Match Thread : India v/s New Zealand XI Practice Match at Hamilton

[Suhaan]

37 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

This is 2020. Despite all the hype his strike rate in domestic is 60.  Avesh khan 44, Prasid Krishna 44 Gurbani 47 Sandeep warrier 52.  Umesh has a test match strike rate of 50. He has so far played only in Australia not in SA or NZ.  Ishant played 7 of the 8 matches that Umesh played in Australia. He averages exactly the same as Umesh in Australia.  They mostly bowled to guys like Warner, Ponting, Clarke, Smith, Hussey on flat roads.  Pretty sure Saini would have been taken apart as well there.

Problem with Umesh is he struggles with Kookaburra and has a tendency to bowl straight legs no matter what are the conditions

Saini is better than Umesh in that aspect,the batsmen you have named Umesh bowled to were exceptional,they were legends of the game even Ishant bowled pretty badly there,you can't predict what Saini could have done there 

Yes Saini hasn't set the world on fire,but he should have been tried before in home tests,but i believe he can do well in tests than t20s,needs to work on his lengths as he does serves half vollies in between good deliveries

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

That is the case for Rajpoot and so many other bowlers. You have to use certain barometers to select bowlers. Not randomly. 

 

Saini was not selected randomly.

 

He performed really well and took fifers in both  the semi final and final matches of  the 2017-18 Ranji Season. Then performed in A-series games. His high speeds of 137 kph to 153 kph was something that was special too. 

 

This earned him a test squad berth against Afghanistan in April 2018. 

 

But he kept on warming the bench.

 

Any pacer who can bowl 145 k+ with accuracy and seam movement is going to be in demand for international matches.

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

This is 2020. Despite all the hype his strike rate in domestic is 60.  Avesh khan 44, Prasid Krishna 44 Gurbani 47 Sandeep warrier 52.  Umesh has a test match strike rate of 50. He has so far played only in Australia not in SA or NZ.  Ishant played 7 of the 8 matches that Umesh played in Australia. He averages exactly the same as Umesh in Australia.  They mostly bowled to guys like Warner, Ponting, Clarke, Smith, Hussey on flat roads.  Pretty sure Saini would have been taken apart as well there.

Saini plays most of his FC games at Kotla and Palam which are graveyards for fast bowlers. Gurbani with his lack of pace was a dud for India A. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 hours ago, rollingstoned said:

why is umesh so much better in india than abroad though? logic dictates that he should at worst maintain his average in more helpful conditions.

Sg ball...

It doesnt swing much at start so easy to control- umesh looses his line if extra movement is avl even if its green pitch

 

It reverse- umesh is great at reverse

 

Pitches in india after a point has invariable bounce - at his pace its effective

 

He is playing with sg from start so obv more comfortable 

[Ankit_sharma03]

7 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 Umesh did start well in Australia reducing Australia for 24/3 in his first series. He was not a total failure. 

7 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

 

this is 2011

his pace isnt same

his bouncer isnt as effective 

 

he is not the same bowler anymore . ur talking about one tour....the poor record i showed was of 24 matches a huge sample

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

 

So saha also kept wkts in the game 

 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

7 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Saini is a  good defensive bowler. When batsmen try to attack he will get wickets.  Umesh did start well in Australia reducing Australia for 24/3 in his first series. He was not a total failure. Saini has not even done anything worthwhile in domestic. or ODI or T20 or India A. He became famous because of his excellent defensive bowling for RCB.  How can we expect him to do well against international batsmen at test level.  Deepak Chahar is likely to have a better test career than Saini because of the length he bowls and swing he gets.

how is saini defensive ???

Ur comparing white ball cricket with red ball ?

No he was already famous for his pace n bounce in domestic 

Deepak chahar will only have a better career if he plays all his cricket in england .  Swing isnt alone important.....a lot of bowler are successful n relly on seam bowling. 

 

Even if we take ur logic- wkts will be flat and u need bowler to keep it tight .....umesh leaks runs which puts pressure on others. And u need something extra thats pace n bounce on such wkts 

Edited February 15, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[vvvslaxman]

4 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

how is saini defensive ???

Ur comparing white ball cricket with red ball ?

No he was already famous for his pace n bounce in domestic 

Deepak chahar will only have a better career if he plays all his cricket in england .  Swing isnt alone important.....a lot of bowler are successful n relly on seam bowling. 

 

Even if we take ur logic- wkts will be flat and u need bowler to keep it tight .....umesh leaks runs which puts pressure on others. And u need something extra thats pace n bounce on such wkts 

From what i saw Saini is no different when it comes to economy rate in longer games.  He was also leaking runs, As i said Yadav has not bowled in NZ or SA. So we cannot use Kookaburra excuse to discard him. If they use such logic they would not even have him in the squad.  In the 2016 A tour Bumrab bowled worse than Umesh in Australia averaging 52. ON absolute roads against half decent batsman taking wicket in Australia is much harder.  When Bumrah was out, Umesh yadav stepped up last year and helped us maintain our supremacy at home. There is no captain that will drop him cold because we think he has poorer past record with Kookaburra.  Rohit with his record against swing bowling should have never been picked for Tests. He is still playing. Agarwal after horrendous tour to NZ, will not play first Test. But he will play. You have to back your players unless there is someone significantly superior to this guy. Saini is clearly not such a bowler. He is no Bumrah or Shami or Ishant.  One more guy who would lose his spot will be Ashwin if they say Kookaburra is an issue.

