Long term Investment in X factor players v/s Short term investment in players with limitation - What will you choose ?

[express bowling]

2 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Im not debating big players vs utility vs clutch players

 

Debate here is for empty slot which has 2 option players with limited skill set and X factor with their own set of cons

 

Iyer- players with limitaton

Saini - As of now i dnt see him a runaway match winner, but he has the potential 

Samson- X factor

Sky- Street smart to be honest but For this lineup X factor 

Mayank - good player but definitely not X factor 

 

 

I was answering that only.

 

But the answer about who occupies the 2 empty slots would depend on the composition of the whole team. 

 

And I was outlining my preference for the team composition.

 

Let's say a pace attack of Shardul, Chahar and Natarajan won't work  ... but Bumrah, Shami and Natarajan / Shardul will work in the short run.

 

If there are 4 other batters performing then I will push Gill in the test and ODI team.

 

 

 

To talk about the players you have wrote about 

 

Iyer ... I will try to find a better replacement as he has issues against both bounce as well as hard length balls.

 

Saini ... I will give him chances till we get other good young quicks ready. But he can play only with 2 other dependable pacers. His issue is that he lacks natural bounce and will get hit unless he can get both his pace and accuracy going together.

 

Samson ... Lacks temperament and consistency. He does not interest me much as of now.

 

SKY ... Want to see how he does in T20Is. He may or may not succeed but deserves a few chances. His approach to T20 batting his very modern and we need to encourage this approach.

 

Mayank .... He will play in my test and T20I team as of now. And I will try to develop Gill and Shaw, every chance I get.

 

 

 

 

[putrevus]

14 minutes ago, jalebi_bhai said:

@Ankit_sharma03 simple question bro, do you think Indian fan base have the patience and fortitutde to digest a few bad losses and ICC tournament group stage exits to see a transformation in Indian team batting? 

 

What I mean is, go with a revamped team and suffer short term losses for long term gains?

 

I don't think majority of the fan base has the patience. Great change only comes with great sacrifice.

 

You can have all the long term plans that you want, but if the fan base itself starts attacking players at the slightest hint of failure, it's pointless.

 

Let me give you an example. Ind vs Aus 2019 Mohali, Pant makes a keeping error, crowd starts chanting 'Dhoni, Dhoni..". This is the generally IQ of the aam junta. 

 

Professional sport is a results based business at the end of the day. Besides, Kohli the captain doesn't have enough credit in the bank unless he wins an ICC trophy soon. He will prioritize winning in the short term.

 

If anything, even if he just boots Dhawan from the T20 team, I'll be happy. It may not be enough progress, but it is progress.

Forget crowd and fans, talented players should always be given a chance. Do we have such talented players.All these young Indian players are getting their chances in IPL to show their talents.Whois the young talent who has stood out in IPL and screamed select me. Natarajan was one such guy and  they selected him and he will play T20 world cup. 

 

Samson is proving exactly what his IPL stats show, he is an inconsistent player who will play odd match winning innings. Samson had three matches in row where he could have shown he belong at this level. He should be given more chances and he will be given more chances but to remove Kohli from number 3 and make Samson number 3 is just insane.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Let's say a pace attack of Shardul, Chahar and Natarajan won't work  ... but Bumrah, Shami and Natarajan / Shardul will work in the short run.

 

Shardul can be used smartly actually specially his bowling coz that where the problem is....will write about it 

 

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Samson ... Lacks temperament and consistency. He does not interest me much as of now.

 

SAMSON -  even though i dnt see a fight in him like i see in a pant or a pandya but his talent is a temptation and his fielding is very very good , as of now he has intent 

Like sanju says i wud like to give him chance to make sure- but srsly i feel give him a shot at open .....talent to hai usme 

 

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Mayank .... He will play in my test and T20I team as of now. And I will try to develop Gill and Shaw, every chance I get.

