Fans need to understand England approach will not work for Indian team.

[maniac]

Thakur can be a 4th bowler at best, Sundar at best is a 5th bowler.

 

If you want to play your best bowling attack in T20

 

Bumrah- can’t bat

Shami- can’t bat

Bhuvi- not a LoI bat, can hang in test matches 

Chahal- can’t bat

D Chahar/ R Chahar- apparently have some batting ability but unproven at any level

Ashwin- Not a LOI bat

Saini- cannot bat, few knocks and slogs or a couple of defensive knocks  don’t mean anything

Jadeja/Sundar- part of the problem statement, at best a 5th bowler

Thakur- yes but is he the best 3rd seamer? May be or maybe not.

Kuldeep- can hang around but no point in T20

Siraj- can’t bat

Umesh- can slog but not a batsmen

Prasidh- can’t bat

 

 

We have to compromise on one thing or the other 

Edited July 11, 2021 by maniac

[vvvslaxman]

I overall agree with maniac. Especially when India bats first. India is probably the worst one-dimensional team among the major nations. Batsmen can't bowl. Bowlers can't field. Let us say India is 280 for 6 at 30th over with all frontline batsmen gone. One can guarantee India will be all out for 310 well before 50th over. KL Rahul is one guy who can go after the bowling right from the word go. But unlike 90s people don't need these power plays to accelerate. Nowadays last 20 overs are the slog overs not last 10.  England made only 204 vs Pakistan in the first 30 even with 9 players in the shed. In the next 20 they scored 240 runs. 

 

There are no rules like the bygone era. You can pick and choose when you want to accelerate. 

[Lord]

8 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

I overall agree with maniac. Especially when India bats first. India is probably the worst one-dimensional team among the major nations. Batsmen can't bowl. Bowlers can't field. Let us say India is 280 for 6 at 30th over with all frontline batsmen gone. One can guarantee India will be all out for 310 well before 50th over. KL Rahul is one guy who can go after the bowling right from the word go. But unlike 90s people don't need these power plays to accelerate. Nowadays last 20 overs are the slog overs not last 10.  England made only 204 vs Pakistan in the first 30 even with 9 players in the shed. In the next 20 they scored 240 runs. 

 

There are no rules like the bygone era. You can pick and choose when you want to accelerate. 

 

that's what we get on our best day with current approach

[Suhaan]

When did India have bowlers who could bat?

The world champion 2011 side never had bowlers who could bat

Zaheer?no

Munaf?no

Sreesanth?no

Harbhajan?no,wild slogger

Ashwin?was a newcomer and barely played then

MO was strong indeed

Present Indian MO guys are not mug either,Pant,KL,SKY/ Jadeja they all can stay heck even Pandya can blast and get you to imposing totals

So,what stops top 3 to go for runs straightaway if not berserk?

Why do some of you selling stories of them being ultra caring(like parents to kids)to their side?They don't care,they don't give a hoot ,all they care about is themselves,own averages

 

[maniac]

7 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

When did India have bowlers who could bat?

The world champion 2011 side never had bowlers who could bat

Zaheer?no

Munaf?no

Sreesanth?no

Harbhajan?no,wild slogger

Ashwin?was a newcomer and barely played then

MO was strong indeed

Present Indian MO guys are not mug either,Pant,KL,SKY/ Jadeja they all can stay heck even Pandya can blast and get you to imposing totals

So,what stops top 3 to go for runs straightaway if not berserk?

Why do some of you selling stories of them being ultra caring(like parents to kids)to their side?They don't care,they don't give a hoot ,all they care about is themselves,own averages

 

Par scores in 2011 is not the same as it is in 2021. In fact you can compare the 300+
scores of the current top 3 vs how many those guys got. Rohit Sharma alone got 3 200’s since then, Dhawan and Kohli probably are right up there in the fastest to reach different batting milestones. 
 

 

[Suhaan]

2 minutes ago, maniac said:

Par scores in 2011 is not the same as it is in 2021. In fact you can compare the 300+
scores of the current top 3 vs how many those guys got. Rohit Sharma alone got 3 200’s since then, Dhawan and Kohli probably are right up there in the fastest to reach different batting milestones. 
 

