Can Hardik Pandya play as a batsman alone in ODIs if he cant bowl anymore?

[Khota]

58 minutes ago, maniac said:

That’s a little below the belt. Feel a little bad for chuckling at that. 

Currently that is the only justification I can come up with. This is online forum and nothing is serious around here. Just enjoy.

[Khota]

3 hours ago, Suhaan said:

What do you want to say? If he has done well with the bat he should not be considered in our setup(loi) as he is not bowling now

Same question to you?

Don't understand why do you hate him?he hasn't bowled as he is coming back from injury they don't want to risk him,it isn't like he will not (bowl) in future

I don't hate anyone. It is about a coveted spot on the team that is being wasted.

[coffee_rules]

3 hours ago, zen said:

In his short career, Pandya has become indispensable as a lower middle order batsman, while we have good top order players in abundance 

 

If a guy bats in lower middle order, he is expected to score at a high SR, where players such as Rohit have failed. And as mentioned, if Pandya gets to play in top order, he can hit 100s too (it won’t be sedate though as his attitude is like Viv Richards and ABDV)

 

The idea that a 100 can has to be hit in sedate manner is laughable and it probably stems from a legacy of following too much Ind cricket, which is hardly an innovation leader and filled with batsmen with an inability to bat like Richards and ABDV (benchmarks for impact LOI batting) 

 

 

 

Do you think IVAR/ABDV was only about slam-bang. They had a good SR, but they built up innings and played percentage cricket as well. Just because Pandya can hit sixes, you can’t push him up the order and say he can do better than Rohit. Even Jadeja having a domestic 300, is not pushed up the order, There is a batting technique involved to show supremacy like IVAR. It is not always hand-eye coordination. Based on pitch conditions, temperament to puck good balls and bad balls. Pandya has shown no inclination to be a top order batsman. You are saying replace Rohit with with Pandya and he can do wonders. There is no such evidence of his ability 

[zen]

2 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Do you think IVAR/ABDV was only about slam-bang. They had a good SR, but they built up innings and played percentage cricket as well. Just because Pandya can hit sixes, you can’t push him up the order and say he can do better than Rohit. Even Jadeja having a domestic 300, is not pushed up the order, There is a batting technique involved to show supremacy like IVAR. It is not always hand-eye coordination. Based on pitch conditions, temperament to puck good balls and bad balls. Pandya has shown no inclination to be a top order batsman. You are saying replace Rohit with with Pandya and he can do wonders. There is no such evidence of his ability 

 

Richards and ABDV play up the order so have more opportunities to play longer innings (I compared their attitude with SDP's). If Richards and ABDV played at #6, they would play at an even higher SR. That is the reason I said that if SDP gets to play up the order, he would get more opportunities to play longer innings (not necessarily sedate ones). It does not mean that he has to play up the order, but that he should be judged based on the position he bats at, the attitude he shows and the potential he has. If he bats up, it is no rocket science that his average will be higher than what it is. The issue is in trying to judge a batsman batting at #6 as if he is playing in the top order (and may be the in the thinking that every batsman in the top 7 should be like a top order batsman when such batsmen when they play lower down, they have to play at a higher SR too and when guys like Rohit have failed doing that, showing the value SDP brings to the table)

 

In his short career -> in Tests has a 100, a 90 odd in SA (in extremely tough battig conditions), a 50 in Eng (won the test for Ind w/ the ball) .... In ODIs, he has 83 against Aus (avg 54 v Aus at a SR of 117), 76 v Pak (avg 61 at a SR of 179), Avg 51 v Eng at a SR of 122 .... in T20s has a 90 odd in IPL .... and so on .... You should do research first before typing random stuff 

 

Also there is no set formula for batting except playing the ball on the merit. A full toss is a full toss whether you are on 10, 50 or 90. Batsmen with the attitude of Richards, ABDV and SDP will always back themselves (confidence in their abilities) and look to take on the bowlers. That is their USP and what separates them from other batsmen. Such batsmen are fewer in numbers. 

