Is Mental Level of Kids across the border is higher than my Country (Pakistan)?

[Alam_dar]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

Her answers are typical what secular, leftists or congressis teach kids, she is just spouting what she has crammed. If you call that high IQ, so be it. 

 

Is it not the same with the RIGHT Wing of every religion, where they also totally brainwash their children right from the beginning? 

 

I find that non religious secular people are the ones, who are least guilty of brainwashing of their kids. 

[PunterLog]

9 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

Is it not the same with the RIGHT Wing of every religion, where they also totally brainwash their children right from the beginning? 

 

I find that non religious secular people are the ones, who are least guilty of brainwashing of their kids. 

Nope! I come from a conservative RW family. Politics wasn't dicussed with me till I was 17.

 

I told my family that I was an Atheist at the age of 14 and none of them reacted negatively, they only told me that I'll change my mind when I mature.

 

Most Hindus I know are like this i.e they don't discuss religion or politics till they become adults.

 

Which is why it's personally shocking for me to see 6 year old Muslim kids talking about killing Modi etc. It seems the hate is drilled down for the Kuffar right from a very young age.

[dial_100]

36 minutes ago, zen said:

I would be worried about the IQ of the parent for exposing the kid to dirty politics 

++

Until age of 21, dont bother kids with politics. Because politics is dirty and once you introduce that, you are filling your kids mind with that same dirt.

[coffee_rules]

52 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Is it not the same with the RIGHT Wing of every religion, where they also totally brainwash their children right from the beginning? 

 

I find that non religious secular people are the ones, who are least guilty of brainwashing of their kids. 

Politics is not one should teach their kids, our schooling is already lopsided towards one way in India and a RW way for Pakistan. AAP politics of free stuff for women. Free water and electricity will not be sustainable for countrywide propaganda

[Alam_dar]

35 minutes ago, PunterLog said:

Nope! I come from a conservative RW family. Politics wasn't dicussed with me till I was 17.

 

I told my family that I was an Atheist at the age of 14 and none of them reacted negatively, they only told me that I'll change my mind when I mature.

 

Most Hindus I know are like this i.e they don't discuss religion or politics till they become adults.

 

Which is why it's personally shocking for me to see 6 year old Muslim kids talking about killing Modi etc. It seems the hate is drilled down for the Kuffar right from a very young age.

 

@PunterLog

 

According to my observation, Muslims are most involved in brainwashing of children. 

 

Religious Christians and Religious Hindus are also somewhat involved in brainwashing, but much less than Muslims. 

 

If you are taking children to mosques, mandirs and churches, and praying there, then automatically they will get brainwashed. 

 

While Secularists/Atheists are least involved in brainwashing of children. 

 

I have seen a lot of brainwashing in Muslim Madaris, but I was shocked when I saw something similar about fanatic Hindus in the video. There is no excuse for teaching kids such hatred. 

 

 

 

[Alam_dar]

22 minutes ago, dial_100 said:

++

Until age of 21, dont bother kids with politics. Because politics is dirty and once you introduce that, you are filling your kids mind with that same dirt.

 

Why 21? 

 

A young man of 18 is fully capable to understand the politics and to have his own opinion.  He should get introduction to politics at age of 15 or 16. It is the age when kids start planning their future too, if they are going to be an engineer or doctor or writer etc. 

 

Indeed politics is dirty, but it is that reality of our life from which we could not escape. 

 

====

 

As compared to politics, in my opinion, it should be banned to take children to mosques, churches, mandirs for prayer till the age of 18.  

 

 

[coffee_rules]

16 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

@PunterLog

 

According to my observation, Muslims are most involved in brainwashing of children. 

 

Religious Christians and Religious Hindus are also somewhat involved in brainwashing, but much less than Muslims. 

 

If you are taking children to mosques, mandirs and churches, and praying there, then automatically they will get brainwashed. 

 

While Secularists/Atheists are least involved in brainwashing of children. 

