Would India still be a secular nation had Muslims been 80% and Hindus 15%

[coffee_rules]

47 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Sri Sri Sandeep Syed Alhambibuollah Insaan.

 

[zen]

The answer to the thread question is -> No

 

a) The muslim majority in Kashmir wants it to be an Islamic State

b) Pakistan (including BD, the former East Pakistan) - turned itself into an Islamic country 

On the other hand, Nepal, a Hindu nation became secular iirc 

 

At the moment, a large number of countries are either Secular or Islamic. 

[sandeep]

19 minutes ago, someone said:

You have to call a spade a spade. Refusing to acknowledge the problem even exists as it hurts your feelings, is one silly reasoning. In a ideal world, I would have agreed to you. But there are a lot of bad happenings, and it's important to understand such issues instead of living in denial.

 

I judge how one community wants a" veto power" in disguise of secularism, and the protests and violent are against making sure they get their veto power back.

I have no quibbles with calling spade a spade.  And I don't disagree about the veto power stuff.  But it doesn't stop there does it.  Such valid points are couched and sandwiched along with dogwhistles of prejudice.  "They" are causing over population.  "They" are protecting jihadis. and so on.

[MechEng]

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

Sri Sri Sandeep Syed Alhambibuollah.

Inshallah Hindustan pe raj karenge

[coffee_rules]

6 minutes ago, MechEng said:

Inshallah Hindustan pe raj karenge

raj to dharmic word.  Say, Inshallah, Kaafiron pe hukumat karenge

[someone]

20 hours ago, sandeep said:

I have no quibbles with calling spade a spade.  And I don't disagree about the veto power stuff.  But it doesn't stop there does it.  Such valid points are couched and sandwiched along with dogwhistles of prejudice.  "They" are causing over population.  "They" are protecting jihadis. and so on.

Then, ask yourself why? Reality is both online and in physical discussion, there is intimidation, bullying and danger in discussion about certain communities. Whereas, I have actually been to actual events, and forums of the other side, and they are absolutely clear about their hatred, contempt about Hindus.  It's easy for you to sit in-front of your computer, and preach how things are well. Broaden your horizons and actually understand the other side.

[sandeep]

2 hours ago, someone said:

It's easy for you to sit in-front of your computer, and preach how things are well.

Show me where I preached "things are well".  You keep making false claims to justify your stance - might want to think about that.

 

2 hours ago, someone said:

I have actually been to actual events, and forums of the other side, and they are absolutely clear about their hatred, contempt about Hindus. 

I don't give AF about how terrible the "other side" is.  ISIS or greenbros are not my standard.  And I will not silently allow this forum to turn into a mirror image saffron version of those idiots.  Hate is not repelled by hate, it is actually fed and increased by it.  By all means, be blunt and non-PC in expressing opinions, calling out wrong things, but why resort to childish excuses of "they do it, so I'm going to fight bigotry fire with some bigotry fire of my own".  That's retarded is what it is.  And not "reality".  

 

2 hours ago, someone said:

Broaden your horizons and actually understand the other side.

Completely agree.  But 'understanding' is not defined by making broad based generalizations, assumptions and extrapolations.  Deal in hard facts, not conjecture.  That is what the pursuit of knowledge requires. 

[someone]

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

Show me where I preached "things are well".  You keep making false claims to justify your stance - might want to think about that.

 

I don't give AF about how terrible the "other side" is.  ISIS or greenbros are not my standard.  And I will not silently allow this forum to turn into a mirror image saffron version of those idiots.  Hate is not repelled by hate, it is actually fed and increased by it.  By all means, be blunt and non-PC in expressing opinions, calling out wrong things, but why resort to childish excuses of "they do it, so I'm going to fight bigotry fire with some bigotry fire of my own".  That's retarded is what it is.  And not "reality".  

 

Completely agree.  But 'understanding' is not defined by making broad based generalizations, assumptions and extrapolations.  Deal in hard facts, not conjecture.  That is what the pursuit of knowledge requires. 

Is this a English language debate, why are so stuck on linguistics? You would be a laughing stock if that's how you debate. The important thing is the crux. One may call out certain communities, think-tanks, but the fact remains that these are "Breaking India" forces. It is silly from you to just argue on the title names of our enemies, as you just looking at the surface. Next, the CAA-protest is another example of Breaking India forces. We have tried reasoning, common sense but they are adamant in destroying properties and daily lives of common man. There is no easy solution. Next, don't equate Muslim extremists with Hindu groups. You ought to actually go and see the other side events to understand their extremism and Hinduphobia.

