Curious case of Shaheen Afridi - whither hype, thither reality.

[sandeep]

Bring up the name of Shaheen Shah Afridi, and most "fans" will start muttering appreciatively and talk about his quality and class as if they were unquestionable facts.  Here's some relevant statistical information:  

 

Shaheen's test bowling average in England, Aus and NZ is 43.68. His SR is 83.8.  These are conditions where the bowlers get reasonable amount of assistance.  

 

Those are not the numbers of a top shelf international bowler.  They are not even mediocre.  

 

Some more stats, this time in ODI Cricket - Shaheen Shah Afridi made the news recently for being one of Pakistan's fastest bowler to reach 50 ODI wickets.  A respectable achievement indeed - but the numbers don't lie.  Ajit Agarkar reached the milestone in fewer matches, with better economy rate and bowling average!  Yes, Ajit Agarkar!  

 

Is it just the case of being left-arm, and the lone half-decent bowler in a weak sub-par team, who gets overrated due to the rest of his bowling unit being utterly shambolic?  Just how overrated is Shaheen Afridi? 

 

Discuss.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by sandeep

[Ankit_sharma03]

14 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Shaheen's test bowling average in England, Aus and NZ is 43.68. His SR is 83.8. 

 

A huge reason for poor numbers are also lack of support bowlers. Even rabadaa numbers will take a hit now

He is still very young in his career, numbers will get better provided he has support from other end and of-course playing at home will help ur numbers even if its low slow wkts of pakistan but a player knows those pitches really well. 

He is a special talent 

 

At the end him being overrated or poor or great will depend how he ll end his career. No better examples then of Ishant n Jadeja who has changed their perception in last few yrs 

[wc2023]

16 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Bring up the name of Shaheen Shah Afridi, and most "fans" will start muttering appreciatively and talk about his quality and class as if they were unquestionable facts.  Here's some relevant statistical information:  

 

Shaheen's test bowling average in England, Aus and NZ is 43.68. His SR is 83.8.  These are conditions where the bowlers get reasonable amount of assistance.  

 

Those are not the numbers of a top shelf international bowler.  They are not even mediocre.  

 

Some more stats, this time in ODI Cricket - Shaheen Shah Afridi made the news recently for being one of Pakistan's fastest bowler to reach 50 ODI wickets.  A respectable achievement indeed - but the numbers don't lie.  Ajit Agarkar reached the milestone in fewer matches, with better economy rate and bowling average!  Yes, Ajit Agarkar!  

 

Is it just the case of being left-arm, and the lone half-decent bowler in a weak sub-par team, who gets overrated due to the rest of his bowling unit being utterly shambolic?  Just how overrated is Shaheen Afridi? 

 

Discuss.

 

Looks like you dont have grasp cricket. Test bowling is all about bowling partnerships. Iwill recomend you watch his spell in first test vs New Zealand have a look on stats of his bowling partners then comment.

 

 

[sandeep]

1 minute ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

A huge reason for poor numbers are also lack of support bowlers. Even rabadaa numbers will take a hit now

He is still very young in his career, numbers will get better provided he has support from other end and of-course playing at home will help ur numbers even if its low slow wkts of pakistan but a player knows those pitches really well. 

He is a special talent 

 

At the end him being overrated or poor or great will depend how he ll end his career. No better examples then of Ishant n Jadeja who has changed their perception in last few yrs 

By that logic, I can claim that Ajit Agarkar and Venkatesh Prasad would have been ATGs if they had "more support" from the other end.  Ultimately, the quality of a bowler has to be borne out by performances.  Everything else is subjective excuse-making!

[sandeep]

2 minutes ago, wc2023 said:

Looks like you dont have grasp cricket. Test bowling is all about bowling partnerships. Iwill recomend you watch his spell in first test vs New Zealand have a look on stats of his bowling partners then comment.

 

 

 

So the excuse for Shaheen's horribly poor test bowling performance is lack of bowling "partnerships"?  Aren't greenbro cricket "fans" like the @the don running around touting their pace bowling "depth"?  If there is much pace bowling tailunt in Pakistan, how can Afridi's poor performance be excused by lack of "bowling partners"?  

 

Which one is it? Is Pakistan suffering from a chronic inadequacy in pace bowling, or is Shaheen a poor bowler?  Please let me know using your "have grasp cricket" knowledge.  

