Why are soldiers considered infallible?

[Franco Vazquez]

In every country you go, Army and especially the soldiers are considered like Gods or infallible especially in countries like Pakistan and India. My question is why? Everyone knows about army's shenanigans, they are involved in extrajudicial killings, harassment, rape etc then why do people consider them to be infallible or get mad when some of them get martyred or killed? Like its their job to serve for the country, no one forces them to join army unless there is conscription in that country

[BacktoCricaddict]

1 hour ago, Franco Vazquez said:

In every country you go, Army and especially the soldiers are considered like Gods or infallible especially in countries like Pakistan and India. My question is why? Everyone knows about army's shenanigans, they are involved in extrajudicial killings, harassment, rape etc then why do people consider them to be infallible or get mad when some of them get martyred or killed? Like its their job to serve for the country, no one forces them to join army unless there is conscription in that country

(1) They work in conditions most people would not survive a day in.

(2) They, esp the rank and file soldiers, get paid very little; yes, they get benefits, but it hardly makes up for the low salaries.

(3) They stay away from their families for most of their lives.  

(4) They, esp the rank and file soldiers, have very little freedom to decide their work responsibilities.  "Theirs is not to question why. Theirs is but to do and die."  If they are asked to go kill, plunder, put themselves and others in danger, they do it.  Even if they know that their CO (or worse, their C-in-C) is wrong, they cannot walk away. 

(5) Finally, if a rogue nation or just an a-hole invader tries to come in and plunder your land, they will make the ultimate sacrifice to defend your freedom.

 

Yes, they do volunteer.  Yes, no one is forcing them.  Often, it is a way for them and their families to get out of drudgery and poverty.  But once they are in, most of what they do is not voluntary.  The sacrifices they make far outweigh the fact that they volunteered.  

 

JMHO.

  

[Franco Vazquez]

11 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

(1) They work in conditions most people would not survive a day in.

(2) They, esp the rank and file soldiers, get paid very little; yes, they get benefits, but it hardly makes up for the low salaries.

(3) They stay away from their families for most of their lives.  

(4) They, esp the rank and file soldiers, have very little freedom to decide their work responsibilities.  "Theirs is not to question why. Theirs is but to do and die."  If they are asked to go kill, plunder, put themselves and others in danger, they do it.  Even if they know that their CO (or worse, their C-in-C) is wrong, they cannot walk away. 

(5) Finally, if a rogue nation or just an a-hole invader tries to come in and plunder your land, they will make the ultimate sacrifice to defend your freedom.

 

Yes, they do volunteer.  Yes, no one is forcing them.  Often, it is a way for them and their families to get out of drudgery and poverty.  But once they are in, most of what they do is not voluntary.  The sacrifices they make far outweigh the fact that they volunteered.  

 

JMHO.

  

Then why do they rape and kill innocent women and children? Do their higher up ask them to do that?

[BacktoCricaddict]

4 minutes ago, Franco Vazquez said:

Then why do they rape and kill innocent women and children? Do their higher up ask them to do that?

(1) The actions of a few rapists don't define the whole force.  (2) As for killing, it would not surprise me at all if rogue COs are commanding them to do it.  

[Vilander]

2 hours ago, Franco Vazquez said:

Army and especially the soldiers are considered like Gods or infallible especially in countries like Pakistan and India.

No. In India everyone is equal, no undue god worship of soldiers they are given their due at times though.

 

not in India only in Pakistan don’t hyphenate Pakistani. 

[Franco Vazquez]

2 minutes ago, Vilander said:

No. In India everyone is equal, no undue god worship of soldiers they are given their due at times though.

 

not in India only in Pakistan don’t hyphenate Pakistani. 

In India it happens a lot too. Not as much in Pakistan tho. In Pakistan you could get abducted and disappeared if you talk against them but I have still seen a lot of people do that but remember people getting mad over that one scene in Ekta Kapoor's web series bc it involved an army soldier?

[sandeep]

2 hours ago, Franco Vazquez said:

In every country you go, Army and especially the soldiers are considered like Gods or infallible especially in countries like Pakistan and India. My question is why? Everyone knows about army's shenanigans, they are involved in extrajudicial killings, harassment, rape etc then why do people consider them to be infallible or get mad when some of them get martyred or killed? Like its their job to serve for the country, no one forces them to join army unless there is conscription in that country

While I largely agree with your sentiments, in that overglorification of army is not desirable, please do not put India and Pakistan in the same bucket when it comes to army.

 

Pakistan army has a 60+ year track record of looting and exploiting its own people, its entire country.  Indian army does not.  Even  in J&K, where they have the dreaded 'AFSPA' in place - there is a degree of accountability for the army - 

 

 

[Franco Vazquez]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

While I largely agree with your sentiments, in that overglorification of army is not desirable, please do not put India and Pakistan in the same bucket when it comes to army.

