Discussion on Farmers issues in India

[Serpico]

3 hours ago, Number said:

Countries like Vietnam, S Korea even China moved towards rapid industrialisation while India remained stuck in agriculture with low produce.

 

The laws can be a game changer for the country in long run if govt puts it foot down and doesn't back away from implementation.

How do you know these laws are the game-changer? Vietnam also made sure that their literacy rate and quality of education is high, there are enough jobs and development in industrial sector. Where are all the new industries and jobs in india to replace farming jobs? Where is the long term vision of govt to help transition the farmers? It's funny how people believe they just need to pass a law and remove msp and farmers will magically gain the skills and all the industries will magically establish themselves in the country like in Vietnam

[maniac]

7 minutes ago, Serpico said:

How do you know these laws are the game-changer? Vietnam also made sure that their literacy rate and quality of education is high, there are enough jobs and development in industrial sector. Where are all the new industries and jobs in india to replace farming jobs? Where is the long term vision of govt to help transition the farmers? It's funny how people believe they just need to pass a law and remove msp and farmers will magically gain the skills and all the industries will magically establish themselves in the country like in Vietnam

There are 100’s of dying skills, artisans  and professions in India, these “traditional” farmers should get the same help as them. I truly believe they should.

 

Anyways they are in luck, they have land a very valuable asset. Now if one cannot handle their assets no one is responsible. They are welcome to move on.

 

As far as the profession of farming itself, there are plenty of interest in organic farm as both a new trend and booming business.  There is plenty of  innovation and change waiting to happen  in the Indian agricultural sector changing the old archaic ways.
 

People will always need food and farming will always exist as long as human civilization exists, so better to have the best capable and educated  people running it, rather than the ones who are clearly not equipped to run it for whatever the reason.

[bharathh]

46 minutes ago, Serpico said:

How do you know these laws are the game-changer? Vietnam also made sure that their literacy rate and quality of education is high, there are enough jobs and development in industrial sector. Where are all the new industries and jobs in india to replace farming jobs? Where is the long term vision of govt to help transition the farmers? It's funny how people believe they just need to pass a law and remove msp and farmers will magically gain the skills and all the industries will magically establish themselves in the country like in Vietnam

 

Here's my 2 paisa despite this being useless in the context of this discussion as it is political and meant to show this govt in a poor light than to improve lives.

 

Progress ultimately is a function of money - unless you talk about a country like Israel where they innovated to survive. 

 

Money has to be provided to improve the yields and efficiency of land. There are a number of methods to make the most of your land - but farmers need to 1. know about these improvements, 2. adapt them.

 

Farmers themselves have 2 options - take loans without the know-how to make these things happen or b. work with folks that know how to do this at scale.

 

Option a is not feasible in a country where farmers are largely illiterate/naive. Those in the know always look to take advantage of the farmers. If these laws are not put in place this is the only option available. The mandis are a cash cow for the middlemen and politicians who will never do anything to change the status quo. They get free money and absolute power over the farmers. They can control who their farmers vote for, who gets to make money and who doesn't. The majority of farmers will continue to devolve into bankruptcy.

 

Regarding option b, while there are NGOs that can provide expertise - the money still has to be provided. This can only come from FDI/local businesses. As much as people love to hate Adani and Ambani - unless the mandis are willing to put up money/form a collective like Amul, the only option for farmers with small holdings is to work with corporates and make their farms more efficient. This can happen by modernizing their methods using low cost-high yield methods like drip irrigation and growing appropriate crops that can provide them higher prices. I am sure corporates like Big Basket would pay handsomely for expensive crops like Broccoli, Avacados etc. This cannot happen unless these laws are seen through.

 

There are enough people both within and outside India who don't want farmers to have a chance to improve their lives. Much like women were not educated because they would then have options but to stick with the patriarchy.

[Serpico]

48 minutes ago, bharathh said:

I am sure corporates like Big Basket would pay handsomely for expensive crops like Broccoli, Avacados etc. This cannot happen unless these laws are seen through.

This is the biggest problem with urbanites and NRIs giving away easy solutions. They refuse to look at big picture, the entire system. They look at every problem at individual level and think solutions like this are feasible on mass scale.