Edited April 8, 2021 by sandeep

[wc2023]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

By that logic, I can claim that Ajit Agarkar and Venkatesh Prasad would have been ATGs if they had "more support" from the other end.  Ultimately, the quality of a bowler has to be borne out by performances.  Everything else is subjective excuse-making!

Nope Agarkar does not play any more It wiil not be wise thing to compare player who has just played 15 matches to those who have stop playing or top ranked players

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

7 minutes ago, sandeep said:

By that logic, I can claim that Ajit Agarkar and Venkatesh Prasad would have been ATGs if they had "more support" from the other end.  Ultimately, the quality of a bowler has to be borne out by performances.  Everything else is subjective excuse-making!

Venky i dnt think was some special talent. Agarkar shud always have been a permanent odi player. Didnt like him much as a test bowler. We also didnt understand format diff at that time coz balaji was given a lot of time n he wasnt a good white ball bowler. Agarkar still had decent support with guys like irfan, zak, nehra n few who kept coming. If anyone's number wud have been better due to support it was srinath. 

Had agarkar played today he wud have done way better then in that time. 

 

Bowler help n hunt in pair, if other guy cant even keep up pressure it become easy. Look at avg of shami umesh ashwin jaddu at home,they help build so much pressure that batsman have no breathing space anywhere. 

Put shaheen with bumrah, shami and ishant in indian attack and numbers wud be different. As i said also now notice rabada numbers falling in next few yrs 

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Ankit_sharma03

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Didnt like him much as a test bowler. We also didnt understand format diff at that time coz balaji was given a lot of time n he wasnt a good white ball bowler. Agarkar still had decent support with guys like irfan, zak, nehra n few who kept coming.

 

I guess you need reminding that the one time that Agarkar had Irfan bowling with him in Australia, he won a test match for India with the ball! 

 

Btw, Ankit  bhai, this thread is not to discuss the obvious merits of class acts like Srinath or Sir Aggy.

Edited April 8, 2021 by sandeep

[Jay]

8 minutes ago, wc2023 said:

Looks like you dont have grasp cricket. Test bowling is all about bowling partnerships. Iwill recomend you watch his spell in first test vs New Zealand have a look on stats of his bowling partners then comment.

 

 

thats why i believe srinath was way better than than wackqar. srinath had no support partners. if srinath had wasim to support him, his numbers would be just as good as wackaqar. bowling works in pairs. 100 hundred percent. infact bowling requires support from first change too. 

[sandeep]

2 minutes ago, wc2023 said:

Nope Agarkar does not play any more It wiil not be wise thing to compare player who has just played 15 matches to those who have stop playing or top ranked players

 

Of course you are right there.  But the only comparison made with Agarkar, is in their first 20 or so ODI matches, to demonstrate that Shaheen's ODI performances aren't that special.  And no reason to extrapolate or assume that he's automatically some sort of "great" bowler.  ODI Cricket has seen plenty of ordinary bowlers rack up respectable statistics - that is the nature of the limited overs format, where batsmen play differently. 

 

Ultimately, a cricketer's quality is demonstrated by his test match performances.  Where Shaheen Afridi, in the bowler-friendly countries of England, New Zealand and Australia, averages 43.

[Jay]

2 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

I guess you need reminding that the one time that Agarkar had Irfan bowling with him in Australia, he won a test match for India with the ball! 

agarkar is actually underrated in odi. in tests he had his moments. One guy who would have had an ATG bowling average with better partners would be srinath. Srinath in current indian attack alongside JB and MS would have a top tier sub 25 average with ease. 

[wc2023]

20 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

So the excuse for Shaheen's horribly poor test bowling performance is lack of bowling "partnerships"?  Aren't greenbro cricket "fans" running around touting their pace bowling "depth"?  If there is much pace bowling tailunt in Pakistan, how can Afridi's poor performance be excused by lack of "bowling partners"?  

 

Which one is it? Is Pakistan suffering from a chronic inadequacy in pace bowling, or is Shaheen a poor bowler?  Please let me know using your "have grasp cricket" knowledge.  

Again you are getting confused let me explain it to you

1Most of the talk about pace bowling resources  was about white bowl recourses. 

2 Go and check Shami's  stats in Australia before arrival of bumrah in test cricket and after his arrival in test cricket you will get my point

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by wc2023

[Ankit_sharma03]

7 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

I guess you need reminding that the one time that Agarkar had Irfan bowling with him in Australia, he won a test match for India with the ball! 