 

Below, enjoy one of Richards (the benchmark for impactful batting in LOI cricket) innings w/ WI 2 wkts down:

 

 

 

^ The above is what young batsman should be aiming to play like (be impactful). Luckly, after a long time, we have someone like SDP playing with such an attitude!

 

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by zen

[Majestic]

12 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Richards and ABDV play up the order so have more opportunities to play longer innings (I compared their attitude with SDP). If Richards and ABDV played at #6, they would play at an even higher SR. That is the reason I said that if SDP gets to play up the order, he would get more opportunities to play longer innings (not necessarily sedate ones). It does not mean that he has to play up the order, but that he should be judged based on the position he bats at, the attitude he shows and the potential he has. If he bats up, it is no rocket science that his average will be higher than what it is. The issue is in trying to judge a batsman batting at #6 as if he is playing in the top order (and may be the in the thinking that every batsman in the top 7 should be like a top order batsman when such batsmen play lower down, they have to play at a higher SR and when guys like Rohit have failed doing that)

 

In his short career -> in Tests has a 100, a 90 odd in SA (in extremely tough battig conditions), a 50 in Eng (won the test for Ind w/ the ball) .... In ODIs, he has 83 against Aus (avg 54 v Aus at a SR of 117), 76 v Pak (avg 61 w/ a SR of 179), Avg 51 v Eng w/ a SR of 122 .... in T20s has a 90 odd in IPL .... and so on .... You should do research first before typing random stuff 

 

Also there is no set formula for batting except playing the ball on the merit. A full toss is a full toss whether you are on 10, 50 or 90. A batsman with the attitude of Richards, ABDV and SDP will always back themselves (confidence in their abilities) and look to take on the bowlers. That is their USP and what separates them from other batsmen. Such batsmen are fewer in numbers. 

 

Below, enjoy one of Richards (the benchmark for impactful batting in LOI cricket) innings w/ WI 2 wkts down:

 

 

 

^ The above is what young batsman should be aiming to play like (be impactful). Luckly, after a long time, we have someone like SDP playing with such an attitude 

 

 

That is now overhyping stuffs.

 

We have seen Pandya's attitude in WC semi final 2019 when he came to bat at 25-4 while chasing 240. He scored a sedate 30 off 60 balls even after knowing that the universal tuk-tuk Dhoni is still to come.

 

Viv or ABD would score a 75-80 at a strike rate of 90-100 in that situation. This is why Pandya shouldn't come to bat before 25 overs are bowled in a 50-over game.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Majestic

[zen]

42 minutes ago, Majestic said:

That is now overhyping stuffs.

 

We have seen Pandya's attitude in WC semi final 2019 when he came to bat at 25-4 while chasing 240. He scored a sedate 30 off 60 balls even after knowing that the universal tuk-tuk Dhoni is still to come.

 

Viv or ABD would score a 75-80 at a strike rate of 90-100 in that situation. This is why Pandya shouldn't come to bat before 25 overs are bowled in a 50-over game.

 

and what was the issue here?

 

 

[Majestic]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

 

and what was the issue here?

 

 

Can't see the video as it is blocked in India. What is it?

[Straight Drive]

10 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

All this praises for Pandya seems like he is the next incarnate of Kapil Dev. Not convinced of his supremacy as described here. We hype too many here in ICF. Moments of glory is not proven talent. Even Dinesh Mongra has a mammoth ODI 100

Not worth to compare with Kapil imo as well. How do you think Pandya compares with Manoj Prabhakar and Irfan Pathan. Obviously those two are much better and skillful bowlers as compared to Pandya, buy Pandya batting is ODI and T20i is much better than them.