 

There isn't enough demand for the fricking avacados in the country. Sure a couple of farmers here and there can produce avocado and make huge profits but the millions of rice, wheat and sugarcane farmers cannot do that. Do you think if every rice farmer cultivate broccoli, everyone in the country will change their dietary habits? Have you never seen what happens when certain veggies are produced in excess? I know people who had to leave so many quintals of tomatoes in the fields to rot because the market prices in that moment don't even cover the harvesting and transportation expenses. There aren't enough storage infrastructure in the country to hold on to stuff until demand rises again. Big basket will not buy at reasonable rates if there is an option to buy them for spare change. They are answerable to their shareholders, it doesn't matter if farmers make reasonable living or not

 

You can't just ask hundreds of millions of population to buy lottery tickets every year and starve to death when their numbers aren't announced. 

[Serpico]

1 hour ago, maniac said:

Anyways they are in luck, they have land a very valuable asset. Now if one cannot handle their assets no one is responsible. They are welcome to move on.

Move on to the afterlife? Very reasonable solution dude why can't every farmer in the country find enough markets to sell their organic avocados and soy milk, it doesn't matter if only 0.1% of indian consumers give a crap about that stuff, every farmer who cannot cater that 0.1% population should just cease to exist

[urbestfriend]

6 minutes ago, Serpico said:

This is the biggest problem with urbanites and NRIs giving away easy solutions. They refuse to look at big picture, the entire system. They look at every problem at individual level and think solutions like this are feasible on mass scale.

 

There isn't enough demand for the fricking avacados in the country. Sure a couple of farmers here and there can produce avocado and make huge profits but the millions of rice, wheat and sugarcane farmers cannot do that. Do you think if every rice farmer cultivate broccoli, everyone in the country will change their dietary habits? Have you never seen what happens when certain veggies are produced in excess? I know people who had to leave so many quintals of tomatoes in the fields to rot because the market prices in that moment don't even cover the harvesting and transportation expenses. There aren't enough storage infrastructure in the country to hold on to stuff until demand rises again. Big basket will not buy at reasonable rates if there is an option to buy them for spare change. They are answerable to their shareholders, it doesn't matter if farmers make reasonable living or not

 

You can't just ask hundreds of millions of population to buy lottery tickets every year and starve to death when their numbers aren't announced. 

This is already happening today and you are just ranting without dwelling upon any solutions.   Its not that farmers are not left to the market force currently, right? Dont I see farmers throwing tomoatos and onions on to the street when there is an excess supply and less demand, and this happens all the time.   Only few farmers may be benefiting from the MSP which will anyway continue, but is it feasible that government acts like a market and fix the price for every crop? Market should be allowed to discover the best price, and if there is a proper competition from the buyers market there is a chance that farmers might get the appropriate price. Also it allows the corporates creating new markets for newer crops  and have a deal with farmers to grow with pre-fixed prices. At the end of the day, no one knows how it plays out, but govt must subsidise the farmers heavily and allow the market forces to get the best pricing as well.  

[bharathh]

11 minutes ago, Serpico said:

This is the biggest problem with urbanites and NRIs giving away easy solutions. They refuse to look at big picture, the entire system. They look at every problem at individual level and think solutions like this are feasible on mass scale.

 

There isn't enough demand for the fricking avacados in the country. Sure a couple of farmers here and there can produce avocado and make huge profits but the millions of rice, wheat and sugarcane farmers cannot do that. Do you think if every rice farmer cultivate broccoli, everyone in the country will change their dietary habits? Have you never seen what happens when certain veggies are produced in excess? I know people who had to leave so many quintals of tomatoes in the fields to rot because the market prices in that moment don't even cover the harvesting and transportation expenses. There aren't enough storage infrastructure in the country to hold on to stuff until demand rises again. Big basket will not buy at reasonable rates if there is an option to buy them for spare change. They are answerable to their shareholders, it doesn't matter if farmers make reasonable living or not

 

You can't just ask hundreds of millions of population to buy lottery tickets every year and starve to death when their numbers aren't announced. 