 

I have seen a lot of brainwashing in Muslim Madaris, but I was shocked when I saw something similar about fanatic Hindus in the video. There is no excuse for teaching kids such hatred. 

 

 

 

Atheists brainless propaganda lumping all religions as us vs them. Kab tak chalayega ye BS?

[Mariyam]

@Alam_dar

In my limited observation:

Traditionally speaking,

Deobandis tend to ask children to learn by rote and expect strict conformance to what is taught.

 

Barelvis/ Qadri Barelvis/ Chistis in their madrassas are open with participation of the students. They are encouraged to ask. Makes a difference in their mental make up. Also makes them think on their own. Wouldn't count that as brain washing.

 

Similar situation in Pakistan?

 

[Mariyam]

12 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Why 21? 

 

A young man of 18 is fully capable to understand the politics and to have his own opinion.  He should get introduction to politics at age of 15 or 16. It is the age when kids start planning their future too, if they are going to be an engineer or doctor or writer etc. 

 

Indeed politics is dirty, but it is that reality of our life from which we could not escape. 

 

====

 

As compared to politics, in my opinion, it should be banned to take children to mosques, churches, mandirs for prayer till the age of 18.  

 

 

What is India if devoid of its various faiths? Indian culture or rather composite Indian culture is derived from its religions.

 

This ban would only make people more religious. If religion is as irrelevant in the modern world as you claim it is, it would die a natural death.

 

Most societies which tried to force shut religion have collapsed, like the Soviets. Its the societies where religion has died a natural death like the West that are still thriving. 

[Alam_dar]

10 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

@Alam_dar

In my limited observation:

Traditionally speaking,

Deobandis tend to ask children to learn by rote and expect strict conformance to what is taught.

 

Barelvis/ Qadri Barelvis/ Chistis in their madrassas are open with participation of the students. They are encouraged to ask. Makes a difference in their mental make up. Also makes them think on their own. Wouldn't count that as brain washing.

 

Similar situation in Pakistan?

 

 

I would divide Barailvis into 2 categories. One are Sufis (like Qadri/Chisti), while other ones are Shariati (i.e. Sharia). They are mostly followers of Ahmed Raza Khan Barailvi and they use green Turbans. 

 

Sufis are the most peaceful Muslims, they respect all religions. They have hardly any Madaris in Pakistan. But are limited to Shrines mostly. 

While the Shariati Barailvis are as extremist and fanatic like Deobandis. And they have a lot of Madaris in Pakistan. 

 

Unfortunately, Pakistani Barailvis are turning into Shariati too. Do you know "Maulvi Khadim Hussain Rizvi"?  This Barailvi group played important role in introduction of Blasphemy laws in Pakistan. 

 

====

 

Pakistani Shias are also divided into 2 groups. 

Malangs: They are same as Sufi Sunnis. They also don't have Madaris, but they visit shrines mostly. 

Shariati Shias: They are follower of Khamenei of Iran, or Seestani of Iraq. They are also somewhat like Deobandis. 

 

 

====

 

Traditional Hindus seem to be even slightly more liberal than Sufi Sunnis and Malang Shias. 

 

These traditional Hindus also visit shrines of Sufis, and also participate in the Muharram Activities of Shia Muslims (like Matam and Majlis). 

 

Do Sufis/Malangs visit Hindu Mandirs?  This I don't know while there are hardly any Hindu Mandirs in Pakistan. 

[Clarke]

43 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

@PunterLog

 

According to my observation, Muslims are most involved in brainwashing of children. 

 

Religious Christians and Religious Hindus are also somewhat involved in brainwashing, but much less than Muslims. 

 

If you are taking children to mosques, mandirs and churches, and praying there, then automatically they will get brainwashed. 

 

While Secularists/Atheists are least involved in brainwashing of children. 

 

I have seen a lot of brainwashing in Muslim Madaris, but I was shocked when I saw something similar about fanatic Hindus in the video. There is no excuse for teaching kids such hatred. 