 

 

[zen]

26 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

Not worth to compare with Kapil imo as well. How do you think Pandya compares with Manoj Prabhakar and Irfan Pathan. Obviously those two are much better and skillful bowlers as compared to Pandya, buy Pandya batting is ODI and T20i is much better than them.

 

Why not compare batting with Kapil or even w/ specialist batsmen at #6-7? Below are the averages & SR v major teams in ODIs: 

 

MS Dhoni 46, 84 .... AVG*SR 3864

Hardik 32, 110 .... 3520

Raina 35, 91 .... 3185

Tendulkar 29, 97 .... 2813

A Jadeja 34, 75 .... 2550

Yuvraj 32, 79 .... 2528 

Kapil 24, 91 .... 2184

Rohit 24, 77 .... 1848

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by zen

[Straight Drive]

41 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Why not compare batting with Kapil or even w/ specialist batsmen at #6-7? Below are the averages & SR v major teams in ODIs: 

 

MS Dhoni 46, 84 .... AVG*SR 3864

Hardik 32, 110 .... 3520

Raina 35, 91 .... 3185

Tendulkar 29, 97 .... 2813

A Jadeja 34, 75 .... 2550

Yuvraj 32, 79 .... 2528 

Kapil 24, 91 .... 2184

Rohit 24, 77 .... 1848

 

 

 

To me , Pandya is near about Irfan Pathan or Manoj Prabhakar level. Better than them in some skill but poor than them in another.

 

Prabhakar opened the innings which is tougher. Pandya lacks that. Pandya is a better hitter though than Prabhakar. Whereas Prabhakar and Pathan were better bowlers than Pandya.

 

Batting of Kapil and Pandya cannot be compared. Atleast I would not do so at this point of time.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Straight Drive

[zen]

7 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

To me , Pandya is near about Irfan Pathan or Manoj Prabhakar level. Better than them in some skill but poor than them in another.

 

Prabhakar opened the innings which is tougher. Pandya lacks that. Pandya is a better hitter though than Prabhakar. Whereas Prabhakar and Pathan were better bowlers than Pandya.

So opening the batting in ODIs is tougher? 
 

Did you not see the avg and SR of Tendulkar & Rohit at #6-7? 
 

 

[Straight Drive]

1 minute ago, zen said:

So opening the batting in ODIs is tougher? 
 

Did you not see the avg and SR of Tendulkar & Rohit at #6-7? 
 

 

My comparison of Pandya with Pathan and Prabhakar was just not limited to LOI format. But you can skip that as it is irrelevant to the thread which is about ODI.

[putrevus]

I would give this odi and t20s series for Pandya as a batsman. Let him show what he can do as batsman.Personally I don't think he is good enough to play as batsman alone but he sure does deserve a chance to show case his batting talent.Thi is just random odi series with nothing much at stake.

 

But he and his followers need to understand there is nothing called specialist hitter in odis. In t20s also Pandya needs to do better than just hit some occasional 6s to demand a spot purely as a batsman.Teams have used pinch hitters in past but all those players had another role in their teams.

Edited November 23, 2020 by putrevus

[maniac]

8 hours ago, zen said:

 

Why not compare batting with Kapil or even w/ specialist batsmen at #6-7? Below are the averages & SR v major teams in ODIs: 

 

MS Dhoni 46, 84 .... AVG*SR 3864

Hardik 32, 110 .... 3520

Raina 35, 91 .... 3185

Tendulkar 29, 97 .... 2813

A Jadeja 34, 75 .... 2550

Yuvraj 32, 79 .... 2528 

Kapil 24, 91 .... 2184

Rohit 24, 77 .... 1848

 

 

 

Based on your stats Tendulkar’s 97 SR or Kapil’s 91 sr for that era is as good if not better than Pandyas 110 sr in this era and Sachin played in a much weaker batting line up when he played at 6 and much more difficult conditions and better bowling. 
 

