Is bumrah wildly overrated in odi? Shami our best odi bowler?

[Jay]

Stats for stat nerds vs senap teams including home nation stats; figures may be rounded for some. 

 

Bumrah vs;

Pakistan - 48.35

Australia -37

England - 45.34

New Zealand - 35.6

In India - 30

S Africa - 19

Overall average vs senap - 35.667

 

Rabada vs;

Australia - 27

India - 32

England -22

New zealand - 21

Pakistan - 58

In s.africa - 30.83

Overall average vs senap - 31.88

 

Cummins vs;

New zeland - 21

Pakistan - 21.83

India - 34.84

S.africa - 33.3

England - 34.2

In Australia 28

Overall average vs senap - 28.88

 

Starc vs;

Pakistan -18

India - 39.52

S Africa - 33.94

England - 34.09

new zealand - 17.52

in australia  - 22.03

Overall average - 27.51

 

 

Shami vs;

Australia -35.44

England -25.05

New zealand - 24.61

Pakistan - 21.04

S Africa - 19.04

In India - 31

Overall average vs senap - 26.03.........the best? 

 

So shami is the best bowler in the world? Yes stats don't mean everything. You have one dimensional players like philander and Waqar averaging 22 in tests when their average vs strong teams are poor away from home. 

 

Also don't forget shami doesn't get the benefit of playing on bouncy tracks or seaming pitches in India. So take 4 points of his average in India too. Same for bumrah. However based on bilateral and icc tournament stats shami is our best bowler and top 3 in the world.

 

Boult averages 26.9 vs senap

Hazlewood averages 26.55 vs senap

 

 

My personal order now would be 

Boult

Hazelwood

Rabada

Shami

Bumrah

Cummins

 

Dint include shaheen because he hasn't played enough overseas yet. He could be top 3 in the near future if he already isn't. 

 

Shami is very underrated though. A top bowler. 

 

What's your order guys based on this list? 

[Chakdephatte]

Has the best average for any bowler with 10+ in World Cup history. We consider Zaheer a 'great' just for his performance in one World Cup, Shami performed in two. Shami is India's best ODI bowler ever and World's third best currently.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Chakdephatte

[Jay]

4 minutes ago, Banton said:

Shami is India's best fast bowler ever.

 

8 minutes ago, Chakdephatte said:

Has the best average for any bowler with 10+ in World Cup history. We consider Zaheer a 'great' just for his performance in one World Cup. Shami is India's best ODI bowler ever and World's third best among all countries.

 

 

 

 

 

he was DROPPED guys in 2019 semi final vs n.z whom he averages 24 against on flatties. DROPPED.

[Chakdephatte]

he was DROPPED guys in 2019 semi final vs n.z whom he averages 24 against on flatties. DROPPED.

But our captain developed a fast bowling culture [emoji1787]

 

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

Shami indeed has been super for us in ODIs. Still Boovi Kumar mysteriously played over our best bowler in WC 19 SF a in form red hot Shami...  Still our clueless fans believe boobeee is swing king

Edited December 18, 2021 by Lone Wolf

[vvvslaxman]

Shami was always a better bowler. A genuine wicket taker. Not someone who wants to "choke" teams. He is a double edged sword though. So we need a combination of bowlers. Bumrah's accuracy level drastically dropped post his injury. Bumrah's real effectiveness comes through when you have to defend like 12 runs in 2 overs something like that. That is where he used to be our go to bowler.  Not many in our side can do that. Bumrah still has a decent strike rate. Yes. Bumrah several times went missing for us in key matches.  Mohammad Amir stepped up for Pakistan twice. Once in 2017 final. Then the T20 match where we bundled Pakistan out for 85 runs. He reduced us to 8 for 3.  Bumrah's biggest problem is his in ability to strike upfront. Trigger a collapse. 

 

Bumrah 25% of wickets openers

Shami 28% of wickets openers

 

Bumrah 38% of wickets (no.1 to no.4)

Shami 51% of wickets (no.1 to no.4)

 

There is one area both are very good at though

 

Bumrah 37% of wikcets Lbw or bowled

Shami  35% of wickets lbw or bowled

as a comparison

Bhuvi 25% of wickets lbw or bowled. It tells you a story that how the other two tries to attack the stumps. Bhuvi has better numbers against top order. One have to agree. 

 

[Majestic]

Bumrah has much better economy. Even though he bowled final 5 overs in the death pretty much every time in 2019 WC, he still has maintained an E/R of 4.6 while for Shami, it is 5.6.

 

Shami is a wicket taker but he also ends up leaking a lot of runs. Bumrah's wicket taking ability was lost in ODIs after the injury he had but we need to see more of him now to know if it was temporary or something that is going wrong and still need to be fixed. However, with his low economy rate in this era of 330-340 runs score, he definitely has this parameter still sorted.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Majestic

[vvvslaxman]

5 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Bumrah has much better economy. Even though he bowled final 5 overs in the death pretty much every time in 2019 WC, he still has maintained an E/R of 4.6 while for Shami, it is 5.6.