 

 

 

 

So how many of these brainwashed fanatics attacked your land of the pure and waged holy war on the unbelievers ?

[Alam_dar]

22 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

What is India if devoid of its various faiths? Indian culture or rather composite Indian culture is derived from its religions.

 

This ban would only make people more religious. If religion is as irrelevant in the modern world as you claim it is, it would die a natural death.

 

Most societies which tried to force shut religion have collapsed, like the Soviets. Its the societies where religion has died a natural death like the West that are still thriving. 

 

It is not about devoiding the society from various faith, while all over 18+ are allowed to practice the faith that they choose for themselves. So, how did you come to this conclusion that banning religious brainwashing of children till age of 18 will devoid Indian society of various faiths? 

 

[Mariyam]

20 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

It is not about devoiding the society from various faith, while all over 18+ are allowed to practice the faith that they choose for themselves. So, how did you come to this conclusion that banning religious brainwashing of children till age of 18 will devoid Indian society of various faiths? 

 

The scenario you speak of is highly hypothetical. You can't just disconnect a child from his surroundings.

In the context of India religion also defines culture and culture in turn influences religion. And both form the identity of a person.

 

Take small examples: Wearing a taveez for good luck. Does it find any mention in the holy Quran or the Hadees? I don't think so. Some 'scholars' may even think its inappropriate to wear one. Its a distinctly cultural thing. 

Chaadars and dhaagas at a dargah are also distinctly cultural idiosyncrasies.

Where do you draw the line between canon and practice? To what all will you restrict exposure?

Point is, most people are Muslims (or Hindus) culturally as much as they are religiously. If not more.

When you restrict access of people to their faith, you also restrict access of people to large components of their culture.  

 

Also, I don't think there is *any* 18 year old who would pick a religion if he lived in some kind of a religious vacuum till then. Religion is not on the mind of an 18 year old, unless there is some religious value system imbibed earlier. You think an 18 year old is going to read various religious texts and compare and choose a faith for himself? He simply wouldn't care!

 

Maybe a 65 year old may turn to religion.

 

 

[BacktoCricaddict]

2 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Atheists brainless propaganda lumping all religions as us vs them. Kab tak chalayega ye BS?

As an atheist myself, it is hilarious that atheists organize and indulge in tribalism and mudslinging just like religious people.  We all just need to let individuals live their lives, and not expect anyone to believe or not believe what we believe or don't believe.  

 

Religious folks think atheists are immoral and atheists think religious folks are stupid.  Neither is true, of course.

Edited April 2, 2021 by BacktoCricaddict

[kepler37b]

3 hours ago, dial_100 said:

++

Until age of 21, dont bother kids with politics. Because politics is dirty and once you introduce that, you are filling your kids mind with that same dirt.

 

Politics is part of life. Right from family to workspace, it is everywhere. Better to teach the kid the reality. 

[Vilander]

7 hours ago, Mariyam said:

Most societies which tried to force shut religion have collapsed, like the Soviets. Its the societies where religion has died a natural death like the West that are still thriving

Yes hope religion dies in India for its own well being else we can expect Syria style civil war in India in future. 

[Alam_dar]

6 hours ago, Mariyam said:

The scenario you speak of is highly hypothetical. You can't just disconnect a child from his surroundings.

In the context of India religion also defines culture and culture in turn influences religion. And both form the identity of a person.

 

You see, it is same for Politics too. One could make political brainwashing also Halal  by citing this argument that a child could not be disconnected from his surroundings.

 

A bitter fact is this that "Religious Brainwashing" is a REALITY. And for me, it should be considered a BASIC HUMAN RIGHT of a child to protect him/her from every kind of brainwashing. It is extremely painful and a huge burden upon a child to get rid of religious brainwashing, even after becoming an adult.

 

I have personally gone through this journey, and know about the hardships. It is not only the opposition of the family and friends and society, but it is itself the FEAR of Allah, and fear of Hell Fire and Angels and death and grave. It took a time of decade for me to get rid of all these FEARS. 