 

 

I really wish to see pant, kishen , devdutt , shaw at that slot.....dashers to be tried one by one 

[express bowling]

16 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

SAMSON -  even though i dnt see a fight in him like i see in a pant or a pandya but his talent is a temptation and his fielding is very very good , as of now he has intent 

Like sanju says i wud like to give him chance to make sure- but srsly i feel give him a shot at open .....talent to hai usme 

 

 

 

The reason why Samson raises doubts in my mind is because he has been around for a long time but averages 37 in FC,  30 in List A and 26 in T20s.

 

Has not shown consistency in any format.

 

Such players usually have major temperament issues.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

I really wish to see pant, kishen , devdutt , shaw at that slot.....dashers to be tried one by one 

 

 

Don't think either Rohit or Rahul will give up that slot in T20Is ... provided we can get rid of Dhawan.

[Ankit_sharma03]

Also when we talk about solidity or consistency we are not talking about root, smith or even dravid who were good enough to score in any condition but we are talking about manish n iyer whose one aspect is under complete doubt, Mayank is someone who is stronger then both in both in their weaker aspects 

[maniac]

Players I would back keeping aside X factor 

 

Iyer (for all formats)

 

Mayank (in tests)

 

Gill (in tests)

 

Shaw (in tests and T20I) doesn’t have it in him for ODis where running between the wickets is super important. T20 fielding can be somewhat masked. Alright in slips (u-19 level)

 

Samson (in T20s)

 

SKY (give him a chance in T20 and let’s see. Not sold but deserves his chance)

Kishen (odis and t20)

 

Pant (all formats)

 

Siraj (tests)

 

Saini (all formats)

 

Thakur (odis and t20)

 

Devdutt,Tyagi still need some fine tuning.

 

D.Chahar needs to prove outside sc. R.Chahar need to see him outside of the Mi system and May be 1 more year to see if teams have figured him out.

[putrevus]

4 minutes ago, maniac said:

Players I would back keeping aside X factor 

 

Iyer (for all formats)

 

Mayank (in tests)

 

Gill (in tests)

 

Shaw (in tests and T20I) doesn’t have it in him for ODis where running between the wickets is super important. T20 fielding can be somewhat masked. Alright in slips (u-19 level)

 

Samson (in T20s)

 

SKY (give him a chance in T20 and let’s see. Not sold but deserves his chance)

Kishen (odis and t20)

 

Pant (all formats)

 

Siraj (tests)

 

Saini (all formats)

 

Thakur (odis and t20)

 

Devdutt,Tyagi still need some fine tuning.

 

D.Chahar needs to prove outside sc. R.Chahar need to see him outside of the Mi system and May be 1 more year to see if teams have figured him out.

Except SKY everyone one your list has been given chances. It is upto to them to make most of those chances.

[Ankit_sharma03]

17 minutes ago, maniac said:

Players I would back keeping aside X factor 

 

Iyer (for all formats)

 

in test also ?

bhai abhi tak tune uska bouncer ka issue dekha hai swing seam ka nahin, dhayan se technique dekh incoming ball pe bhi fasega away going pe bhi 

[maniac]

1 minute ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

in test also ?

bhai abhi tak tune uska bouncer ka issue dekha hai swing seam ka nahin, dhayan se technique dekh incoming ball pe bhi fasega away going pe bhi 

Ganguly struggled against short ball and so did Raina. One played around his weakness and one succumbed to it. Let’s see what Iyer can do, some responsibility should be on him too. Steve Waugh was a bad player of short ball too and even Steve Smith has short ball problem, it all boils down to % cricket, game awareness. He has all the other tools.

[Ankit_sharma03]

5 minutes ago, maniac said:

Ganguly struggled against short ball and so did Raina. One played around his weakness and one succumbed to it. Let’s see what Iyer can do, some responsibility should be on him too. Steve Waugh was a bad player of short ball too and even Steve Smith has short ball problem, it all boils down to % cricket, game awareness. He has all the other tools.