One 6 wkt hall in career cant change his whole career outcome and problem with him in test was his inconsistency , he kept giving a lot of loose balls so cant blame others for not creating pressure when he himself use to give those loose balls. 

Irfan bowled pretty decent on his 1st aussie tour 

 

N If u just wanna compare 2

Shaheen has an eco of 5.4 today. His test S/r is 62

Agarkar eco of 5.02 2 decades ago, those days when totals werent high this wud hurt specially when indian team cudnt save runs in field to. His test s/r is 83

Edited April 8, 2021 by Ankit_sharma03

[Ankit_sharma03]

At this point he is to young in his career to make a judgement , u can rate or not rate his talent thats a different thing . For me he is a special talent and so is Naseem shah now how will they develop will depend on themselves and their board 

[wc2023]

14 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Of course you are right there.  But the only comparison made with Agarkar, is in their first 20 or so ODI matches, to demonstrate that Shaheen's ODI performances aren't that special.  And no reason to extrapolate or assume that he's automatically some sort of "great" bowler.  ODI Cricket has seen plenty of ordinary bowlers rack up respectable statistics - that is the nature of the limited overs format, where batsmen play differently. 

 

Ultimately, a cricketer's quality is demonstrated by his test match performances.  Where Shaheen Afridi, in the bowler-friendly countries of England, New Zealand and Australia, averages 43.

Same is the case with hasan he took less matches to reach 50 odi wickets like agarkar and it showed that agarkar was also a talented block so Shaheen but no one can predict the trajectory of Shaheen 's career and one big advantage currently shaheen has over Agarkar is height. No body has called him a great fast bowler but one who has the tools to become great. You can compare his stats to other talented players  who played u19 worldcup

 

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by wc2023

[sandeep]

12 minutes ago, wc2023 said:

Most of the talk about pace bowling resources  was about white bowl recourses. 

So you are saying that Pakistan does not have good pace bowling resources for test cricket?

[wc2023]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

So you are saying that Pakistan does not have good pace bowling resources for test cricket?

I would rather use word inexperience. As in the current test squad we have two fastbowlers who have played less than 10 first class matches

[sandeep]

11 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

N If u just wanna compare 2

Shaheen has an eco of 5.4 today. His test S/r is 62

Agarkar eco of 5.02 2 decades ago, those days when totals werent high this wud hurt specially when indian team cudnt save runs in field to. His test s/r is 83

 

So who can predict the future?  Who is to say that Shaheen's numbers will not end up ultimately like Agarkar's? Start with a bang in ODI cricket, poor in test cricket apart from the odd decent bowling performance?  

 

I mean, maybe Shaheen Afridi is able to do better? But by the same token, he may do worse.  Bottomline - unlike some grandiose claims of "best young bowler", he's not even worthy to be part of that conversation - not until he improves his atrociously horrible test match performances.  Until that actually happens, should he be viewed as one of the "top quality" bowlers in cricket, or just another of the many young bowlers learning their craft at the highest level.

[Global.Baba]

He is a very good bowler. Other fans have been picking Zak and Srinath stats without context for many years. Their stats don’t justify their contribution. Not comparing SSA to those guys but, the point is 

Even for Sc spinners, Look at the difference between Kumble and Ash-Jaddu averages. Bowling in a great bowling group has many advantages.

 

He is the only top class bowler in Pak side. So most times he is the 1 in the 1.5 or 2 bowler attack Pakistan has.

 

Unfair to judge a 20 year old (give or take 2-3 years but still young) on numbers.

 

Going by what We see on the screen, one can clearly  he is clearly head and shoulders above his fellow team bowlers.

 

I have no problem in saying that after Starc and Boult, he is right there are as one of the best 3 format left arm bowlers in the world. Not the best filter to show he is good but currently there isn’t a better 3 format left arm talent in the world. Khaleel has been the biggest letdown for me. First series they looked neck and neck but Afridi has clearly won this battle, I am afraid.

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, wc2023 said:

I would rather use word inexperience. As in the current test squad we have two fastbowlers who have played less than 10 first class matches

hmmm sounds a lot like excuse factory to me.  India just won a test series in Australia with Mohammed Siraj leading the attack, and he had played 3 test matches till then.  In fact, India's pace bowlers for the deciding test match had played less than 10 test matches all together!  That didn't stop Siraj from averaging 28 with the ball against Warner, Smith, Labuschagne and co.  why make so many excuses for Shaheen?