Edited February 15, 2020 by vvvslaxman

[Austin 3:!6]

 
So saha also kept wkts in the game 
 
 
 

Saha should be made next captain too.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[sandeep]

10 hours ago, Nikola said:

Over 10 to 19: https://streamable.com/aw4pm
Over 20 to 27: https://streamable.com/dvh3t

 

Uploading atm so wait till it process.

Thanks for doing this - much appreciated!

 

Bumrah looks incisive as usual, good to see.  Umesh also looking his usual self - not so good to see.  He looks a totally different bowler with the SG ball in hand in India.  I think Shami was bowling within himself, but then again, his action is total - weekend uncle trundling up to the crease, and then bam its 140 klicks coming at you, so can't be sure.  

 

India is going to definitely miss Ishant's accuracy and dependability.  If he was there and fully fit, I'd feel a lot more comfortable about India's chances this series.  If Bhuvi was there...

[sandeep]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

When Bumrah was out, Umesh yadav stepped up last year and helped us maintain our supremacy at home. There is no captain that will drop him cold because we think he has poorer past record with Kookaburra.  Rohit with his record against swing bowling should have never been picked for Tests. He is still playing. Agarwal after horrendous tour to NZ, will not play first Test. But he will play. You have to back your players unless there is someone significantly superior to this guy.

Saini has that "kuch nayaa laao" feel for the impatient fans, Umesh has been around for long.  At this point, there is not much to differentiate the 2, and you are absolutely right - you have to be fair and give Umesh a chance - although based on what I saw of the practice game, he's yet to figure out his bowling plans, and lengths for these conditions and this ball.  But neither did Saini come forward and make a strong enough case.  

[sandeep]

10 hours ago, Nikola said:

Over 10 to 19: https://streamable.com/aw4pm
Over 20 to 27: https://streamable.com/dvh3t

 

Uploading atm so wait till it process.

First one worked, other 2 are showing 'processing video'...

[Ankit_sharma03]

16 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

From what i saw Saini is no different when it comes to economy rate in longer games.

In FC

Saini - 2.82

Umesh- 3.34

 

hows is same ?

Quote

 He was also leaking runs, As i said Yadav has not bowled in NZ or SA

So we cannot use Kookaburra excuse to discard him.

But he has played in AUs, BAng, SL where kookabura is used, he has played LOI where kookabura is used . Its not he hasnt played A games with kookabura 

 

A tour to Aus 2014

UT Yadav

2

3

71.4

11

263

6

5/83

5/158

43.83

3.66

71.6

1

0

0

0

 

 

avg of 43 

Quote

If they use such logic they would not even have him in the squad.

squad selection are best left alone ...we have taken dhawan overseas despite numerous failure 

Quote

  In the 2016 A tour Bumrab bowled worse than Umesh in Australia averaging 52. ON absolute roads against half decent batsman taking wicket in Australia is much harder. 

Doesnt matter what they were....u select on today. 

Bumrah improved and umesh hardly which is why there career went diff way 

Quote

When Bumrah was out, Umesh yadav stepped up last year and helped us maintain our supremacy at home.

Umesh was always good at home and bumrah hasnt even played at home , we have won matches with umesh before 

Quote

There is no captain that will drop him cold because we think he has poorer past record with Kookaburra. 

Not sure many around the world has this problem in 1st place but we do differentiate with spinner with ball n condition. 

 

Quote

Rohit with his record against swing bowling should have never been picked for Tests. He is still playing.

Bad xample cant be a justification of another 

Quote

Agarwal after horrendous tour to NZ, will not play first Test. But he will play.

3 poor score in international isnt horrendeous. His body of work has runs in Aus in recent times.

 

But with umesh

Venue	O	M	R	W	5w	10w	Best	Avg	S/R	E/R
Home	731.5	129	2356	96	2	1	6/88	24.54	45.74	3.22
Away	466.4	71	1941	46	1	0	5/93	42.20	60.87	4.16
Overall	1198.3	200	4297	142	3	1	6/88	30.26	50.64	3.59

 

 

I mean look at his avg n eco out of india and its a 24 match sample....u still want backing

 

Quote

You have to back your players unless there is someone significantly superior to this guy. Saini is clearly not such a bowler. He is no Bumrah or Shami or Ishant.  One more guy who would lose his spot will be Ashwin if they say Kookaburra is an issue.

playing 24 games overseas isnt backing ?? n Backing shud have a reason ....umesh problem are so glaring that everyone is pointing out on ICF 

 

Saini looked as good as bumrah shami in LOI he played with them, where have u even seen him bowl that ur drawing such conclusion 

Edited February 15, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[sandeep]

7 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Now a six. Shaw is definitely a sehwag rather than Tendulkar.  If Indian team management is willing to accept that he can be a game changer.  He won't be consistent. But when he comes off he can damage the opposition badly.