 

You come here to preach Hindus and have the freedom here, whereas if you go to the other side, you won't even get a chance and will be outcast. So stop being blind and accept the obvious challenges facing the country. Facts really don't care about your feelings...

 

[sandeep]

11 minutes ago, someone said:

but the fact remains that these are "Breaking India" forces.

pseudo patriotism is the refuge of scoundrels.  That's the fact - when you don't have specific points and facts to make, start shouting "anti national", "breaking India" etc.  

 

11 minutes ago, someone said:

Next, don't equate Muslim extremists with Hindu groups. You ought to actually go and see the other side events to understand their extremism and Hinduphobia.

 

Never did that.  But don't use crime and bigotry of the "other side" to justify stupidity on "your side".  Ironically, what you are doing, is proving the worst on the "other side" right, and making their case stronger.  But you are too busy getting happy from the petty emotional highs of "retaliation" to realize that.

Edited March 20, 2020 by sandeep

[someone]

17 minutes ago, sandeep said:

pseudo patriotism is the refuge of scoundrels.  That's the fact - when you don't have specific points and facts to make, start shouting "anti national", "breaking India" etc.  

 

Never did that.  But don't use crime and bigotry of the "other side" to justify stupidity on "your side".  Ironically, what you are doing, is proving the worst on the "other side" right, and making their case stronger.  But you are too busy getting happy from the petty emotional highs of "retaliation" to realize that.

Again, you can only bring fancy English words to a debate, and unable to explain any details. Breaking India forces are there, unless you live in a lalaland. You again have freedom here to preach Hindus and complain about terms such as "anti-national". But you go all quiet when the other side only starts and ends their debate shouting fascism and bigots. You are no different as you just restrict yourself to such words only.  Are you unable to comprehend, or do you even know other words?

 

 

 

[sandeep]

35 minutes ago, someone said:

Breaking India forces are there, unless you live in a lalaland.

again, never said there aren't.  Difference in the method and approach in combating them.  But you seem to be only interested in shouting and repeating yourself, instead of attempting to understand the point(s) I am trying to make.  Justifying illogical generalizations and bias, by repeatedly shouting "other side" other side, is what I contest.

 

Let's agree to disagree and leave it, no sense or need to unnecessarily fight amongst ourselves and go in circles.  I have made my point, and you have made yours.  

 

We largely agree on the problem and the desired outcome, differences are mainly in attribution of the problem, and how to address it. 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2020 by sandeep

[sandeep]

34 minutes ago, someone said:

But you go all quiet when the other side only starts and ends their debate shouting fascism and bigots.

Another false claim.

[Jimmy Cliff]

@sandeep bhai, is your answer to the question posed by the OP Yes or No? No gol matol answers please.

[sandeep]

18 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

@sandeep bhai, is your answer to the question posed by the OP Yes or No? No gol matol answers please.

No question of "gol matol" the answer is obvious.  There is no nation on earth where muslims have allowed secularism, or even tolerance to flourish, if they have numbers on their side.  

 

The fact that you pose this question to me, this way, clearly shows how you have incorrectly stereotyped me as some sort of apologist for muslims.  I'm under no illusions about Islam and the average's muslim's mindset, potential capacity for extremism.  

However, my belief in the solutions for that problem is markedly different than a lot of vocal folks on this forum.  And just because I acknowledge the problem, does not mean that I will not speak out against overt prejudice.  Which I believe is counter-productive in that it ends up strengthening  the problematic extremists hiding in the muslim populace.

 

A very obvious and current parallel exists with the current Covid19 pandemic.  I unequivocally blame the Chinese govt for their screw up and coverup which led to global spread. And the dangerous food habits of chinese folks are responsible as well.

 

But calling the virus "chinese virus" etc may satisfy the emotional need to assign blame, but in reality is helping the evil CCP regime gather more support from their citizens.  When the international public, media, moron Trump etc start attacking the Chinese 'nation', it will stop the local chinese from rightly criticizing and questioning their govt's failure, and switch them into defensive mode.  Its human nature.  This is why the evil CCP has stepped up its English langauge "propaganda" about accusing US military etc.  They want to elicit backlash from idiots like Trump and more.  They want to turn this into a "us vs them".  Because if they don't, they would be asked questions by the entire planet, AND their own people, as to why the FFFFCK did they sit on this in the early stage and end up causing all this havoc.  

 

Similarly, by tarring all muslims with the jihad brush, being "aggressive" and "truth telling" in attacking the Islamic fundamentalism problem, such actions and words actually end up making the muslim ppl defensive, circling the wagons on their faith and their "tribe".  Which is not in India's or anybody's interest.  The objective is to isolate the fringe, and slowly chip away and make it smaller and smaller. Not to create incentives for the benign or "undecided" muslims to migrate towards the fringe by indulging in our desire to hurl invectives.