Numbers are Numbers but they only become stats is if there is a context to it. Otherwise they are meaningless 

 

Lol Yuvi has a strike rate of 79 but no one in their right mind would pick Pandya over Yuvraj in a odi match.

 

All these batsmen have played some magical knocks at 6 that have stood the test of time.

 

Kapil 175 greatest knock ever in odis which helped us win the world Cup.

 

Yuvi won us the Natwest cup, Played memorable knocks in 2003 and 2011 WC and became a legend in WT20

 

Sachin was taking apart 2W’s, 2C’s,Haddlee,Qadir etc etc at no.6 which prompted the management to see the special talent in him and push him to open and as they say rest is history. It’s a joke to say Pandya has the same level talent as Sachin

 

Raina played clutch knocks in Asia cups, WC 2011 and other tournaments at that position. Again no one in the right mind would pick Pandya over a peak Raina.

 

Rohit won us the WT20 2007 and CB series with his batting in the middle order.

 

A.Jadeja destroyed Waqar Younis in a high pressure game and won us the game.

 

Comeback to me when Oandya has come even remotely close to any of those performances. Otherwise these stats are meaningless.

 

[zen]

5 minutes ago, maniac said:

Comeback to me when Oandya has come even remotely close to any of those performances. Otherwise these stats are meaningless.

 

I can see how you feel knowing that SDP is already better than all your favorites at #6-7 ....things will get even better 

 

"Big hitter" Rohit has a SR of 77 at #6-7

[Straight Drive]

  

11 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Do you think IVAR/ABDV was only about slam-bang. They had a good SR, but they built up innings and played percentage cricket as well. Just because Pandya can hit sixes, you can’t push him up the order and say he can do better than Rohit. Even Jadeja having a domestic 300, is not pushed up the order, There is a batting technique involved to show supremacy like IVAR. It is not always hand-eye coordination. Based on pitch conditions, temperament to puck good balls and bad balls. Pandya has shown no inclination to be a top order batsman. You are saying replace Rohit with with Pandya and he can do wonders. There is no such evidence of his ability 

 

Agree that comparing Viv or AB with Pandya is ridiculous. Wonder one day if all six hitters like Pandya, Afridi, Kluesner, Pollard, Yusuf Pathan, Jayasuriya, Russell start getting compared with likes of Viv and AB  .

Edited November 23, 2020 by Straight Drive

[Ankit_sharma03]

15 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Yes in T20Is only where one 20+ runs over will turn the tide. Not in ODIs

 

and why not in ODI .....here let me make it simple 

 

These days teams are looking to make - 350 

How manys balls are in ODI - 300

Our top ODI batsman rohit sharma for 1st 10 overs bat at 73 s/r 

Iyer another Slow starter 

Jadeja s/r at 7 is 82 

Kohli also goes crazy only in last few overs

 

Now do that math in number of balls u have wasted in 300 and then ur target was already 350 , so thats means we ll some how have to score 350 runs in 250 balls 

 

 

 lets see Wc England

 

1. Roy - 106
2. Bairstrow- 104
3. Root- 87 
4. Stokes- 94
5. Morgan- 91 
6. Butler - 120 

 

Now u see in top 6 three batsman are going above 100  s/r to cover for those who are under 100 which means they are going run a ball and butler and tail puts the chery one cake . No wonder they are world champions

 

1. Dhawan- 94
2. Rohit- 89
3. KohLi- 93
4. Iyer- 100
5. Rahul - 87 
6. Jadeja - 86

• Now none of ur batsman apart from iyer is 100+(who btw is yet to be exposed and soon it will happen)
• now dont add pandya whose few sixes u have problem with and end results is falling short of 300 which use to be the case before his entry and jaddu days despite having dhoni n raina 
• England 3 batsman are over 100 and one is 120 covering others 
• Forget pandya we need one more like him which is Samad and infact if we need to compete with england we need pant also to come good and find one dasher opener . So forget getting rid of pandya we need more 

 