 

In western society, children become independent at age of 18, and parents/family/society do not influence them too much. This helped these societies to come over the problem of religious brainwashing that they received as kids. But still it took a time of DECADES for them to come to this stage, while places like US are still struggling from it while Religious Right has formed a social environment there, which makes it difficult for children to get rid of religious brainwashing even after becoming adult. 

 

And surely, western model is absolutely not going to succeed in Islamic countries (or even in Islamic societies in the Western countries). Poor Children have absolutely not chance to get rid of this Islamic brainwashing even after becoming adult. And even if they try it, still the journey will be extremely painful for them, and they don't deserve all these sufferings only in name of preserving the so called CULTURE. 

 

[Alam_dar]

8 hours ago, Mariyam said:

Most societies which tried to force shut religion have collapsed, like the Soviets.

 

Our modern civilized model of society does not try to force to shut the religion, but it is based upon Secular Values, which allows all individuals to freely make their choices as adults. 

 

Secondly, the biggest mistake of Soviets was this that they only shut down the religions, but they didn't DIRECTLY CRITICIZE the religions.  While our modern model of society is very much based upon Science and Human Values, and there is a huge collision between Religions and Science/Human Values. 

 

This modern model of society is producing atheists and ex-Muslims like me, who directly criticize the religions and who understand the shortcomings of religions very well. It is impossible to turn ex-Muslims like me again towards Islam. I am different than the Muslims who lived under Soviet empire during soviet era. They stayed CULTURALLY Muslims, while I am not. 

 

Same is true about ex-Christians in the western society. The modern ex-Christians left Christianity due to modern Science, and it is almost impossible for them to ever return back to Christianity again. 

 

In European Countries, there are people who are converting towards Islam. But they are those Europeans who still believe in God in one way or another. There are hardly any ex-Christian Atheists who ever accept  Islam. Once you start believing in Human Evolution, then you could no longer believe in the story of Adam and Eve.  

 

 

[nikred]

 
You see, it is same for Politics too. One could make political brainwashing also Halal  by citing this argument that a child could not be disconnected from his surroundings.
 
A bitter fact is this that "Religious Brainwashing" is a REALITY. And for me, it should be considered a BASIC HUMAN RIGHT of a child to protect him/her from every kind of brainwashing. It is extremely painful and a huge burden upon a child to get rid of religious brainwashing, even after becoming an adult.
 
I have personally gone through this journey, and know about the hardships. It is not only the opposition of the family and friends and society, but it is itself the FEAR of Allah, and fear of Hell Fire and Angels and death and grave. It took a time of decade for me to get rid of all these FEARS. 
 
In western society, children become independent at age of 18, and parents/family/society do not influence them too much. This helped these societies to come over the problem of religious brainwashing that they received as kids. But still it took a time of DECADES for them to come to this stage, while places like US are still struggling from it while Religious Right has formed a social environment there, which makes it difficult for children to get rid of religious brainwashing even after becoming adult. 
 
And surely, western model is absolutely not going to succeed in Islamic countries (or even in Islamic societies in the Western countries). Poor Children have absolutely not chance to get rid of this Islamic brainwashing even after becoming adult. And even if they try it, still the journey will be extremely painful for them, and they don't deserve all these sufferings only in name of preserving the so called CULTURE. 
 

The problem here is you are projecting your personal experience as a universal truth for all religions.

I consider myself an Atheist and coming out to my family has been underwhelming and the consequences of being an Atheist Hindu are none. I am sure a more conservative family might have reacted differently but Atheism, in general, is not a big deal.

Also there is no fear factor. You are not doomed to eternal hell in Hinduism for being an Atheist.

Sent from my SM-M315F using Tapatalk

[Clarke]

10 hours ago, Clarke said:

 

So how many of these brainwashed fanatics attacked your land of the pure and waged holy war on the unbelievers ?

@Alam_dar what is the ground reality ? Significantly different from what you want to project ? Show us the numbers, will ya.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Clarke