 

I gave an example of why these laws are useful. I am not saying that everyone needs to grow Avacados. If you read what I wrote I said corporates can partner with farmers to grow specific crops that can maximize their land output. The corporates can also provide logistics and infra to store and move the goods around.

 

Right now with the mandi system everything stays in the state the crops are grown in. You think the mandis/state govts have any incentive to improve infra? Why have they not done so in the past 70+ years? Why do we have nothing to show for innovation other than the green revolution in the 1970s?

 

The state govts can use taxpayer money they can use to build infra/ improve healthcare, education etc. instead of throwing it away on crops that are not required in the quantities they are produced. Pls read up on why the Soviet state galloped towards bankruptcy in the 80s. It was exactly because of their equivalent of MSP and the fact that the govt could not provide in times of famine when the quality of crops produced were poor.

 

We have surplus of wheat and rice that rots away right now. The reason the farmers in Punjab and Haryana grow this is because they have free water and the govt purchases what they grow. They can never aspire for more. They are kept from aspiring from more. 

 

State subsidies have become a narcotic for Indians now. While essential in small quantities at certain times - it cannot be the basis for economy. Govt needs to focus on providing platforms for growth and sustenance and allow human enterprise to build on it - not be the reason for it. That said, I am happy to listen to other solutions to modernize agriculture. I only hear so called rural experts like P.Sainath making laughable claims that farmers need to be given a free income of 7000 Rs a month .... even if they produce nothing.

[Serpico]

2 minutes ago, urbestfriend said:

This is already happening today and you are just ranting without dwelling upon any solutions.   Its not that farmers are not left to the market force currently, right? Dont I see farmers throwing tomoatos and onions on to the street when there is an excess supply and less demand, and this happens all the time.   Only few farmers may be benefiting from the MSP which will anyway continue, but is it feasible that government acts like a market and fix the price for every crop? Market should be allowed to discover the best price, and if there is a proper competition from the buyers market there is a chance that farmers might get the appropriate price. Also it allows the corporates creating new markets for newer crops  and have a deal with farmers to grow with pre-fixed prices. At the end of the day, no one knows how it plays out, but govt must subsidise the farmers heavily and allow the market forces to get the best pricing as well.  

The invisible hand of market don't give a **** about "best price" that helps both parties.  Who is going to ensure that the pre fixed prices are enforced? Both the parties making the agreement don't have same power. It's happening to veggie farmers now and it will happen to every farmer in future if govt removes every avenue of support

[Serpico]

8 minutes ago, bharathh said:

If you read what I wrote I said corporates can partner with farmers to grow specific crops that can maximize their land output. The corporates can also provide logistics and infra to store and move the goods around

What makes you think corporates will do any of this stuff? Is it not more beneficial and efficient to them if they simply owned the land? Why would they go out of their way to educate the farmers and empower them? 

[bharathh]

8 minutes ago, Serpico said:

The invisible hand of market don't give a **** about "best price" that helps both parties.  Who is going to ensure that the pre fixed prices are enforced? Both the parties making the agreement don't have same power. It's happening to veggie farmers now and it will happen to every farmer in future if govt removes every avenue of support

And farmers that distrust corporates can continue to deal with mandis and get MSP for their crops. How does this change status quo? Farmers who do not want to deal with mandis or feel that they get a better deal for themselves with corporates can choose to do so freely. That is all that is changing. Will the state govts (economically speaking) not benefit from this as they do not need to spend money procuring crops at higher prices? 

 

Where do you work? Can your salary change due to non-performance? Can you be fired ? Do you have guarantees that you will receive x salary every month for perpetuity? 

Edited February 4, 2021 by bharathh

[bharathh]

11 minutes ago, Serpico said:

What makes you think corporates will do any of this stuff? Is it not more beneficial and efficient to them if they simply owned the land? Why would they go out of their way to educate the farmers and empower them? 

Corporates work to increase profits. Innovation and higher yields will help them make more profit. That is why they will invest money. Unless they want to get into real estate - it makes no sense for them to acquire land much less till it. It is more profitable to be a logistics provider and move the crops around. Farming is labour intensive. If the state govt wants to protect lands - make the lands green belts - where the land cannot be used for anything but agriculture. That will quickly disincentivize real estate speculators. 

