The "Acche Din" for ICFers

[Vijy]

Just now, Gollum said:

Wrong team selection in both, wrong toss decision in former. Kohli captain in both. 

yep, the true unifying factor. btw, I edited my above post to comment on the chess aspect.

[Gollum]

13 minutes ago, Vijy said:

it's like a disease... or a skill. when one group acquires this "ability", they pass it on to others.

 

Ind cricket should take a look at both our hockey teams. they punched well above their weight. that bronze was such an amazing achievement. people said it was the first medal since 1980, but I don't rate that one highly because of how many teams were missing. we have to go back to '72 Olympics and '75 hockey WC. and these were around 45-50 years ago. where is that mental toughness and fighting attitude to come from behind in the cricket team?

Indian hockey has a culture of accountability, at least since 2016. Coaches, captains, senior players, Hockey India admins lose their jobs/positions after one major tournament underperformance. And there is no star culture any more. 

 

Cricket has zero accountability and superstar culture, not just players but even in coaching and administration. 

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, Gollum said:

Indian hockey has a culture of accountability, at least since 2016. Coaches, captains, senior players, Hockey India admins lose their jobs/positions after one major tournament underperformance. And there is no star culture any more. 

 

Cricket has zero accountability and superstar culture, not just players but even in coaching and administration. 

yes, minimal or zero accountability at all levels. it has degenerated very badly.

[Gollum]

42 minutes ago, Vijy said:

P.S. I agree regd Karpov and Anand. Poor guys. Kasparov was a beast. Would have liked to see peak Kasparov vs. peak Carlsen vs. peak Fischer. I have not seen/read much of the latter, but some think that Kasparov was the greatest in terms of consistency but that Fischer at his peak could beat anyone on his day.

Kasparov had monster preparation in 80s and 90s, first to use computers for his opening. Had a big team as well, Anand was from a country with zero chess culture, no half-decent peer otherwise apart from opening (and psychology) he was superior to Kasparov in all other aspects even in 90s. I consider Anand to be the third greatest natural talent in history (Paul Morphy and Capablanca top 2), biggest proof being he can compete at elite level in his 50s while Kasparov was retired at the age of 42 just like Kramnik. An Anand brought up in 80s Moscow would have achieved things beyond the capability of Kasparov.

 

I think Kasparov would have beaten Carlsen before computer era because the gap in opening knowledge would have been massive...Kasparov's work ethic was scary and he was very creative/dynamic with his prep. Post 2000s Carlsen clearly with the edge, he is the superior all round player with greater chess understanding. Think of Kasparov as Sampras with his GOAT serve in super fast pre-2002 grass and HC surfaces, Anand as Federer (most talented, best days in a relatively weak era, longevity another common theme) but Carlsen is like Djokovic, simply the highest level ever reached by any human in his discipline. Not many tournaments in chess in Kasparov's era but he is still my GOAT unless Carlsen is at the top for another 5 years with 2-3 more world titles. But the Norwegian is already BOAT (best, not greatest).

 

Fischer had an amazing peak in 1969-72 cycle, biggest gap between one player and the field. But by running away from Karpov in 1975 he destroyed his legacy, not a GOAT contender IMO. Winning a title is tough, but defending it is twice as tough. And let's be honest Spassky was the 2nd weakest world champion out of the 16 giants (Euwe being the weakest and most undeserving). Karpov at that time was the best Soviet player since Alekhine (1930s), Fischer avoided him and that will be a permanent black mark. Of course Americans will hype up their champion, there is the Cold War angle as well. 

 

I prefer to break the GOAT race into tiers:

1. Kasparov, Carlsen

2. Lasker, Capablanca, Karpov, Anand

3. Alekhine, Botvinnik, Tal, Fischer, Kramnik, Morphy (giant of 19th century, 4 decades before 1st undisputed world champ Steinitz)

4. Steinitz, Smyslov, Petrosian, Spassky

 

Don't rate Euwe, even non-champs like Keres, Korchnoi have a much greater legacy. Euwe was an accidental champion. 