 

 

ganguly problem only became worse during his captaincy stint but post his comeback he figured it out rest other areas were pretty good  and he wasnt someone with 50 avg , 

During raina time we didnt travel much to Sa n Aus when we did he got caught but other time he use to make it up, plus raina n morgan had the ability to take the game away in matter of few overs if u dnt get them with that short ball.  Raina failed as test cricketer and when he was caught again it was a downhill only 

 

Steve waugh was once in a life time kind of player but lets not forget those guys didnt have the RR pressure

Smith problem is only exploited by 2 kinds Express pace- archer or extreme accurate wagner......iyer has been bounced by guys like unadkat n woakes 

 

IF u remember all the last good LOI indian cricketer all were good against short stuff - sachin, kohli, rohit, dhawan, dhoni, yuvi , Rahul, even pandya .....only raina but raina cud take game away like few . There are examples like Tiwary n rayudu to 

 

This guy just doesnt have short ball its quick wrist spin and swing seam to so test will be damn tough for him , ODI still there is escape 

 

% cricket can work only if he can find survival like waugh did or he can thrash other overs like raina or morgan wud 

 

 

[BacktoCricaddict]

4 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Someone who can runaway with the game and has the extra gear or extra special skill set for eg in 

 

Batting warner , rohit are ex factor in ODI as compare to kohli or smith

bowling- warne, malinga, akram, starc, bond 

 

thats a clutch player 

 

So, would Samson qualify as X-factor in T-20s?  He definitely meets those criteria.  Consistency should also factor in a bit, no?  Tough choices.

[bowl_out]

4 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

two question 

 

• In day n age of 350 total and top order who is slow u want consistency 
• are iyer and pandey consistent in half conditions in world ?

 

Yes, a hit or bust doesn't work in ODIs.. And it's not like Rohits or Kohlis of the world cannot accelerate when required.. I'd have someone who can do two things - (1) build innings and win matches on their good day and (2) save the team when the top order collapses (like WC semis).. I trust players like Iyer to do that more than players like Samson or Pant in ODIs..

 

For T20s, there is no innings building IMO.. I'd pick 7 youngsters that can go beserk from ball 1... So Samson, Pant, SKY >> Iyer, Pandey in the format

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 minutes ago, bowl_out said:

 

Yes, a hit or bust doesn't work in ODIs.. And it's not like Rohits or Kohlis of the world cannot accelerate when required.. I'd have someone who can do two things - (1) build innings and win matches on their good day and (2) save the team when the top order collapses (like WC semis).. I trust players like Iyer to do that more than players like Samson or Pant in ODIs..

 

again dont u think its a myth more then anything

 

• In semi it was pant who stopped the carnage or jadeja n pandya despite their images 
• Can u rely on manish n iyer for this who have such major issues like this tour where iyer cudnt build a single innings and pandya n jaddu did . To build an inning u also need to stay at crease and with the glaring holes both have they end up being as inconsistent as others 

 

Rohit n kohli can accelrate but they do eat up balls which never come back n its not every day that their will convert big no batsman can do that . 

In ODI its become about 350, their are 300 balls out of which imagine how many all of waste since most are slow starters 

 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

14 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

So, would Samson qualify as X-factor in T-20s?  He definitely meets those criteria.  Consistency should also factor in a bit, no?  Tough choices.

 

yes samson is X factor

Consistency comes with experience and good batting positions - Rohit, yuvi are best xamples .

U cant throw someone at 6-7 n expect consistency or expect someone to be extremely consistent in Intial yrs , there have been cases like that but mostly players become consistent over a period of time specially who are blessed with great shot range 

[BacktoCricaddict]

8 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

yes samson is X factor

Consistency comes with experience and good batting positions - Rohit, yuvi are best xamples .

