Does Ben Stokes seem better player just because other team members are mediocre in England test team?

[Chakdephatte]

1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

 

All I see expectations and talk by commentators.

 

How many times has he delivered with the ball?

 

How often does he perform with bat in away matches?

What do you expect from a bowler like Stokes. I count 2 wickets for less than 60 runs as a good performance. He has done that 39 times in his career.

 

Add 34 scores of 50 or more. 

[Vijy]

4 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

He is a primarily a batsman, should be averaging at least 40 with bat.

how many batting ARs apart from kallis and sobers have avg > 40 with the bat? jayasuria, to be clear, cannot count as an AR in tests (although he was definitely one in ODIs).

 

Before last 10 tests, when he is clearly out of form, Stokes had a batitng avg of close to 40. Since injuries, Covid, father's death, etc. he has not been the same cricketer.

 

Even in his bowling, he can produce something special every now and then, which is enough for a batting AR. In the 4th test in ahmedabad, both he and Anderson bowled very well.

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, Vijy said:

how many batting ARs apart from kallis and sobers have avg > 40 with the bat? jayasuria, to be clear, cannot count as an AR in tests (although he was definitely one in ODIs).

 

Before last 10 tests, when he is clearly out of form, Stokes had a batitng avg of close to 40. Since injuries, Covid, father's death, etc. he has not been the same cricketer.

 

Even in his bowling, he can produce something special every now and then, which is enough for a batting AR. In the 4th test in ahmedabad, both he and Anderson bowled very well.

Tony Greig is an example. Averages 40 with bat and 32 with bowl.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Majestic

[Lord]

12 hours ago, Chakdephatte said:

Is inconsistent with the ball but gets the job done. He is too good for a fifth bowler, can be the fourth bowler for teams like WI. It's his batting which I found to be overrated. An FTB as they say, plus never performs outside England. 

 

He has a 258 in SA. Our whole team is struggling to reach that score

[Trichromatic]

28 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

He has a 258 in SA. Our whole team is struggling to reach that score

 

258 is great score and both teams scored 600+ in that match.

[Vijy]

39 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Tony Greig is an example. Averages 40 with bat and 32 with bowl.

 

 

yes, and so does aubrey faulkner. both are rightly seen as great ARs

 

But in the last 30 yrs or so, there haven't been any notable batting ARs (with batting avg > 40) apart from kallis. for a batting AR, an avg of 38 or so is good enough provided that they take 2+ wkts per match. this yr has not been good for stokes, and if he continues down this path, he will not be regarded with the same respect. what remains to be seen is whether it's a blip or a long-term trend.

[Texan]

8 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

For Indian team, he would be just another Rahane with ability to bowl in current form.

 

He won 1 Ashes match in England. Lot of players have played great knocks without being great overall.

 

He will walk into all teams in shorter format. Question is more about tests and especially away matches.

 

Forget stats, what impact does he has in matches?

 

This is like saying that Sehwag was impact test player in SA, NZ and England and stats don't paint true picture.

 

So you are saying that he can play instead of Rahane if he was Indian

 

You didn't answer about NZ but I think he could easily play in place of either Rachin Ravindra or Henry Nicholls in NZ team. 

 

That gets him into two of the top ranked Test sides. So how is he average?

 

How many other fast-medium bowler/ batsmen allrounders are around in World cricket today?

 

He is definitely not among the World's greatest allrounders like Kapil, Imran, Keith Miller, and I am not even going to mention ATG allrounders like Sobers and Kallis, but he gets the job done. He is more like a Flintoff, probably slightly better and he has contributed to crucial wins.

 

As for impact, you can't win a World Cup final everyday or batting with last man to win a crucial Test against archrivals everyday. It happens only once or twice in a lifetime. He has also made crucial contributions at other times.

 

Overall, he is definitely a very good cricketer who can find a place in pretty much any current team. There are hardly any fast bowling allrounders in the current generation as this is a very rare breed of cricketers. 

[putrevus]

2 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

258 is great score and both teams scored 600+ in that match.

Kallis and Sobers are not born every day. They are once in a lifetime players.Stokes is mini Kallis in test cricket , who was also better batsman than a bowler. He is better than Kallis in shorter formats.

[Texan]

Did Stokes just answer OP?

[putrevus]

8 hours ago, countryside said:

Rich man's Stoinis at par with Faheem ashraf ( Faheem has respectable numbers in loi )

Do you think from your Behind?

Edited January 7, 2022 by putrevus

[GeeGaw]

8 hours ago, Texan said:

Did Stokes just answer OP?

 

No.  That pitch completely died, the ball went soft and if England hadn’t nailed the bail to the stump it would have been just another ordinary innings for one of the most overrated cricketers ever.  Stokes gets hyped because there is no one else besides Holder, Ashwin and Jadeja in the world today that are even passable AR’s.

[Texan]

2 hours ago, GeeGaw said:

 

No.  That pitch completely died, the ball went soft and if England hadn’t nailed the bail to the stump it would have been just another ordinary innings for one of the most overrated cricketers ever.  Stokes gets hyped because there is no one else besides Holder, Ashwin and Jadeja in the world today that are even passable AR’s.

 

LOL. You guys just can't appreciate good innings when it is played by a player you don't like.

 

They were 36/4. How did the pitch suddenly die? They had reached a similar position in MCG Test (22/4 then) and got bundled out for 68 in that innings. How did the ball not go soft then at MCG?  Sure that ball that did not dislodge the bail was pure luck, but batsmen do get luck when they play such innings. He still made the most of it and got the runs, which is what matters in the end. Remember, he was injured and batting through his injuries and still played a good innings to rescue his team when most needed.

[Lord]

20 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

258 is great score and both teams scored 600+ in that match.

 

they were 4-167 when he came in. Great innings

 

Was replying to 'never performs outside Eng' part. Also has tons in India and at Perth

[Majestic]

Stokes is a very good player but overrated. He is no better than Flintoff, Cairns etc.

[Lord]

2 hours ago, GeeGaw said:

 

No.  That pitch completely died, the ball went soft and if England hadn’t nailed the bail to the stump it would have been just another ordinary innings for one of the most overrated cricketers ever.  Stokes gets hyped because there is no one else besides Holder, Ashwin and Jadeja in the world today that are even passable AR’s.

 

Shakib,Thakur are proven ARs

[goose]

the English will tell you his mere presence in the side gets others performing better. no stat will tell you that, they will say. that's the debate....

[goose]

is 'impact player' an unconscious label for doing well in games the fans care about?

[Vijy]

I doubt how much stokes will have with ball from now on (fitness issues), but he may go on to become a pure batter given paucity of eng batting.

[Chakdephatte]

On 1/6/2022 at 11:01 AM, Trichromatic said:

Batting averge of 35. He is better than others, but just an average batsman.

 

Bowling wise he is 5th bowler without much impact.

 

Rarely performs anything of note in away matches.

 

This thread is looking better with each passing series.

 

Looks disinterested. Playing cameos or nothing.

[vvvslaxman]

He is MSD of England team lol