 

India were still getting 330+ with ease in that era as well

In our best days today we get to 330s while in those days we used to post 350+ on number of occasions,i agree when Rohit scores he compensates for his slow start but other two aren't blessed with that kind of stroke making,hence we cannot afford all of those 3 to consume their share of 20-30 deliveries before getting a move on

[vvvslaxman]

45 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

that's what we get on our best day with current approach

 

280 in 30 overs is unrealistic even for England. So that scenario won't play out for us even on a good day. 240 in 30 overs means 8 an over. If he had lost 5 wickets will end up getting bowled out under 300. With so many one-dimensional players our only hope is having a stronger bowling unit to defend 300is total rather than expecting us to score 350 every time. Even that was not enough in Hamilton. NZ chased down 350 easily.

[vvvslaxman]

44 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

When did India have bowlers who could bat?

The world champion 2011 side never had bowlers who could bat

Zaheer?no

Munaf?no

Sreesanth?no

Harbhajan?no,wild slogger

Ashwin?was a newcomer and barely played then

MO was strong indeed

Present Indian MO guys are not mug either,Pant,KL,SKY/ Jadeja they all can stay heck even Pandya can blast and get you to imposing totals

So,what stops top 3 to go for runs straightaway if not berserk?

Why do some of you selling stories of them being ultra caring(like parents to kids)to their side?They don't care,they don't give a hoot ,all they care about is themselves,own averages

 

 

This tail is 10 times worse than them. Don't insult Zaheer :) But for Zak we would have lost atleast one match below. Imagine Bumrah in this match up against Brett Lee and Mitch  Johnson.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/australia-tour-of-india-2007-08-297424/india-vs-australia-7th-odi-297799/full-scorecard

Edited July 11, 2021 by vvvslaxman

[Suhaan]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

This tail is 10 times worse than them. Don't insult Zaheer :) But for Zak we would have lost atleast one match below. Imagine Bumrah in this match up against Brett Lee and Mitch  Johnson.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/australia-tour-of-india-2007-08-297424/india-vs-australia-7th-odi-297799/full-scorecard

Even if you add a Zaheer or a Thakur mindset of our top3 won't change

[Lord]

8 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

This tail is 10 times worse than them. Don't insult Zaheer :) But for Zak we would have lost atleast one match below. Imagine Bumrah in this match up against Brett Lee and Mitch  Johnson.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/australia-tour-of-india-2007-08-297424/india-vs-australia-7th-odi-297799/full-scorecard

 

Why are you comparing no. 9 with no. 11? Bhuvi has won games too with bat and Thakur contributes whenever he plays

[Lord]

15 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

280 in 30 overs is unrealistic even for England. So that scenario won't play out for us even on a good day. 240 in 30 overs means 8 an over. If he had lost 5 wickets will end up getting bowled out under 300. With so many one-dimensional players our only hope is having a stronger bowling unit to defend 300is total rather than expecting us to score 350 every time. Even that was not enough in Hamilton. NZ chased down 350 easily.

 

280 in 40 overs is very realistic. Even if we are 6 down by then,rest of guys can drag it to 310-320 which is what we usually get

 

However if this approach works we can push 400,which we will never with our current approach

 

No bowling can defend 300 consistently on pattas these days vs quality opposition.No wonder NZ chased it easily

[vvvslaxman]

35 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

280 in 40 overs is very realistic. Even if we are 6 down by then,rest of guys can drag it to 310-320 which is what we usually get

 

However if this approach works we can push 400,which we will never with our current approach

 

No bowling can defend 300 consistently on pattas these days vs quality opposition.No wonder NZ chased it easily

 

I said 30 overs which is improbable. Even England has never done that.   England doesn't always go bang bang in the first 10. Against India in the world cup England was 47/0 after 10 overs which is round about the same score we normally score.   At the end of 40th over ENgland was 245/3 India was 237/4 . Hardly any difference. They had Root/Stokes/Butler/Woakes/Plunkett/ARcher/Rashi all could whack.  India had Pandya/Dhoni/Jadhav. That's it.  After them Kul, cha, Shami, Bumrah.  India appallingly finished with 306/5. With 5 wickets in hand we didn't even make an attempt to win. That particular match Dhoni ditched us. But having super flaky last 4 definitely will play a role in how you start the innings.

[Serpico]

in last 3 years, England batsmen exposed their tail 20 times in ODIs because of their reckless batting. 

 

Since our batsmen are so considerate and kind towards our tail, guess how many times they exposed them? just 19 times! 

 

so what is the point of all this extra careful ball wasting when end result is same? 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Serpico

[deepdynamo]

I believe we have to identify our top 6 ODI batters sooner or later and give them as many matches as possible in their respective positions for next 3 years. England did it for 4 years and hardly changed their players and we saw what they acheived.