Edited March 20, 2020 by sandeep

[coffee_rules]

6 minutes ago, sandeep said:

No question of "gol matol" the answer is obvious.  There is no nation on earth where muslims have allowed secularism, or even tolerance to flourish, if they have numbers on their side.  

Indonesia is pretty secular or at least their leaders are. They are proud of their Hindu ancestry unlike any other Islamic state of the SC.  I think the more they distance themselves from Saudi Arabia/wahabbi sects, and feel conntected to their land/identity, the less radical they will be. 

[someone]

43 minutes ago, sandeep said:

again, never said there aren't.  Difference in the method and approach in combating them.  But you seem to be only interested in shouting and repeating yourself, instead of attempting to understand the point(s) I am trying to make.  Justifying illogical generalizations and bias, by repeatedly shouting "other side" other side, is what I contest.

 

Let's agree to disagree and leave it, no sense or need to unnecessarily fight amongst ourselves and go in circles.  I have made my point, and you have made yours.  

 

We largely agree on the problem and the desired outcome, differences are mainly in attribution of the problem, and how to address it.

 

Congrats, so you know how to write a post, without shouting bigots or fascism. The problem lies that where is your method? It's easy for you to  preach some morale conscience.  Yet, the issues facing the country aren't new, it's happening for decades. So these breaking India forces aren't some misguided people, they are very clear and committed in their objectives.  Reasoning, common sense, education has failed to impact the extremism. With Modi at least, the battle-lines are very clear. There is no religious connotation, as some Hindus are with the other side, whereas some Muslims are on the dharmic side...

 

We can't even remove the anti-CAA rioters, and so your debate over attribution of the problem is irrelevant as long as such things can't been be solved...

Edited March 20, 2020 by someone

[Gollum]

43 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

@sandeep bhai, is your answer to the question posed by the OP Yes or No? No gol matol answers please.

Possible but only in those countries where communism has had an overpowering influence (Central Asia) or under some despot or military dictator (like in Syria/Egypt/Central Asia). But even there it is mostly temporary, extremism (society) in Uzbekistan/Tajikistan is growing at an alarming pace...it does seem like once the effects of communism start waning radical Islam starts manifesting itself. And quite rare, for every Egypt (Sisi's) there are multiple Saudis (yup more than one, for instance Brunei is as bad) and for every Kazakhstan we have Chechnya, Dagestan, Xinjiang, Java.

 

Secular/tolerant democracy in Muslim majority countries is almost impossible, doesn't matter whether it is Pakistan or Maldives. Fault lies in tenets of Islam, the religion is by nature rigid and intolerant and hasn't undergone reformation like other major religions. Anybody who disputes this can not be taken seriously. Forget pan-India scale, this question shouldn't even be entertained until Pandits are relocated in Kashmir valley. There have been numerous riots in India, but never has any community been forced to flee its traditional lands permanently. Even the worst affected victims in Gujarat or Muzaffarnagar managed to go back to their cities/towns/villages after a few months, latest after a couple of years. The melancholy of Pandits has no equal in India, libbus stayed silent for so long, never forget, never forgive. 

Edited March 20, 2020 by Gollum

[Gollum]

25 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Indonesia is pretty secular or at least their leaders are. They are proud of their Hindu ancestry unlike any other Islamic state of the SC.  I think the more they distance themselves from Saudi Arabia/wahabbi sects, and feel conntected to their land/identity, the less radical they will be. 

True a few decades back, no longer the case. Wahhabism has made major inroads in that country. 

[sandeep]

27 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Indonesia is pretty secular or at least their leaders are. They are proud of their Hindu ancestry unlike any other Islamic state of the SC.  I think the more they distance themselves from Saudi Arabia/wahabbi sects, and feel conntected to their land/identity, the less radical they will be. 

The country where a woman got lashes as punishment for complaining about loudspeaker azaans?  Not secular - only looks awesome compared to the crazy extremist ones.  

[Gollum]

We are aware of state of affairs in Afg, Pak, BD. But what about Maldives? Small, often forgotten country, less than half a million population. Is it a secular democracy? Tolerant? Ghanta. Only Muslims can be citizens there, practice of faith other than Islam is banned in the country....even Pakistan isn't half as bad. I think even Shia Islam is banned. And yeah, apostasy/blasphemy mean death sentence with no chance of escaping. They look like Mallus and behave like Saudis, then have the nerve to lecture India about tolerance and treatment of minorities.