Techniques are slightly different, but his mindset and batting method are pure Veeru.  He's looking to attack, every chance he gets.  Even when he plays a defensive shot you can feel that intent.  Just like Veeru.  

 

Man, watching Veeru bat in test cricket was one of the great pleasures of this sport, if Shaw can get anywhere close to what Veeru did in tests - that will be amazing.

[Nikola]

16 minutes ago, sandeep said:

First one worked, other 2 are showing 'processing video'...

yeah i uploaded it but for some reason it never processed. I might upload it again in some time for you.

[sandeep]

17 minutes ago, Nikola said:

yeah i uploaded it but for some reason it never processed. I might upload it again in some time for you.

thats ok, dont worry about it,  

[vvvslaxman]

25 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

In FC

Saini - 2.82

Umesh- 3.34

 

hows is same ?

But he has played in AUs, BAng, SL where kookabura is used, he has played LOI where kookabura is used . Its not he hasnt played A games with kookabura 

 

A tour to Aus 2014

UT Yadav

2

3

71.4

11

263

6

5/83

5/158

43.83

3.66

71.6

1

0

0

0

 

 

avg of 43 

squad selection are best left alone ...we have taken dhawan overseas despite numerous failure 

Doesnt matter what they were....u select on today. 

Bumrah improved and umesh hardly which is why there career went diff way 

Umesh was always good at home and bumrah hasnt even played at home , we have won matches with umesh before 

Not sure many around the world has this problem in 1st place but we do differentiate with spinner with ball n condition. 

 

Bad xample cant be a justification of another 

3 poor score in international isnt horrendeous. His body of work has runs in Aus in recent times.

 

But with umesh

Venue	O	M	R	W	5w	10w	Best	Avg	S/R	E/R
Home	731.5	129	2356	96	2	1	6/88	24.54	45.74	3.22
Away	466.4	71	1941	46	1	0	5/93	42.20	60.87	4.16
Overall	1198.3	200	4297	142	3	1	6/88	30.26	50.64	3.59

 

 

I mean look at his avg n eco out of india and its a 24 match sample....u still want backing

 

playing 24 games overseas isnt backing ?? n Backing shud have a reason ....umesh problem are so glaring that everyone is pointing out on ICF 

 

Saini looked as good as bumrah shami in LOI he played with them, where have u even seen him bowl that ur drawing such conclusion 

He was averaging 31 till Nov 2017. Next 2 years 15 at home. So there is an improvement there even at home. If he was that much of a home track bully he would have been a regular.As i said if we use selective stats from the past against different opposition in different conditions to discard players half the side won't be there. Imagine this "Hey umesh you are not preferred you sucked with kookaburra against warner, smith, ponting in Australia so we won't use you against New zealand team in NZ".  Our spinners should not even be part of the squad when we tour SENA. Moeen Ali, Lyon have outbowled them. Sodhi outbowled both our spinners here. SO why should we retain them. They take a wicket every 25 to 30 overs.

[Ankit_sharma03]

11 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

He was averaging 31 till Nov 2017. Next 2 years 15 at home. So there is an improvement there even at home.

Coz he started having shami from other end and pressure helped eveyrone avg . In last 2 years its an all round attack which gives nothing and chokes opposition. surely he improved at home but no sample to say he improved overseas, the last test he played overseas was good and there was no warner or smith also this time

 

His last test overseas in perth without warner smith

2/78...eco 3.5

0/61...eco 3.5

 

last 2 yrs improvement at home but overseas still nothing good 

Quote

If he was that much of a home track bully he would have been a regular.

he had injury issue in intial years and some times dropped wrongly for overseas form 

Quote

Imagine this "Hey umesh you are not preferred you sucked with kookaburra against warner, smith, ponting in Australia so we won't use you against New zealand team in NZ".

No he even sucked on A tours and SL, BANG with kookabura

why not, arent u using same logic n saying keep mayank out atleast mayank doesnt have a failure sample overseas yet 

Quote

  Our spinners should not even be part of the squad when we tour SENA. Moeen Ali, Lyon have outbowled them. Sodhi outbowled both our spinners here. SO why should we retain them. They take a wicket every 25 to 30 overs.

Coz moeen ali bowls in his home condition, same moeen ali was useless in our home condition 

Lyon is a top bowler who has doesnt have good stats in few countries like ashwin so why discriminate with one 

 

Spinners arent to much of concern overseas as they are support bowler , if they start to perform less in home condition then wud be a problem. And u think both havent been rotated or benched . Atleast ashwin went to county n performed cant say same about umesh in his career

Edited February 15, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03