'Full-strength' Australia in 2020-21 will be 'bigger challenge' for India - Sourav Ganguly

[Suhaan]

5 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

Great post. This applies to every sphere of life in India including politics. Ideally if Kohli loses either the T20 WC or this series he should be made to step down.

Kohli has been hapless in loi cricket but has done well as test captain,so can't call for his head if we loose(provided if we narrowly loose) ,but agree he should be held accountable for the loses where we expect him to win,there should be space for criticism as well

Edited January 2, 2020 by Suhaan

[Stan AF]

Just now, Suhaan said:

Kohli has been hapless in loi cricket but has done well as test captain,so can't call for his head if we loose ,but agree he should be held accountable for the loses where we expect him to win,there should be space for criticism as well

Sorry i meant if he loses NZ and aus test series this year.

[bhakum20]

i’ll be more interested in comparative performances of aussie bowlers vs india bowlers, assuming bumrah is back.

 

It’s a great chance for bumrah and shami to leap to the top of the test bowling table.

 

I’m not convinced about cummins being no. 1 bowler, seems one-dimensional with his dismissals. Bumrah and shami have displayed way more skill

[express bowling]

22 minutes ago, bhakum20 said:

i’ll be more interested in comparative performances of aussie bowlers vs india bowlers, assuming bumrah is back.

 

It’s a great chance for bumrah and shami to leap to the top of the test bowling table.

 

I’m not convinced about cummins being no. 1 bowler, seems one-dimensional with his dismissals. Bumrah and shami have displayed way more skill

 

Agree.

[Real McCoy]

Thank you captain obvious

[express bowling]

39 minutes ago, bhakum20 said:

i’ll be more interested in comparative performances of aussie bowlers vs india bowlers, assuming bumrah is back.

 

It’s a great chance for bumrah and shami to leap to the top of the test bowling table.

 

I’m not convinced about cummins being no. 1 bowler, seems one-dimensional with his dismissals. Bumrah and shami have displayed way more skill

 

 

The 3 Indian fast bowlers completely outbowled the 3 Aussie seamers in their own den in the test series in 2018-19.

 

 

Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
JJ Bumrah (INDIA)	4	8	157.1	48	357	21	6/33	9/86	17.00	2.27	44.9	1	0
I Sharma (INDIA)	3	6	103.0	21	262	11	4/41	5/86	23.81	2.54	56.1	0	0
Mohammed Shami (INDIA)	4	8	136.4	28	419	16	6/56	6/136	26.18	3.06	51.2	1	0
PJ Cummins (AUS)	4	7	145.0	29	389	14	6/27	9/99	27.78	2.68	62.1	1	0
JR Hazlewood (AUS)	4	7	152.1	51	398	13	3/52	4/90	30.61	2.61	70.2	0	0
MA Starc (AUS)	4	7	138.5	26	449	13	3/40	5/103	34.53	3.23	64.0	0	0

 

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=10;qualval1=wickets;spanmax1=15+Jan+2019;spanmin1=15+Nov+2018;spanval1=span;team=2;team=6;template=results;type=bowling

[bhakum20]

@express bowling yep exactly.

 

the excuse of smith/warner not being there doesn’t explain why aussie bowlers underperformed in their own backyard, that too against a so-so batting unit that failed in Eng and SA

[putrevus]

On 1/1/2020 at 11:27 PM, express bowling said:

 

Till the IPL franchises became unusually powerful and " cloutful ", even top cricket players used to be criticized if they were underperforming or said something over the top. Kapil got dropped after hitting one irresponsible shot. 

 

In the last few years, the big players from India have become immune to criticism. No matter what they do or how they perform, there is a big machinery praising them non stop. And top commentators and ex-players are part of this machinery.  Everyone is afraid to come out with fair criticism even.   Even big journalists don't come up with tough interviews. 

 

Almost every " big voice " has become cheer leaders of the big cricketers. We don't get to hear or read fair criticism even. 

 

In this scenario, we need some big voices to come out with fair criticism and point out the obvious flaws.  

 

It is good that Ganguly is doing it. Need more people to join him. 

If Ganguly did not bring himself or his team of 2003-04 into equation and offered constructive criticism of the team, it would have been fine.But this nonsense of '"When I became a captain, one of our aims was to compete with the best. And I remember, 2003 in Australia against that Australia, we were outstanding."

 

All Ganguly's team did was score runs against a very weak bowling attack on flat decks.

 

BTW Kapil getting dropped for that shot was ridiculous.80s was most useless period in Indian cricket, they were swapping captains for no reason.

 

Other than Dhoni and Sachin which big player has been immune to criticism. 

[Suhaan]

24 minutes ago, putrevus said:

If Ganguly did not bring himself or his team of 2003-04 into equation and offered constructive criticism of the team, it would have been fine.But this nonsense of '"When I became a captain, one of our aims was to compete with the best. And I remember, 2003 in Australia against that Australia, we were outstanding."