 

Pakistan army has a 60+ year track record of looting and exploiting its own people, its entire country.  Indian army does not.  Even  in J&K, where they have the dreaded 'AFSPA' in place - there is a degree of accountability for the army - 

 

 

You can't deny the fact that Indian soldiers actually raped Kashmiri women and killed innocent civilians as well just like Pakistani army did in Bangladesh and Mukti Bahini did with Bihari women during 1971 war. Allied soldiers did it too and so did Nazis too but at least in the West they are not overglorified like they are in India and Pakistan

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, Franco Vazquez said:

You can't deny the fact that Indian soldiers actually raped Kashmiri women and killed innocent civilians as well just like Pakistani army did in Bangladesh and Mukti Bahini did with Bihari women during 1971 war. Allied soldiers did it too and so did Nazis too but at least in the West they are not overglorified like they are in India and Pakistan

Equating Kashmir with BD is a very convenient strategy of Pakistanis. DO you know how many Kashmiri women and children were raped and killed by Pakistani tribal forces when they attacked and occupied Kashmir in 1947. A lot of them were regular Pakistani Army men disguising as Tribal forces. Sheikh Abdullah who was siding with Pak until then, had to beg to India to come and rescue them from these animals. There is widespread propaganda in Kashmir to believe anything from people who masquerade as supporters of Kashmiri cause. Yes, extra-judicial killings happen when common people try to protect suspected terrorists. These terrorists want to fight behind women and children on purpose. First, tell them not to and fight like what men are supposed.

Edited September 18, 2020 by coffee_rules

[sandeep]

56 minutes ago, Franco Vazquez said:

You can't deny the fact that Indian soldiers actually raped Kashmiri women and killed innocent civilians as well just like Pakistani army did in Bangladesh and Mukti Bahini did with Bihari women during 1971 war. Allied soldiers did it too and so did Nazis too but at least in the West they are not overglorified like they are in India and Pakistan

I do not deny that such incidents have taken place.  But the scale is the point.  The cases in J&K were isolated and happened not as a norm, but an exception.  What happened in Bangladesh, and was carried out systematically by the Pak army, was genocide and organized mass rapes.  I understand that as a Pakistani, you would find it attractive to assert that "mukti bahini" did it too, Indians did it too - but the facts do not support such claims.  

 

Bottomline, even the handful of cases that have occurred in J&K, committed by those who wore the uniform of the Indian army, are despicable shameful and a stain on Indian army.  I am not a blind patriot who will brush it off, in fact my patriotism demands that I acknowledge the crimes.

Edited September 18, 2020 by sandeep

[Real McCoy]

14 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

See, at any time, any mask will come off!  Equating Kashmir with BD is a very convenient strategy of Pakistanis. DO you know how many Kashmiri women and children were raped and killed by Pakistani tribal forces when they attacked and occupied Kashmir in 1947. A lot of them were regular Pakistani Army men disguising as Tribal forces. Sheikh Abdullah who was siding with Pak untile then had to beg to India to come and rescue them from these animals. There is widespread propaganda in Kashmir to believe anything from people who masquerade as supporters of Kashmiri cause. Yes, extra-judicial killings happen when common people try to protect suspected terrorists. These terrorists want to fight behind women and children on purpose. First, tell them not to and fight like what men are supposed.

This is called projecting. He maybe doing it unconsciously. Its how one's world view is formed by observing his own countrymen and thinking others do the same thing while we know Indian army is far more disciplined than paxtan army. There, the army is in charge of the president and justice departments. Here army is subordinate to the PM and supreme court. I would also like to say that the Indian army are no saints but their abuse of power is curtailed.

Also as someone mentioned, the rank and file members are giving up their lives only to get stoned and bombed and they are paid poorly. I gave some money to bharatkeveer during pulwama attacks but isn't the govt that should pay them. After all we pay taxes that are equal to the rates paid in US

[sandeep]

9 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

This is called projecting. He maybe doing it unconsciously. Its how one's world view is formed by observing his own countrymen and thinking others do the same thing while we know Indian army is far more disciplined than paxtan army. There, the army is in charge of the president and justice departments. Here army is subordinate to the PM and supreme court. I would also like to say that the Indian army are no saints but their abuse of power is curtailed.

