A wrist spinner for tests

[zen]

Ashwin and Jadeja are mainly good in home conditions. On tours to SENA, they do not look like running through the sides or making a meaningful impact on most occasions. 

 

Ever since 90s, our spinners who rely on home conditions are by and large overshadowed by other team’s spinners except when they play in India. 
 

In the next away series, I hope to see a new spinner in the squad. Ind could be better off with developing a wrist spinner, who can take the pitch out of equation relatively speaking esp. in SENA. 
 

Who are the viable options? And if they can bat well too at #8, there is nothing like it. 

 

 

PS  Since 1990s, away

 

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1990

Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 50

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
SK Warne (AUS)	1992-2006	70	132	3283.3	892	8796	345	7/165	12/246	25.49	2.67	57.1	19	5
M Muralitharan (ICC/SL)	1994-2009	49	76	2630.3	563	7254	252	9/65	16/220	28.78	2.75	62.6	18	6
Shakib Al Hasan (BDESH)	2007-2018	16	26	621.5	97	1847	60	6/33	8/129	30.78	2.97	62.1	5	0
Saeed Ajmal (PAK)	2009-2014	18	34	941.5	169	2535	82	6/42	11/111	30.91	2.69	68.9	6	2
NM Lyon (AUS)	2011-2019	42	80	1655.3	302	5099	162	8/50	9/161	31.47	3.08	61.3	7	0
Saqlain Mushtaq (PAK)	1995-2003	19	32	1013.1	236	2649	84	6/46	10/187	31.53	2.61	72.3	7	2
Mushtaq Ahmed (PAK)	1990-2001	30	50	1254.0	250	3615	114	7/56	10/171	31.71	2.88	66.0	6	1
R Ashwin (INDIA)	2011-2020	27	47	1140.5	201	3395	106	7/83	10/160	32.02	2.97	64.5	5	1
KA Maharaj (SA)	2016-2019	13	23	588.1	110	1881	58	9/129	12/283	32.43	3.19	60.8	3	1
GP Swann (ENG)	2008-2013	23	43	1159.2	214	3439	106	6/82	10/181	32.44	2.96	65.6	8	1
RA Jadeja (INDIA)	2013-2019	15	27	666.3	128	1893	54	6/138	7/236	35.05	2.84	74.0	2	0
SCG MacGill (AUS)	1998-2008	15	27	582.4	114	1999	57	5/66	9/113	35.07	3.43	61.3	2	0
PR Adams (SA)	1996-2004	23	39	782.2	189	2275	62	7/128	8/139	36.69	2.90	75.7	2	0
Danish Kaneria (PAK)	2003-2010	28	54	1463.5	236	4689	126	7/168	8/204	37.21	3.20	69.7	8	0
A Kumble (INDIA)	1990-2008	61	107	3107.5	628	8989	240	8/141	12/279	37.45	2.89	77.6	10	1
Yasir Shah (PAK)	2015-2019	18	32	877.5	118	3045	81	7/76	10/141	37.59	3.46	65.0	8	1
AF Giles (ENG)	2000-2006	27	46	1090.2	243	2978	79	5/67	8/132	37.69	2.73	82.8	3	0
N Boje (SA)	2000-2006	21	36	843.3	167	2466	65	5/62	8/134	37.93	2.92	77.8	3	0
DL Vettori (ICC/NZ)	1997-2012	45	69	2027.4	450	5409	141	6/64	8/229	38.36	2.66	86.2	8	0
Harbhajan Singh (INDIA)	1998-2015	39	69	1620.0	242	5025	124	7/120	10/153	40.52	3.10	78.3	7	1
MM Ali (ENG)	2015-2019	23	38	812.5	127	2751	63	4/36	8/137	43.66	3.38	77.4	0	0
HMRKB Herath (SL)	2004-2018	30	50	1237.0	187	3627	83	5/79	9/128	43.69	2.93	89.4	3	0
MS Panesar (ENG)	2006-2013	26	43	1085.0	245	3165	72	6/81	11/210	43.95	2.91	90.4	4	1
PCR Tufnell (ENG)	1990-2000	28	47	1284.3	359	2974	66	7/47	11/147	45.06	2.31	116.7	2

Edited February 24, 2020 by zen

[Prabhdeep Singh]

S Gopal, good record in first class cricket. But has had a bad season this year.