 

All Ganguly's team did was score runs against a very weak bowling attack on flat decks.

 

BTW Kapil getting dropped for that shot was ridiculous.80s was most useless period in Indian cricket, they were swapping captains for no reason.

 

Other than Dhoni and Sachin which big player has been immune to criticism. 

Kohlis team got humiliated against one of the weakest Eng side in Eng

And failed in Sa too

What has kohli achieved so far in away tours apart from winning against a weakened Aussie team?

Kohli for all his stupid  decisions as captain is immune to criticism,if you can't see that ,then you are one of his cutest gullible fan

[putrevus]

28 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Kohlis team got humiliated against one of the weakest Eng side in Eng

And failed in Sa too

What has kohli achieved so far in away tours apart from winning against a weakened Aussie team?

Kohli for all his stupid  decisions as captain is immune to criticism,if you can't see that ,then you are one of his cutest gullible fan

Clive Lloyd's team got beat 5-1 by Australia in 1976 and then got beat by India when they chased 400 plus in  1976 that too at home.Any team has to undergo that process of learning to win. During that procees they eliminate weaklinks in the team.What you do after that counts.

Who said England team was weak.They did not fail in SA.Not winning is not equal to failing.That England team would beat any Indian team in their history on those pitches.Stop equating results to performances. 

Ganguly's team after that hard earned 1-1 draw  against Aussies had their one glory of 2-1 in Pakistan and then faded away.If Kohli's team do the same then you have your point.I don't think it will happen because unlike Ganguly , Kohli  is not scared to play on any sort of pitch and performs as a batsman in the team also.

 

I am fan of Indian cricket and I have seen most Indian captains. Kohli is not my relative but I beileve that this guy is the best captain India ever had as he leads the team from performing. This Indian team has the ability to sustain their performances as they have the tools to compete and win against any team anywhere.

 

They don't have to depend on miracles or one off performances to win test matches.If you know history of Indian cricket you would understand what I mean by that sentence.

 

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by putrevus

[Suhaan]

2 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Clive Lloyd's team got beat 5-1 by Australia in 1976 and then got beat by India when they chased 400 plus in  1976 that too at home.Any team has to undergo that process of learning to win. During that procees they eliminate weaklinks in the team.What you do after that counts.

Who said England team was weak.They did not fail in SA.Not winning is not equal to failing.That England team would beat any Indian team in their history on those pitches.Stop equating results to performances. 

Ganguly's team after that hard earned 1-1 draw  against Aussies had their one glory of 2-1 in Pakistan and then faded away.If Kohli's team do the same then you have your point.I don't think it will happen because unlike Ganguly , Kohli  is not scared to play on any sort of pitch and performs as a batsman in the team also.

 

I am fan of Indian cricket and I have seen most Indian captains. Kohli is not my relative but I beileve that this guy is the best captain India ever had as he leads the team from performing. This Indian team has the ability to sustain their performances as they have the tools to compete and win against any team anywhere.

 

 

Kohli is a good test captain but don't get overboard while glorifying him,he himself knows that he hasn't done much overseas barring beating the depleted Aussies

why would not i equate results with performances,it is the results that matter,you sound more like those who say process matters more than the results

Not denying he has resources to get wins in away tours and seal himself as the best test captain ever but his selections have failed him more than others,people will remember him for results nobody will give a damn about performance

The 4-1 pasting he got in Eng was no different to Dhonis ,he didn't learn further got Rohit in SA who is notorious for his inability to play swing in overseas conditions against red ball

Expecting more from this team as per their capability is not too much to ask for

[putrevus]

8 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Kohli is a good test captain but don't get overboard while glorifying him,he himself knows that he hasn't done much overseas barring beating the depleted Aussies

why would not i equate results with performances,it is the results that matter,you sound more like those who say process matters more than the results

Not denying he has resources to get wins in away tours and seal himself as the best test captain ever but his selections have failed him more than others,people will remember him for results nobody will give a damn about performance

The 4-1 pasting he got in Eng was no different to Dhonis ,he didn't learn further got Rohit in SA who is notorious for his inability to play swing in overseas conditions against red ball

Expecting more from this team as per their capability is not too much to ask for

3-1 and 4-1 are totally different if you don't understand that difference  then your understanding of the game is different .I look beyond results.

[Suhaan]

3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

3-1 and 4-1 are totally different if you don't understand that difference  then your understanding of the game is different .I look beyond results.

Glad that you corrected the actual scoreline 

[putrevus]

9 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Glad that you corrected the actual scoreline 

There is nothing to correct, those are the results.

[ganeshran]

Worst thing about Indian cricket is that it is full of cheerleaders and no one is willing to call a spade a spade. 

 

All these ex cricketers barring a few are expert bcci bootlickers because otherwise they are cut off the teat. Last year manju called Jaddu a bits and pieces cricketer and jadeja fired back even though he is a limited white ball cricketer. Everyone has gotten used to constantly having their d**ks sucked by a pliant group of pundits and media. 