Also as someone mentioned, the rank and file members are giving up their lives only to get stoned and bombed and they are paid poorly. I gave some money to bharatkeveer during pulwama attacks but isn't the govt that should pay them. After all we pay taxes that are equal to the rates paid in US

Let's be a bit gentle and understanding with little Franco here.  He's still young compared to a lot of us.  And after all, its natural - what do you want him to say, that Pakistanis are especially evil and Indians are awesome?  He has to make certain mental compromises to come to terms with history.  Point out the inconsistencies by all means, but let's be a bit nicer about it.  Its not like he's coming in trolling and hurling silly blind greenbro patriotic attacks at India.

[Franco Vazquez]

16 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I do not deny that such incidents have taken place.  But the scale is the point.  The cases in J&K were isolated and happened not as a norm, but an exception.  What happened in Bangladesh, and was carried out systematically by the Pak army, was genocide and organized mass rapes.  I understand that as a Pakistani, you would find it attractive to assert that "mukti bahini" did it too, Indians did it too - but the facts do not support such claims.  

 

Bottomline, even the handful of cases that have occurred in J&K, committed by those who wore the uniform of the Indian army, are despicable shameful and a stain on Indian army.  I am a blind patriot who will brush it off, in fact my patriotism demands that I acknowledge the crimes.

Even Bangladeshis admit that Mukti Bahni were involved in atrocities against Bihari people too. Of course it was not as much as Pak army against Bangladeshis. The thing is that army soldiers from around the world are involved in war crimes but the different between the West and Asian countries is that the army is not overglorified there like in Pakistan and India.

[Franco Vazquez]

37 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

See, at any time, any mask will come off!  Equating Kashmir with BD is a very convenient strategy of Pakistanis. DO you know how many Kashmiri women and children were raped and killed by Pakistani tribal forces when they attacked and occupied Kashmir in 1947. A lot of them were regular Pakistani Army men disguising as Tribal forces. Sheikh Abdullah who was siding with Pak until then, had to beg to India to come and rescue them from these animals. There is widespread propaganda in Kashmir to believe anything from people who masquerade as supporters of Kashmiri cause. Yes, extra-judicial killings happen when common people try to protect suspected terrorists. These terrorists want to fight behind women and children on purpose. First, tell them not to and fight like what men are supposed.

Tbh Idk much about Kashmir history in 1947. We weren't taught much about it in the history classes, not even in a positive or negative light but the point behind this thread was that soldiers are overglorified in these countries. Everyone talks about their sacrifice but no one talks about the atrocities they carry out against unarmed people and it happens on both sides, You can't say that it doesn't happen in India or Pakistan bc it clearly does. There is no need to be blindfolded and rather acknowledge it. 

[coffee_rules]

33 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

This is called projecting. He maybe doing it unconsciously. Its how one's world view is formed by observing his own countrymen and thinking others do the same thing while we know Indian army is far more disciplined than paxtan army. There, the army is in charge of the president and justice departments. Here army is subordinate to the PM and supreme court. I would also like to say that the Indian army are no saints but their abuse of power is curtailed.

Also as someone mentioned, the rank and file members are giving up their lives only to get stoned and bombed and they are paid poorly. I gave some money to bharatkeveer during pulwama attacks but isn't the govt that should pay them. After all we pay taxes that are equal to the rates paid in US

Yes, I didn't mean to target him. He is a nice guy. I edited my post, but the fact is Pak Military, ISPR and regular Pakistanis run this equivalnce of Pak Army atrocities in Baloch/BD to that of Indian Army in Kashmir as a proaganda material. I don't condone isolated incidents of atrocities in Kashmir by IA, they have to be dealt sternly. But in Kashmir, every day there is a death of security personnel in rank and file. IA is not sacrosanct, but I have my sympathies for the soldiers and police on the ground. If we have public sentiment against them, throwing stones at them, while terrorists fire behind women and children, you can't generalize the situation and compare to what  was in BD/Baloch. 

 

I know about the IPKF atrocities on hapless SL tamils and how they were looted and raped by IPKF. A mere rumor of deploying IPKF got Rajiv Gandhi killed. People need to understand who is the aggressor here in places like Kashmir. 

 

This is not something limited to Ind/Pak. Maybe not in liberal countries like EU/UK, but USA has a high regard for its armed forces. Even during the vietnam crisis, when students and liberals ran a hate campaign against its army, Nixon was overwhelmingly voted in to the govt because large number of people respected their army and didn't like what was projected by media. Although, a lot of it was true. Here, Dems and Repubs have a competition on who backs their defence forces more. Most of bible states, people have US Flags in front of their houses, esp now when there is villification campaign against them regarding BLM. That is who Trump is hoping to win the second term.  Have been on couple flights where when army men (regular rank and file) enter the plane in their fatigues, people start clapping and appreciate their service openly. I wish Indians supported their Army  on a similar scale. 