 

Shami is a wicket taker but he also ends up leaking a lot of runs. Bumrah's wicket taking ability was lost in ODIs after the injury he had but we need to see more of him now to know if it was temporary or something that is going wrong and still need to be fixed. However, with his low economy rate in this era of 330-340 runs score, he definitely has this parameter still sorted.

 

India's biggest problem has always been death overs. That is where Bumrah's stock has fallen somewhat. If he is back to his best there, for that alone he can play. Such a key bowler in death overs. Infact it forces the opposition to take more risks given that Bumrah's overs will be coming in the end. But he is not the same. Even in the IPL he looked indifferent.

[Majestic]

7 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

India's biggest problem has always been death overs. That is where Bumrah's stock has fallen somewhat. If he is back to his best there, for that alone he can play. Such a key bowler in death overs. Infact it forces the opposition to take more risks given that Bumrah's overs will be coming in the end. But he is not the same. Even in the IPL he looked indifferent.

I think Bumrah has been doing pretty fine as death bowler too, not sure what the stats say though in recent times.

 

His stocks have fallen because of lack of wickets upfront. This is a guy who was averaging 22 in ODIs but now it has gone to 25 and that is in a span of 5-6 matches only. He has become a defensive bowler.

[vvvslaxman]

5 minutes ago, Majestic said:

I think Bumrah has been doing pretty fine as death bowler too, not sure what the stats say though in recent times.

 

His stocks have fallen because of lack of wickets upfront. This is a guy who was averaging 22 in ODIs but now it has gone to 25 and that is in a span of 5-6 matches only. He has become a defensive bowler.

 

Not getting his yorkers right. Either it ends up as a half volley or full toss or missing the stumps.

[ShoonyaSifar]

Till his injury Bumrah was a gun bowler across formats. Since that injury though, he's been brilliant but patchy in tests, above average in T20s and totally abysmal in ODIs.

 

The trio of Bumrah and KulCha was so dominant in the 2017-19 period. All three gradually became a pale shadow of their own self around the same te leading to return of defensive bowlers like Bhuvi, Jadeja. That reflects in our LOI performances as well.

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Till his injury Bumrah was a gun bowler across formats. Since that injury though, he's been brilliant but patchy in tests, above average in T20s and totally abysmal in ODIs.

 

The trio of Bumrah and KulCha was so dominant in the 2017-19 period. All three gradually became a pale shadow of their own self around the same te leading to return of defensive bowlers like Bhuvi, Jadeja. That reflects in our LOI performances as well.

 

Kulcha were manhandled just like everyone on those uber flat pitches in England. They paid the price. It is not wise to totally abandon a china man bowler like Kuldeep who still has incredible numbers. Most of his wickets were not like batsmen trying to go after him and getting out. He comprehensively beat them in flight. Even top players. Which spinner has not gone for runs.

[ShoonyaSifar]

24 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Kulcha were manhandled just like everyone on those uber flat pitches in England. They paid the price. It is not wise to totally abandon a china man bowler like Kuldeep who still has incredible numbers. Most of his wickets were not like batsmen trying to go after him and getting out. He comprehensively beat them in flight. Even top players. Which spinner has not gone for runs.

Kuldeep's revival (besides grooming of Chahar, Bishnoi, Markande) has to be one of the top priorities for coach Dravid and the bowling coach. Could be our match winner across formats and in all conditions for the next 7-8 years. I keep saying this repeatedly we played some of our best LOI cricket when he was the boss of middle overs in that 18  month period after CT 2017.

[kohli]

Can you post all bowlers economy against senap countries? Most of the shami wickets came in slog over over. Shami is modern version of agarkar.

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, kohli said:

Can you post all bowlers economy against senap countries? Most of the shami wickets came in slog over over. Shami is modern version of agarkar.

 

That is why we need all types of bowlers. Shami is always will always be a double edged sword. he can go for plenty. But he can also provide breakthroughs on flat surfaces. But i would reserve him just for Tests. 

[kohli]

7 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

That is why we need all types of bowlers. Shami is always will always be a double edged sword. he can go for plenty. But he can also provide breakthroughs on flat surfaces. But i would reserve him just for Tests. 

Shami is better than bhuvi in odi but bumrah >> shami.

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, kohli said:

Shami is better than bhuvi in odi but bumrah >> shami.

 

Bumrah has to strike with new ball frequently.  He has to create an opening. Otherwise he is not a complete strike bowler.

[Vilander]

Shami leaks runs going for wickets at times. 

[Vijy]

Shami is underrated in ODIs. He's like Sir Aggy, but a more clutch bowler. Boom is clearly off colour post-injury, but even before that, I remember him going missing in some important matches. with that said, Boom is still our best all-format pace bowler.

[Lord]

Shami should have played lot more ODIs. Clearly better than economy merchant Bhuvi.

 

Could have made the difference in both 2017 CT and 2019 WC semi