 

Added bonus can bat also. Usually bowls on a flat tracks  at Bangalore.

[Vilander]

its frustrating to see Ashwin or Jadeja bowl in SENA, you can understand the ball does not do much but why is (more in case of Ashwin) the loop not as good as when he does it at home( jadeja is pretty flat everywhere in that respect) thats in the air. 

[Cricket_Fan]

Lyon bowls pretty well in SENA and he is not a wrist spinner. 

[zen]

16 minutes ago, Cricket_Fan said:

Lyon bowls pretty well in SENA and he is not a wrist spinner. 

We know that! .... This thread is about Ind spinners abroad and discovering talented wrist spinners who can take the pitch out of equation relatively speaking (but if there are other great upcoming talented spinners besides wrist spinners who can do that, you can list those too)

Edited February 25, 2020 by zen

[Cricwala]

5 hours ago, Vilander said:

its frustrating to see Ashwin or Jadeja bowl in SENA, you can understand the ball does not do much but why is (more in case of Ashwin) the loop not as good as when he does it at home( jadeja is pretty flat everywhere in that respect) thats in the air. 

Ashwin needs a mental conditioning coach. He overthinks, loses patience. He has all the tools to succeed in SENA, to match someone like Lyon - but i fear that boat has already sailed. This is where BCCI, our system fails our cricketers by not giving them the tools & support which all top-level sportsmen need. We lack the desire to be the best, and create systems to sustain that.

 

It's why Ganguly's elevation as BCCI prez carries so much hope - he is one guy who realized need for fresh ideas and a good coach (John Wright, even though many ex-cricketers ranted against appointment of foreign coach) right at the start of his captaincy stint, and set his sights on changing India's woeful overseas record.

 

To Ganguly's credit, he was the one who also got Greg Chappell as our next coach (Ganguly had benefitted from Chappel's batting advice before 2003-04 tour). And initially, Chappell did make the right moves - he pushed players out of comfort zones - Ganguly was out of form, Zaheer had stagnated and was unfit, Sehwag & Bhajji too were dropped after mediocre performances... all benefited from being dropped, and came back better players. The Dravid-Chappell era was ultimately one where star culture was truly dealt a big blow and our SENA/WI performances were excellent - 1-0 win in Windies, 1-0 win against a strong England team, narrow 1-2 loss against a strong SAF team (1st time we even won a test there). 

 

Eventually, Chappell's abrasive nature and tendency to over-experiment led to his resignation...the same reason he hasn't lasted for long in coaching/admin roles even in Australian set up.

 

Guys like Dhoni, Kohli are happy with superstardom, with glitzy wins at home.

[rkt.india]

Expecting spinners to win you tests in Sena is delusional.

[rkt.india]

3 hours ago, Cricket_Fan said:

Lyon bowls pretty well in SENA and he is not a wrist spinner. 

Lyon bowls well in Australia in his home conditions where he uses rough very well against right handers.

[Cricwala]

Umm..why have we forgotten Kuldeep - one of 3 Indian spinners to get a 5-wicket haul in SENA in last decade, and that too in just his 2nd SENA match (first match was a brain-dead decision by his captain to play him on a green seamer at Lords)!

 

 

The guy is a genuine match-winner, temporary dip in form notwithstanding, and he can bat decently too.

[Cricwala]

13 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Expecting spinners to win you tests in Sena is delusional.

they usually won't win u games, but wrist spinner will chip in with key breakthroughs + clean up tail, which can be difference between winning and losing in low-scoring games. And on flat tracks which wear & tear as game progresses, they are an important weapon in second innings.

[Cricket_Fan]

22 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Lyon bowls well in Australia in his home conditions where he uses rough very well against right handers.