U cant throw someone at 6-7 n expect consistency or expect someone to be extremely consistent in Intial yrs , there have been cases like that but mostly players become consistent over a period of time specially who are blessed with great shot range 

Fair enough.  

[Real McCoy]

Player investment is directly proportional to the length of the format. Tests need long term investment like backing Shaw and Gill. ODIs slightly lesser and T20s even lesser. I hate to agree with Greg Chapell here but he had some interesting points. It is that established players need to bat at the toughest spot because they can deal with it and newcomers need to get somewaht easier spots. Once they are given an easy spot, then we can decide based on their performances whether this guy is worthwhile. This runs counter to our team culture. Our established players bat where they are comfortable while the newcomers are thrown into the wolves. Its unfair to judge someone who comes in with 25 needed in 2 overs and he makes a duck and gets the criticism. Also t20s need younger playrs. Kohli, Rohit and Dhawan are quality players but with age, the reflexes slow down gradually and the mental capacity to think on the run declines. t20s have immediate ups and downs. you think you are winning it only to find yourself in a losing position and are in a up and down roller coaster. Its no format for older players.

[bowl_out]

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

again dont u think its a myth more then anything

 

• In semi it was pant who stopped the carnage or jadeja n pandya despite their images 
• Can u rely on manish n iyer for this who have such major issues like this tour where iyer cudnt build a single innings and pandya n jaddu did . To build an inning u also need to stay at crease and with the glaring holes both have they end up being as inconsistent as others 

 

Rohit n kohli can accelrate but they do eat up balls which never come back n its not every day that their will convert big no batsman can do that . 

In ODI its become about 350, their are 300 balls out of which imagine how many all of waste since most are slow starters 

 

 

It's equally a myth that Samson or Pant can chase down 350.. I was a big promoter of Samson, but seeing how inconsistent he has been, I would keep him only to T20s.. 

Iyer has shown his innings building capabilities in the past.. Had a good tour of NZ..  Averages 45 with a S/R over 100.. I would give him the longer rope

[Ankit_sharma03]

41 minutes ago, bowl_out said:

 

It's equally a myth that Samson or Pant can chase down 350.. I was a big promoter of Samson, but seeing how inconsistent he has been, I would keep him only to T20s.. 

 

No one player can chase that down everyone knws that but at the end u need one like them only to do it 

Yea samson is right for t20s as of now 

 

Quote

Iyer has shown his innings building capabilities in the past.. Had a good tour of NZ..  Averages 45 with a S/R over 100.. I would give him the longer rope

 

NZ did bowl to his strength which now wont happen since aussies have exposed them, yea but fair enough he deserves a rope

Edited December 9, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[Prabhdeep Singh]

The Goal should be trying the tried and tested players considering the next 50 world cup is in India, after that World Cup changes should be made.

 

The following line up should be used in world cup 2023.

 

R Sharma

KL Rahul

S Gill

V Kohli

S Iyer

H Pandya

R Jadeja

R Ashwin

B Kumar

M Shami

J Bumrah

 

6 bowlers, batting upto number 9

 

Y Chahal and K Yadav impact has reduced. 

 

Maybe V Kohli can solve number 4 position.

 

P Shaw/S Gill need to choose 1 going forward and play them in all 50 over games upto 2023 World Cup. 

 

S Dhawan is 35 now, not sure if he will be part of 2023 World Cup.

 

Reserves (15 man squad):

 

P Shaw

R Bishnoi (Or any other Spinner)

S Samson/R Pant

T Natarajan (Or any other Seamer)

 

 

[Vk1]

Most of the time in ODIs, players from 4,5,6,7 positions get to play no more than 25 overs. we tend to overrate technique and quality for these slots. What is needed is a cool head and a 360 game. We look like clowns when our hitters cant scoop/ switch hit  and nowadays cant even play the sweeepshot ogainst spinners ( forget against fastmen).  We have shown some +ve signs on this tour but still long long way to go. 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Vk1