, today or a hundred years from now - is an idiot.  Whether its some illiterate mullah, or a fearmongering bigot like you.  Both are mirror images of the same bigotry.  And both deserve my contempt.  

Hindus won't become a minority in India, but i hope you are young enough to see what'll happen in Bengal & Kerala in the coming decades.

 

How does a Muslim housewife get the thought of outbreeding Hindus and killing them, if it isn't something that's discussed in their household?

 

If i'm wrong, i'll agree that i'm a bigot. If i'm right, i'll consider you a naive virtue signaling sjw that likes to throw around Ad hominems.

 

 

[sandeep]

4 minutes ago, PunterLog said:

How does a Muslim housewife get the thought of outbreeding Hindus and killing them, if it isn't something that's discussed in their household?

I have heard similarly bigoted things about muslims from plenty of hindu housewives - some in my own extended family.  So there is no monopoly on hatred in just "those people".  

 

5 minutes ago, PunterLog said:

If i'm wrong, i'll agree that i'm a bigot. If i'm right, i'll consider you a naive virtue signaling sjw that likes to throw around Ad hominems.

 

You can consider me whatever you want, I DGAF.  I reserve the right to call out ignorance, falsehoods, and bigotry when I see it, and have the time and inclination to do so.  

 

I'm bothering to do so - because I care a little bit about this forum, and it saddens me to see it polluted with a handful of bigots who keep reinforcing each other and get into that cycle of raising the volume and intensity of said bigotry.  And some of you are younger than me, still sounding like Unkils on Whatsapp.  Its pathetic.

[sandeep]

22 minutes ago, someone said:

That's horribly naive. I feel for you honestly. You are just scared of offending others. We have caste and plenty of vile issues, yet we don't complain that it's prejudice. There are problems within our own community, and we have done and are still doing reforms to solve it. But what about the other religion? Their religious leaders completed failed with the recent Triple Talaq issue, and it was only the government who did the ban to protect the women. So what about using women as just baby creating machines? It's not a innocent mistake or misguided when one keeps reproducing at such  rates...

 

Just denying the problem, doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist. Similarly, because you don't want to see/hear uncomfortable questions, it makes you weak. 

Using social issues to stereotype and badmouth an entire set of people is weakness, not strength.  Take a bigot out of his majoritarian land, make him live as a minority anywhere else on the planet, he will suddenly realize the error of his ways.  But frogs that can stay in their own little wells, stay ignorant.  And no amount of croaking will make their silly assertions any less silly.