Edited September 5, 2021 by Gollum

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, Gollum said:

Kasparov had monster preparation in 80s and 90s, first to use computers for his opening. Had a big team as well, Anand was from a country with zero chess culture, no half-decent peer otherwise apart from opening (and psychology) he was superior to Kasparov in all other aspects even in 90s. I consider Anand to be the third greatest natural talent in history (Paul Morphy and Capablanca top 2), biggest proof being he can compete at elite level in his 50s while Kasparov was retired at the age of 42 just like Kramnik. An Anand brought up in 80s Moscow would have achieved things beyond the capability of Kasparov.

 

I think Kasparov would have beaten Carlsen before computer era because the gap in opening knowledge would have been massive...Kasparov's work ethic was scary and he was very creative/dynamic with his prep. Post 2000s Carlsen clearly with the edge, he is the superior all round player with greater chess understanding. Think of Kasparov as Sampras with his GOAT serve in super fast pre-2002 grass and HC surfaces, Anand as Federer (most talented, best days in a relatively weak era, longevity another common theme) but Carlsen is like Djokovic, simply the highest level ever reached by any human in his discipline. Not many tournaments in chess in Kasparov's era but he is still my GOAT unless Carlsen is at the top for another 5 years with 2-3 more world titles. But the Norwegian is already BOAT (best, not greatest).

 

Fischer had an amazing peak in 1969-72 cycle, biggest gap between one player and the field. But by running away from Karpov in 1975 he destroyed his legacy, not a GOAT contender IMO. Winning a title is tough, but defending it is twice as tough. And let's be honest Spassky was the 2nd weakest world champion out of the 16 giants (Euwe being the weakest and most undeserving). Karpov at that time was the best Soviet player since Alekhine (1930s), Fischer avoided him and that will be a permanent black mark. Of course Americans will hype up their champion, there is the Cold War angle as well. 

 

I prefer to break the GOAT race into tiers:

1. Kasparov, Carlsen

2. Lasker, Capablanca, Karpov, Anand

3. Alekhine, Botvinnik, Tal, Fischer, Kramnik, Morphy (giant of 19th century, 4 decades before 1st undisputed world champ Steinitz)

4. Steinitz, Smyslov, Petrosian, Spassky

 

Don't rate Euwe, even non-champs like Keres, Korchnoi have a much greater legacy. Euwe was an accidental champion. 

Excellent post as always, Gollum-ji. I particularly liked the Sampras vs Federer vs Djokovic analogy.

 

My only caveat to your post is that it's hard to assess Capablanca and especially morphy since we have to go by sparse records (I do know some of their chess games were recorded) and the era was very different. hence, especially for morphy, it's hard to compare him and anand and assess natural talent. Would be nice if people made movies / TV series of the lives of these folks. perhaps we will see some interest after queen's gambit [which I liked for reasons other than chess].

[Gollum]

Ok demoted Alekhine to tier 3 since he too ran away from Capablanca, never gave the rematch. No GOAT title for cowards. 

 

Karpov had Kremlin backing and he used that to steal a world title each from Kasparov (84) and Anand (98). Also zero competition before mid-80s since Fischer was out of action. But ok, won't demote him as his legacy is too great, also Mother Russia must be represented in every tier.

 

Kramnik too avoided Kasparov and Anand post-2000....didn't give Kasparov the rematch but both parties were at fault there. And played (handpicked) weakling Leko in 2004 (even there classical ended in draw, kept the crown due to champion's privilege) full 4 years after winning the title (only Kremlin puppets get away with such BS in the chess world)....avoided Anand as much as possible but then came the Bonn beatdown in 2008. But his influence is too big to be in tier 4, modern players play his openings, his Berlin Defense changed modern chess forever. Very influential figure. 