His average in India, Newzealand and England is actually better than his Australian one.

[nevada]

28 minutes ago, Cricket_Fan said:

His average in India, Newzealand and England is actually better than his Australian one.

I wonder why our spinners(aka Ashwin) can't follow his template of keeping it simple and just consistently landing the ball in the rough outside off. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

Ganguly on kumble overseas performance once said - kumble use to tell us put 500-600 runs on board n ill get u wkts. 

 

To expect spinners to do well overseas we also need to put runs on board. 

[zen]

2 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Ganguly on kumble overseas performance once said - kumble use to tell us put 500-600 runs on board n ill get u wkts. 

 

To expect spinners to do well overseas we also need to put runs on board. 

I hope he is not making fun of Kumble

 

PS IIRC, Kumble said something like that in media too. My reaction at that time probably was that no wonder likes of Murali are rated higher 

Edited February 25, 2020 by zen

[Stan AF]

It's past time where we should give credit to this idea (leg spinners in tests) and entertain it. Bringing leg spinners into the team is what fueled the ODI team's successes post CT 2017. We should groom leg spinners for tests atleast in overseas matches.

[Ankit_sharma03]

18 minutes ago, zen said:

I hope he is not making fun of Kumble

 

PS IIRC, Kumble said something like that in media too. My reaction at that time probably was that no wonder likes of Murali are rated higher 

No thats true....with less runs on board captain start to use spinners defensivly overseas. When kumble was taking wkts in Aus team our batting side also putting runs on board.  Even take headingly test where our batters put runs n then spinners took wkts.

[zen]

Just now, Ankit_sharma03 said:

No thats true....with less runs on board captain start to use spinners defensivly overseas. When kumble was taking wkts in Aus team our batting side also putting runs on board.  Even take headingly test where our batters put runs n then spinners took wkts.

Teams will usually only score 500-600 runs per inng on relatively flat pitches. And if that is the case for Kumble, he should not have played in so many games 

 

Note that SL did not score 500-600 runs for Murali to perform. Kumble is abysmal relatively 

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 minute ago, zen said:

Teams will usually only score 500-600 runs per inng on relatively flat pitches. And if that is the case for Kumble, he should not have played in so many games 

Kumble only became effective overseas after 2003 around that time wkts in aus, eng were good for batting . 

1 minute ago, zen said:

Note that SL did not score 500-600 runs for Murali to perform. Kumble is abysmal relatively 

Will need to check that in detail but here is one example

 

Sl had 591 on board, most days spinners need runs on board . Also guys like murali n kumble had advantage of avg pace attack so their bowling attack use to revolve around them. In case of our spinners now pacers dont even leave wkts for them at home

 

 

 

[zen]

3 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Kumble only became effective overseas after 2003 around that time wkts in aus, eng were good for batting . 

Will need to check that in detail but here is one example

 

Sl had 591 on board, most days spinners need runs on board . Also guys like murali n kumble had advantage of avg pace attack so their bowling attack use to revolve around them. In case of our spinners now pacers dont even leave wkts for them at home

Murali averages 29, Kumble 37 (stats posted) .... problem with Kumble was on most occasions, he failed to show up relative to other great spinners

 

I know the game you posted the video of. I had followed it. Jayasuriya scored a double and Murali picked up 16 wkts. And he took 7-8 wkts in the 1st inng (SL batted 2nd) so that is a bad example for your own point 

 

Again you are posting random stuff, buddy!

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

Murali averages 29, Kumble 37 (stats posted) .... problem with Kumble was on most occasions, he failed to show up relative to other great spinners

yes murali was better, problem with kumble was his peak overseas came late but logic remains same u needs runs overseas mostly to get spinners in play unless ofcourse ur murali or warne who were at diff level and even these guys had their struggle. Murali doesnt have a good record in Aus n Ind and Warne not in India 

For spinners today its tough to win u games overseas in places like SA n ENg which has a lot of spice for pacers to win u games when batsman dont put runs on board