 

- If Dhawan is in plan, just stick with him till WC 2023. if not, no point carrying him on and instead give Shaw/Paddikal a proper go for 3 years before WC.
- If Rahul is your No. 4 then give him a go at No. 4 for three years and get him used to that position.

- With emergence of Pant at No.5, Iyer would be backup for No.4/5
- Play Hardik in a stokes type role with batting at No. 6 and as 6th bowling option.

 

Rohit

Dhawan

Kohli

Rahul

Pant
Hardik

+

5 bowlers ( some of whom can bat)

 

Compare it to probable England XI in 2023

 

Roy

Bairstow
Root

Morgan

Stokes

Butler

+

5 bowlers ( some of whom can bat)

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by deepdynamo

[Lord]

10 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

I said 30 overs which is improbable. Even England has never done that.   England doesn't always go bang bang in the first 10. Against India in the world cup England was 47/0 after 10 overs which is round about the same score we normally score.   At the end of 40th over ENgland was 245/3 India was 237/4 . Hardly any difference. They had Root/Stokes/Butler/Woakes/Plunkett/ARcher/Rashi all could whack.  India had Pandya/Dhoni/Jadhav. That's it.  After them Kul, cha, Shami, Bumrah.  India appallingly finished with 306/5. With 5 wickets in hand we didn't even make an attempt to win. That particular match Dhoni ditched us. But having super flaky last 4 definitely will play a role in how you start the innings.

 

No one is asking for 280 in 30 overs,so dont know why you brought that up in first place

 

In that game,England coasted to 160 in 22 overs.Normally they would have converted it into 370+ .But Shami and Bumrah brought us back.However because of the fast start,they still were able to score 337. More importantly,no 8-11 batted a grand total of 4 balls.None for 9-11

 

India OTOH scored 146 in 28 overs when Pant came in (not originally in squad,imagine Rayudu there).Pant stepped on the gas but still left us needing 100 in 10 overs.But Dhoni never attempted it as it was too much to do

 

But that was 2019.Now we have Rahul,Pant,Pandya instead of Jadhav,Dhoni, and Pandya.No excuse to go slow now

[ShoonyaSifar]

On 7/11/2021 at 3:13 AM, ShoonyaSifar said:

A lot of what you are writing is perception. Till 2019 WC, it was all about our top 3. It's changed since then.

 

Let's see some numbers (ODIs)

 

Between CT 2017 and 2019 WC

 

Our top 3: 60 matches, 9414 runs@60, SR of 95, 38 100s, 40 50s (outstanding, simply best in the world by some distance despite lack of aggression at the top, Eng were number 2 with 6400 runs@50, SR of 103, 22 50s and 26 50s)

 

Middle order (4-8): 60 matches, 5010 runs@31, SR of 84, 1 100 and 24 50s  (we had the worst middle order, even BD middle order had better record)

 

Since 2019 WC

 

Our top 3: 18 matches, 2365 runs@47 with a SR of 93 (decent numbers but not as dominant as earlier. BTW even Pakistani top order has done better , though vs weaker opposition)

Middle order (4-8): 18 matches, 2519 runs@47, SR of 110, 3 100s and 19 50s, best middle order in the world. We have hit 20% more 4s and 6s than any other team!

 

See the contrast? We have a much more solid and explosive middle order, this despite there being so much chopping and changing while the top 3 remain safe and are not willing to bat lower at any cost.

@maniac and @vvvslaxman

 

See the above post. Everything you guys have said was true till 2019 WC. Since then the middle order has saved us while the top order is content with accumulating runs for stats padding irrespective of match situation.

 

Adding to it, see what happened in some of the recent games and how the middle/lower order saved us

 

vs England

3rd ODI: 121/3 in 18 overs, top 3 gone, we ended with 329, won by 7 runs. Pant 78(62), Pandya 64(44), Shardul, 30(21)

2nd ODI: 158/3, 32 overs, top 3 gone, we ended with 336, lost by 6 wickets,  Rahul 108(114), Pant 77(40), Hardik 35(16). Game lost by top 3

1st ODI: 187/3, 35 overs, Rohit, Kohli out, Dhawan got out soon, we ended with 317, won by 66 runs, Rahul 62(43), Krunal 58(31). Again lower order saved us

 

vs Australia

3rd ODI: 152/5, 32 overs, top 3 + Iyer and Rahul gone, we ended with 302 runs, won by 13 runs, Hardik 92*(76), Jaddu 66*(50)

2nd ODI: Chasing 389, 225/4 in 35 overs, finished at 338/9, match lost by top 3, zero attempt

1st ODI: Chasing 374, 101/3 in 14 overs, the lower order failed except Hardik 90(76)

 

Before this the entire NZ tour ODIs were Iyer and Rahul show. Plus Rohit and Dhawan were missing, so not getting into details.