[Gollum]

11 hours ago, Vijy said:

My only caveat to your post is that it's hard to assess Capablanca and especially morphy since we have to go by sparse records (I do know some of their chess games were recorded) and the era was very different. hence, especially for morphy, it's hard to compare him and anand and assess natural talent. Would be nice if people made movies / TV series of the lives of these folks. perhaps we will see some interest after queen's gambit [which I liked for reasons other than chess].

Truth be told I am a nobody to rate these greats. All my opinions are based on reading books by more accomplished people. 

 

Based on what even the likes of Fischer and Kasparov have said (eg. latter's fine series of books My Great Predecessors) I simply can't ignore Morphy even though he was from 1850s. He was so much ahead of his peers, so much ahead of time that his chess wouldn't pass off as a joke even in 20th and 21st century. he laid out most principles of chess which were further taken forward by other greats. 

 

And of course Capa is Capa, Karpov and Carlsen are his spiritual successors. Rarely worked on his game, Cuban ambassador to USA, his way with women which is legendary....yet 8 years without a tournament defeat. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Gollum

[zen]

A day where I can enjoy a game that goes to the wire … Appreciate good cricket from both teams … Enjoy some good food and drinks while watching the game 

 

 

[Vickydev]

1. Having an accountable leadership and TM including selectors who are not afraid to take the right calls. Basically the English Model

2. Cricketers stopped being called greats after any odd series performance. Its just them doing their jobs

 

 

[ShoonyaSifar]

Get rid of the Clown-Loudmouth clique ruling over Indian cricket and things will start to fall in place.

 

Every single problem in our cricket can be traced down to this mafia gang - yesmen coaches who owe their positions to their friendships, biased team selection with friendships preferred over merit, terrible (rather non-existent) strategies and tactical plans, no support to younger players and a dictatorial grip over media with no dissent being brooked. Earlier Dhoni was in this club as well but thankfully Covid put paid to his plans to further damage Indian cricket

[express bowling]

1)    We have 4 fast bowlers averaging less than 23 in Tests and ODIs ... and all of them bowl at 150 kph with great bouncers. And all of them are big match players.

 

2)    We win the 50 over World Cup at least every alternate time.

 

3)    We defeat Australia, England, NZ and SA, both Home and Away, regularly in test series. And any other country which becomes a Top 5 test team from now on.

 

4)    We have 4 stroke players averaging 53+ in both tests and ODIs. And all of them are big match players.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by express bowling

[speedheat]

•Would love to see at least three genuine fast bowlers bowling in tendom, capable of bowling at speeds of 150 km/h.

 

•A young wicketkeeper batsman in the style of MS Dhoni.

 

 

[Gollum]

Series win here and in RSA will go a long way. 

 

Already one hand on the trophy, hope to recreate the 2007 memory. The way Eng tortured us in the 2010s, even ATG Australia and Smith's RSA never did anything close to that!!!!

 

[Gollum]

We hold the BG trophy, Freedom Trophy (Gandhi-Mandela), Anthony de Mello wallah, home rubber against NZ, and home/away rubbers of all other countries we face these days (obviously won't play Pak any time soon). Hopefully we get to keep Pataudi trophy in 10 days time.

 

NZ away rubber is a big challenge, tbh Ind-NZ deserves to be a 4 test series. Top two sides if you look at ICC rankings, players from these 2 countries also dominate individual rankings (I think both teams combined have 5 out of top 10 in both batting as well as bowling rankings), GOAT NZ side and best or second best Indian side of all time...2 test series is a farce!!!!

Edited September 6, 2021 by Gollum

[Gollum]

Home/away test rubber wins against all sides

#1 test ranking for say 10 years non-stop

T20 WC, ODI WC and WTC trophies at the same time aka Triple Crown (by winning 2022 T20 WC, 2023 WTC/WC)

CT, Asia Cup

 

I want to us to hold all test rubbers (home/away), all ICC trophies, basically all trophies worth winning at the same time, some time this decade. Such an achievement will catapult us to ATG WI/Aus level.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Gollum

[cricketfan28]

Win ICC trophy.