If i add s/r of those 2 sides and get the total

 

England- 602 from 6 batsman 

Ind-  549 from 6 batsman

 

and thats where u loose the games and the no one gives and F who comes 2nd 

 

Also @maniac- since u dont get the basic breakdown of an innings , teams like pakistan build a team fearing collapse ...if u have to be a world champion side make a side that makes 350 and not safely reach 250 . Understand or not but dnt tag me again in those crap can pandya handle a collapse its been done to death now ....in 50 odi dont expect a maturity of 100+ odis specially when yuvi ,rohit have struggled for 6-7 yrs and they were polished in Fc as compare to pandya who was fast track 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[maniac]

24 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

  

 

Agree that comparing Viv or AB with Pandya is ridiculous. Wonder one day if all six hitters like Pandya, Afridi, Kluesner, Pollard, Yusuf Pathan, Jayasuriya, Russell start getting compared with likes of Viv and AB  .

Kluesner and Jayasuriya don’t belong there, Kluesner the batsman can and has scored daddy 100’s in top 3 and on his day has ran through line ups. Jayasuriya is a LOI legend and also has a test triple and double which makes him atleast a 2nd tier ATG.

[coffee_rules]

9 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

and why not in ODI .....here let me make it simple 

 

These days teams are looking to make - 350 

How manys balls are in ODI - 300

Our top ODI batsman rohit sharma for 1st 10 overs bat at 73 s/r 

Iyer another Slow starter 

Jadeja s/r at 7 is 82 

Kohli also goes crazy only in last few overs

 

Now do that math in number of balls u have wasted in 300 and then ur target was already 350 , so thats means we ll some how have to score 350 runs in 250 balls 

 

 

 lets see Wc England

 

1. Roy - 106
2. Bairstrow- 104
3. Root- 87 
4. Stokes- 94
5. Morgan- 91 
6. Butler - 120 

 

Now u see in top 6 three batsman are going above 100  s/r to cover for those who are under 100 which means they are going run a ball and butler and tail puts the chery one cake . No wonder they are world champions

 

1. Dhawan- 94
2. Rohit- 89
3. KohLi- 93
4. Iyer- 100
5. Rahul - 87 
6. Jadeja - 86

• Now none of ur batsman apart from iyer is 100+(who btw is yet to be exposed and soon it will happen)
• now dont add pandya whose few sixes u have problem with and end results is falling short of 300 which use to be the case before his entry and jaddu days despite having dhoni n raina 
• England 3 batsman are over 100 and one is 120 covering others 
• Forget pandya we need one more like him which is Samad and infact if we need to compete with england we need pant also to come good and find one dasher opener . So forget getting rid of pandya we need more 

 

There is a 50% chance that a team will also be chasing 300+ scores and not always setting a score. You can't build a team for setting scores always. With all the firepower, Eng had to win the WC on the back of not even able to chase a 241, tied it on a difficult pitch.  I am not saying we don't need slambangers, but in case of Pandya, we can't afford to have a slambanger without the 5th bowler. We had to bowl Jadhav in 2017 CT even with Pandya's good 10 over spell, he gave some 50 odd runs while Ashwin and Bumrah got hammerred by Pakistan. Imagine without Pandya's overs, we would be chasing 380 for sure.

[Straight Drive]

13 minutes ago, maniac said:

Kluesner and Jayasuriya don’t belong there, Kluesner the batsman can and has scored daddy 100’s in top 3 and on his day has ran through line ups. Jayasuriya is a LOI legend and also has a test triple and double which makes him atleast a 2nd tier ATG.

 

 

Yeah, Jayasuriya was a ODI star considering his overall impact as a batsman a utility bowler and the way he exploited power play.

 

Just checked Kluesners CI page. He has ODI avg of 41 with sr of 90, which is very good for the time he played. Even he has more wickets than ODI's he has played. Thats very good.

 

Fair enough.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Straight Drive