 

Either the top 3 steps up or steps aside, this has to be the mantra. Ideally among Rohit, Kohli and Dhawan, only one should be playing in the 2023 WC, and that has to be Rohit, fitness permitting and as the captain of the side. Role that Kohli has played in last 8-10 ODIs (40s and 50s at 85-90 SR) can much better be played by SKY or Kishan. Plus the younger players should be given more opportunities to bat in top 3-4 to boost their chances of bigger scores. And FFS, let younger team play vs WI and SL. Kohli's 100s can wait.

Edited July 12, 2021 by ShoonyaSifar

[Lord]

3 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

@maniac and @vvvslaxman

 

See the above post. Everything you guys have said was true till 2019 WC. Since then the middle order has saved us while the top order is content with accumulating runs for state padding.

 

Adding to it, see what happened in some of the recent games and how the middle/lower order saved us

 

vs England

3rd ODI: 121/3 in 18 overs, top 3 gone, we ended with 329, won by 7 runs. Pant 78(62), Pandya 64(44), Shardul, 30(21)

2nd ODI: 158/3, 32 overs, top 3 gone, we ended with 336, lost by 6 wickets,  Rahul 108(114), Pant 77(40), Hardik 35(16). Game lost by top 3

1st ODI: 187/3, 35 overs, Rohit, Kohli out, Dhawan got out soon, we ended with 317, won by 66 runs, Rahul 62(43), Krunal 58(31). Again lower order saved us

 

vs Australia

3rd ODI: 152/5, 32 overs, top 3 + Iyer and Rahul gone, we ended with 302 runs, won by 13 runs, Hardik 92*(76), Jaddu 66*(50)

2nd ODI: Chasing 389, 225/4 in 35 overs, finished at 338/9, match lost by top 3, zero attempt

1st ODI: Chasing 374, 101/3 in 14 overs, the lower order failed except Hardik 90(76)

 

Before this the entire NZ tour ODIs were Iyer and Rahul show. Plus Rohit and Dhawan were missing, so not getting into details.

 

Either the top 3 steps up or steps aside, this has to be the mantra. Ideally among Rohit, Kohli and Dhawan, only one should be playing in the 2023 WC, and that has to be Rohit, fitness permitting and as the captain of the side. Role that Kohli has played in last 8-10 ODIs (40s and 50s at 85-90 SR) can much better be played by SKY or Kishan. Plus the younger players should be given more opportunities to bat in top 3-4 to boost their chances of bigger scores. And FFS, let younger team play vs WI and SL. Kohli's 100s can wait.

 

Even for 2019 that approach was outdated. We just couldnt remove Dhoni hence had a consolidator at 7.Jadhav played due to 1-2 knocks and bowling which was never used in WC

[Vk1]

3 hours ago, Lord said:

 

Even for 2019 that approach was outdated. We just couldnt remove Dhoni hence had a consolidator at 7.Jadhav played due to 1-2 knocks and bowling which was never used in WC

while Dhoni's place was due to politics, keeping Jadhav for a worldcup in Eng where his part time spin would be carted mercilessly was the biggest joke.. epic misunderstanding of TM & selectors

[Ankit_sharma03]

@maniac- ye lo Pakistan batted with same approach

1st half with 4.5 RR and by the end they still made around 330

 

They are a team of 2nd half batsman and still. This is how rules are in favour of batsman today. We on the other hand are a team of 6n half batsman and have batting quality thats way way way higher then them...way higher and yet we bat so conservatively.  Its not some out of the box approach by england they have cracked the simple formula....its 50 overs and field settings, small grounds, flat decks,  big bats, 2 new white balls are enough reason to exploit full quota of 50 overs. U cant bat at 5 rr for 1st half when rules are so easy

[Suhaan]

Pakistan may have reached a score which may or may not get threatened by this England side,but against a strong England this is par/within their reach,had someone at the top batted with more intent they could have reached 360-370 that would have challenged any side

This is what we want from India,they can outbat opposition with the amount of ammo we have in our arsenal,but somehow endup giving opposition a sniff