 

Corporates would want to educate and empower farmers for their own selfish benefit- to protect their investments. Better crop yields = more production = more $$. Businesses invest for profits. Btw what is stopping the state govt from educating and empowering farmers?

Edited February 4, 2021 by bharathh

[motomaverick]

 

[ash]

I will explain with a simple scenario what will happen after the bill is passed

 

1) No tax on direct selling , but state tax on Mandis. So the farmers will start prefering corporate buyers

2) There is no MSP on direct selling. Initially farmers will get high price from corporates, way more than MSP.  they will be happy cause no Mandi tax and no loss

3) Companies will start hoarding essentials. The prices for the items will slowly come down, will eventually fall below MSP.

4) Now farmers can't go back to Mandis to get MSP cause all Mandis would have been closed by then. 

5) The next step is corporate farming. With no other option now, farmers will start getting into contracts. Again no MSP so the contract price will be set by the companies, can be as low as they want.

6) Now time to sell. No guarantee again if the companies will honour the agreement with multiple subclauses. They can avoid buying citing poor crops, not enough quantity etc etc. They will bargain for less price now quoting all this subclauses in the agreement

7) the farmer obviously can't go to court. Anyone who says so are naive with no experience. Just raise a normal civil case against an insurance company and see how long it will take. Trust me I have experience

8) Now final nail in the coffin. The next step for the farmer is to sell the land. Again who better than the corporates again. They will buy the land, buy labour and continue farming. Then there will be absolutely no control on price.

 

In all these steps, there is absolutely no advantage whatsoever to the final consumer. We will continue to see increased price.

 

The problem here is the effect is not immediate. These steps will happen over the course of next 10 yrs. Initially no one will see any difference , but eventually when we look back there will be an reliance or adani Agri storage and logistics office in every district. 

 

[bharathh]

9 minutes ago, ash said:

I will explain with a simple scenario what will happen after the bill is passed

 

1) No tax on direct selling , but state tax on Mandis. So the farmers will start prefering corporate buyers

 

What prevents the states from exempting mandis from tax? After all Punjab cares deeply about farmers!

 

Quote

2) There is no MSP on direct selling. Initially farmers will get high price from corporates, way more than MSP.  they will be happy cause no Mandi tax and no loss

 

Are you stating that there will be no new entrants in the business? The barriers to entry will be reduced significantly for new players to come in - which will prevent only a few players. There are clauses to address farmer complaints in the laws. Pls show me where in the laws do we have any indication that farmers will be forced to sign bonded agreements with corporates? 

 

Quote

3) Companies will start hoarding essentials. The prices for the items will slowly come down, will eventually fall below MSP.

Doesn't hoarding happen now? Btw this is something that can be amended in the farm bills. Anti-hoarding laws can be created. Is anyone asking for this? No .. .they want a full repeal

 

Quote

4) Now farmers can't go back to Mandis to get MSP cause all Mandis would have been closed by then. 

State govts can keep mandis going. It's not like Mandis are self-sustaining. They are fully funded by the govt. Why should they go away?  The rest of the hypothesis below holds no weight given pt 1 and 4. Ipso facto.. hence proved LHS = RHS

 

Quote

5) The next step is corporate farming. With no other option now, farmers will start getting into contracts. Again no MSP so the contract price will be set by the companies, can be as low as they want.

 

6) Now time to sell. No guarantee again if the companies will honour the agreement with multiple subclauses. They can avoid buying citing poor crops, not enough quantity etc etc. They will bargain for less price now quoting all this subclauses in the agreement

7) the farmer obviously can't go to court. Anyone who says so are naive with no experience. Just raise a normal civil case against an insurance company and see how long it will take. Trust me I have experience

8) Now final nail in the coffin. The next step for the farmer is to sell the land. Again who better than the corporates again. They will buy the land, buy labour and continue farming. Then there will be absolutely no control on price.

 

In all these steps, there is absolutely no advantage whatsoever to the final consumer. We will continue to see increased price.