 

I'm glad that ganguly has decided to be honest and Kohli should take both positive and negative feedback equally well. He is on the cusp of being an ATG captain but has to win an overseas tour in SA/ENG and an ICC trophy in the next 4 years before the team goes into rebuilding phase. 

[SrinjayDutta]

People who are arguing that the 2003-04 Australian bowling line up was weak, have no idea or clue how good stuart mcgill was, particularly in australian conditions. Both Gillespie and lee would be considered big threats and although andy bichel is not a great bowler, he was in great nick in the year 2003. Just like india had played a weakened australian batting unit in 2018, same can be argued for the 2003. I have not seen a worst Australian batting line up in my lifetime, and i am watching cricket from 1999. Also, there is a concept of mentality. India have a good ( actually incredible) record in home currently and people argue that we can beat teams with a b - line up at home with shaw, gill etc. Then you have no idea what beating australia in australia in 2003-04 would have meant, even a single test match. Australia, for the most part in 2000-07 was a statistical anomaly. People would have given up hope before the matches began against them. There has been no other team considered overwhelming favourites to win test series in india, in 30 years barring the 2000-01 yeam that visited. So, please dont compare series across eras like that.

 

Whatever the team is, a test series win (and test matches win) against australia is the pinnacle of achievement for subcontinental teams. Ganguly has right to brag. Against him, i have one argument is the bcci president must not argue about past glories, also he should comment less about on field matters. His focus should be on administrative things: NCA, first class cricket, relation with other boards icc, 1st class, grounds, and getting a good bunch of selectors and a good policy.

Ganguly is a very shrewd and political person and very much focused on earning money through a lot of ways. He has good relations with the left, TMC and BJP, which is kind of a miracle.People living in kolkata would know the most about these things.ICFers in general here are probably not aware, that he hosts a immensely popular bengali quiz show for 11 years. I see no point him doing that even after he has become the bcci prez, also both he and his wife have incredible ancestral assets. There are a lot of flaws in him as a bengali, I do not like and admire, but there is no way I would agree to belittle his or the team's achievement in that 2003-04 tour.

 

Jayant lele, mcgrath etc had predicted 3-0 for aus. In 2018, the general consensus was ind should win and it was a golden opportunity.  Cross era comparisons need to be done very carefully. The current biwlung line up is incomprehensibly good for a 90s 2000s fan.Similarly this is still one of the worse indian batting line up against quality test match spin bowling. People jumping on the new player bandwagon: has mayank played great innings under swinging conditions against broad anderson or chasing 300 in 4th innings in a hard bouncy SA pitch? What has shaw achieved so far in his career? Let them play first in over 1 2 years across all conditions and then hype. I dont like the idea of rohit sharma opening, but we have only 2 test match till the aus tour. Cannot comprehend shaw opening there, within 2 test matches.

[SrinjayDutta]

Kohli's test captaincy is much better compared to odis. But his main trump card there is mainly a mental aggressiveness which he channels throuh the team. A very good thing as a captain, and very hard to compute quantitatively. But tactically he is really poor sometimes even in test cricket, or one can argue he does political cliquing. Many a times you will see catches going through first slip where there is a solitary second slip. There were some terrible team selections costing us crucial away series in 2018. He bowled hardik pandya through a very crucial juncture in Southampton which i think is the reason we lost that test. Also, a captain is as good as his bowlers. In spite of this, i will agree to call him one of the greatest indian test captain, because of his stats, and the hunger he brings in the team. But lets not go overboard with his success and beliitle bygone eras.

[Suhaan]

16 hours ago, putrevus said:

There is nothing to correct, those are the results.

Yes, exactly

[Stan AF]

Kohli cannot take the hard decisions as a captain. he can never take one. He couldn't even bring himself to drop dhawan as he's too close to certain players.

1 hour ago, SrinjayDutta said:

Kohli's test captaincy is much better compared to odis. But his main trump card there is mainly a mental aggressiveness which he channels throuh the team. A very good thing as a captain, and very hard to compute quantitatively. But tactically he is really poor sometimes even in test cricket, or one can argue he does political cliquing. Many a times you will see catches going through first slip where there is a solitary second slip. There were some terrible team selections costing us crucial away series in 2018. He bowled hardik pandya through a very crucial juncture in Southampton which i think is the reason we lost that test. Also, a captain is as good as his bowlers. In spite of this, i will agree to call him one of the greatest indian test captain, because of his stats, and the hunger he brings in the team. But lets not go overboard with his success and beliitle bygone eras.

 

[Nikola]

It's simple if you got to win in aus then you need to drop bits and pieces player like pandya first. He was big reason for our test series loss in eng and sa. Never allowed us to play balanced side. Drop that crap quickly else pay the penalty. 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Nikola