Edited September 18, 2020 by coffee_rules

[BacktoCricaddict]

9 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

but USA has a high regard for its armed forces. Even during the vietnam crisis, when students and liberals ran a hate campaign against its army, Nixon was overwhelmingly voted in to the govt because large number of people respected their army and didn't like what was projected by media. Although, a lot of it was true. Here, Dems and Repubs have a competition on who backs their defence forces more. Most of bible states, people have US Flags in front of their houses, esp now when there is villification campaign against them regarding BLM. That is who Trump is hoping to win the second term.  Have been on couple flights where when army men (regular rank and file) enter the plane in their fatigues, people start clapping and appreciate their service openly. I wish Indians supported their Army  on a similar scale. 

^^ This, a million times.  I make it a point to do thank them if I run into them in public places and they don't seem busy. 

 

I fly a US flag *and* a BLM yard sign.  IMO, they are not mutually exclusive. 

 

We also have a number of veterans (mostly enlisted rank and file women and men) come to our college to prepare for medical or dental school.  Outstanding human beings every one of them, no exceptions so far.  

Edited September 18, 2020 by BacktoCricaddict

[coffee_rules]

23 minutes ago, Franco Vazquez said:

Tbh Idk much about Kashmir history in 1947. We weren't taught much about it in the history classes, not even in a positive or negative light but the point behind this thread was that soldiers are overglorified in these countries. Everyone talks about their sacrifice but no one talks about the atrocities they carry out against unarmed people and it happens on both sides, You can't say that it doesn't happen in India or Pakistan bc it clearly does. There is no need to be blindfolded and rather acknowledge it. 

Sorry, didn't mean to target you per say. I don't know about Pakistan, in India there are enough people in the media, journalists, secularists, communists, naxals and intelligentsia (like Aroy, Urban Naxals  in JNU who are in teaching faculty, Svaradarajan's wife, JNU tukde-tukde gang), who are calling Indian Army as the occupied force in Kashmir. They are in the payroll of Pak Army, pretty sure Pak Mil is funding them.  In retaliation, regular public have immense respect for IA for their sacrifice. All these people in the media, wants to portray India badly. This is not in this NDA time. This has been going on for 70+ years. Only now, people are fed up of this gang and hence the popularity of NDModi.

Edited September 18, 2020 by coffee_rules

[Real McCoy]

32 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Let's be a bit gentle and understanding with little Franco here.  He's still young compared to a lot of us.  And after all, its natural - what do you want him to say, that Pakistanis are especially evil and Indians are awesome?  He has to make certain mental compromises to come to terms with history.  Point out the inconsistencies by all means, but let's be a bit nicer about it.  Its not like he's coming in trolling and hurling silly blind greenbro patriotic attacks at India.

I was as nice I could allow myself to be without compromising on my beliefs. I even said he maybe unconsciously projecting. I didn't say he was a bad guy but may be miseducated on this topic. And BTW, he maybe younger than you. Don't try to pull me in your age group pal

[Franco Vazquez]

7 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Sorry, didn't mean to target you per say. I don't know about Pakistan, in India there are enough people in the media, journalists, secularists, communists, naxals and intelligentsia (like Aroy, Urban Naxals  in JNU who are in teaching faculty, Svaradarajan's wife, JNU tukde-tukde gang), who are calling Indian Army as the occupied force in Kashmir. They are in the payroll of Pak Army, pretty sure Pak Mil is funding them.  In retaliation, regular public have immense respect for IA for their sacrifice. All these people in the media, wants to portray India badly. This is not in this NDA time. This has been going on for 70+ years. Only now, people are fed up of this gang and hence the popularity of NDModi.

If Pak army had that much money to finance so many people, wouldn't they invest in Pakistan too? I know more about Pakistani army's harkaat than you. They are notorious for not respecting civilians enough and you know the Bangladeshi thing, I am not trying to equate BD atrocities with whats happening in Kashmir, ofc Bangladesh genocide was much worse and its probably the biggest genocide in the history but what I am saying is that it happens everywhere, of course not on the same scale but soldiers do rape and kill innocent civilians, its more like them venting out their frustration on unarmed people and killing and raping them. 

[Real McCoy]

11 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

^^ This, a million times.  I make it a point to do thank them if I run into them in public places and they don't seem busy. 

 

I fly a US flag *and* a BLM yard sign.  IMO, they are not mutually exclusive. 

 

We also have a number of veterans (mostly enlisted rank and file women and men) come to our college to prepare for medical or dental school.  Outstanding human beings every one of them, no exceptions so far.  

You know that is a marxist movement right. You search hard enough and you'll find the Floyd death is a hoax designed to put the cultural marxism on the forefront