 

The problem here is the effect is not immediate. These steps will happen over the course of next 10 yrs. Initially no one will see any difference , but eventually when we look back there will be an reliance or adani Agri storage and logistics office in every district. 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by bharathh

[mishra]

^ @ashWhat a load of crap.  Mandi is not in India apart from couple of states and farmers still hold their land all across India. In a worst case scenario, MSP for 50 quintal of wheat may just differ by Rs 50 compared to corporate buyer which may actually mean a loss of 2500 annually. That is on assumption that there is no Mandi at all.

 

Issue of farming is cost of electricity, oil and wastage and farmers productivity. Infact its even worse for vegetables. Just a example. You hear that Farmer throwing tomatoes, cabbage, spinach. Why cant a food processing company enterat village make it tinned,frozen or take it next level.

 

 

Now back to land. Land issue was related to pvt sector contracting a farmer and then screwing up farmer for non delivery of produce. This did not come into brains of so called khalistanis protesting. It came into brain of BJPites and people in ministry that this is a risk. So they resolved it by putting special clause.

 

Just in case you still dont get it. Look at Amul milk. The way it reached out to villages in Gujrat to source milk. Yes, its cheaper but villages are not wasting the milk infact there is massive increase in productivity. Same is what is being planned in farming.

Edited February 4, 2021 by mishra

[ash]

17 minutes ago, bharathh said:

 

What prevents the states from exempting mandis from tax? After all Punjab cares deeply about farmers!

 

 

Are you stating that there will be no new entrants in the business? The barriers to entry will be reduced significantly for new players to come in - which will prevent only a few players. There are clauses to address farmer complaints in the laws. Pls show me where in the laws do we have any indication that farmers will be forced to sign bonded agreements with corporates? 

 

Doesn't hoarding happen now? Btw this is something that can be amended in the farm bills. Anti-hoarding laws can be created. Is anyone asking for this? No .. .they want a full repeal

 

State govts can keep mandis going. It's not like Mandis are self-sustaining. They are fully funded by the govt. Why should they go away?  The rest of the hypothesis below holds no weight given pt 1 and 4. Ipso facto.. hence proved LHS = RHS

 

 

Even if state does not collect Mandi tax, the farmers would prefer corporates since the initial price offered by corporates will be much higher than MSP. This is marketing 101 for big corporate, gain customer base then squeeze price. Like Jio

 

Farmers will not be forced into agreements, they will not have any other option with direct selling prices eventually falling below MSP. And there will be multiple subclauses to bargain the price later while buying. We already have an example pepsi Vs potato farmers

 

Mandis would vanish cause the state can't afford to run empty Mandis without the tax revenue. As simple as that

 

Hoarding cannot happen now but with the new amendment all non perishable like rice and Dal can be hoarded by corporates

 

 

[ash]

18 minutes ago, mishra said:

^ @ashWhat a load of crap.  Mandi is not in India apart from couple of states and farmers still hold their land all across India. In a worst case scenario, MSP for 50 quintal of wheat may just differ by Rs 50 compared to corporate buyer which may actually mean a loss of 2500 annually. That is on assumption that there is no Mandi at all.

 

Issue of farming is cost of electricity, oil and wastage and farmers productivity. Infact its even worse for vegetables. Just a example. You hear that Farmer throwing tomatoes, cabbage, spinach. Why cant a food processing company enterat village make it tinned,frozen or take it next level.

 

 

Now back to land. Land issue was related to pvt sector contracting a farmer and then screwing up farmer for non delivery of produce. This did not come into brains of so called khalistanis protesting. It came into brain of BJPites and people in ministry that this is a risk. So they resolved it by putting special clause.

 

Just in case you still dont get it. Look at Amul milk. The way it reached out to villages in Gujrat to source milk. Yes, its cheaper but villages are not wasting the milk infact there is massive increase in productivity. Same is what is being planned in farming.

What?? Mandis are common in every state , controlled by Agricultural Produce Marketing Committees (APMC) , a govt controlled body. They make sure MSP is followed for all sales. 

 

And what special clause? Can you elaborate how it will protect farmers from the subclauses in the agreement?

 

A simple question. If the govt is not in favour of corporates they can do one simple thing. Amend the bill saying that even for direct selling and corporate farming, MSP should be followed. Very simple, protects farmers also ensures new players. Will they do it? Nope cause the main aim here is to privatise farming and make profits

[MechEng]

4 hours ago, Serpico said:

This is the biggest problem with urbanites and NRIs giving away easy solutions. They refuse to look at big picture, the entire system. They look at every problem at individual level and think solutions like this are feasible on mass scale.

 

There isn't enough demand for the fricking avacados in the country. Sure a couple of farmers here and there can produce avocado and make huge profits but the millions of rice, wheat and sugarcane farmers cannot do that. Do you think if every rice farmer cultivate broccoli, everyone in the country will change their dietary habits? Have you never seen what happens when certain veggies are produced in excess? I know people who had to leave so many quintals of tomatoes in the fields to rot because the market prices in that moment don't even cover the harvesting and transportation expenses. There aren't enough storage infrastructure in the country to hold on to stuff until demand rises again. Big basket will not buy at reasonable rates if there is an option to buy them for spare change. They are answerable to their shareholders, it doesn't matter if farmers make reasonable living or not

 

You can't just ask hundreds of millions of population to buy lottery tickets every year and starve to death when their numbers aren't announced. 

 

Please, no avocados in India. It has caused water crisis in Mexico due to high demand in US.

[mishra]

1 minute ago, ash said:

What?? Mandis are common in every state , controlled by Agricultural Produce Marketing Committees (APMC) , a govt controlled body. They make sure MSP is followed for all sales. 

 

And what special clause? Can you elaborate how it will protect farmers from the subclauses in the agreement?

 

A simple question. If the govt is not in favour of corporates they can do one simple thing. Amend the bill saying that even for direct selling and corporate farming, MSP should be followed. Very simple, protects farmers also ensures new players. Will they do it? Nope cause the main aim here is to privatise farming and make profits

We have never sold anything to Mandi. Not a single villager from my hometown village has ever sold anything to Mandi because Mandi is about 20 kms away and most villagers rather choose to sell it to local Sahukar. Now thats about how and why no farmer from UP came to protest.

 

I am not a lawyer but if you know how it can be broken by contract

"http://egazette.nic.in/WriteReadData/2020/222040.pdf

Quote

8. No farming agreement shall be entered into for the purpose of—(a) any transfer, including sale, lease and mortgage of the land or premises ofthe farmer; or(b) raising any permanent structure or making any modification on the land orpremises of the farmer, unless the Sponsor agrees to remove such structure or to restorethe land to its original condition, at his cost, on the conclusion of the agreement orexpiry of the agreement period, as the case may be:Provided that where such structure is not removed as agreed by the Sponsor, theownership of such structure shall vest with the farmer after conclusion of the agreementor expiry of the agreement period, as the case may be

 

 

Now, free market is not same as introducing MSP. Take example of Amul milk. Cost of buying milk is higher if you directly buy it from owners compared to what cost you pay for Amul milk. But milk producer farmer is happy to sell it to Amul instead of wasting and has effectively increased his productivity.

[ash]

6 minutes ago, mishra said:

We have never sold anything to Mandi. Not a single villager from my hometown village has ever sold anything to Mandi because Mandi is about 20 kms away and most villagers rather choose to sell it to local Sahukar. Now thats about how and why no farmer from UP came to protest.

 

I am not a lawyer but if you know how it can be broken by contract

"http://egazette.nic.in/WriteReadData/2020/222040.pdf

 

 

Now, free market is not same as introducing MSP. Take example of Amul milk. Cost of buying milk is higher if you directly buy it from owners compared to what cost you pay for Amul milk. But milk producer farmer is happy to sell it to Amul instead of wasting and has effectively increased his productivity.

1) That is the failure of the state govt then. The answer to this is to increase the no of Mandis so that every farmer gets MSP. What this law does is remove the local middleman and replace it with corporate middleman. 

2) in the clause you have shared there is nothing about MSP, protecting farmers from subclauses etc. It just states no structure can be built and land can't be bought.