#HijabRow in Karnataka Schools - where do you stand?

[Alam_dar]

19 minutes ago, Pollack said:

A child is born innocent. Parents teach them to live a life a particular way. They teach them what is right or wrong. If teaching religion is forcing children then everything is forced since a child has no decision making or choice when he is born. Even the intelligence to make a choice is acquired based on environmental or upbringing.

 

I still believe, from the depths of my heart, there is big difference in the teaching of right and wrong, and the teaching of religious stories. These are not the rights and wrong, but the religious stories which are the cause of problems.

 

Rights and wrongs are same universally. Even if a man is living in a jungle without any civilization, still humanity in him guides him automatically to distinguish between right and wrong. While the religious stories are different everywhere, and humanity never guides a man in jungle to any of these religious stories.

 

A child should be taught and encouraged to do his own research, and then to follow his own path later. This is the best path for the humanity to survive, in my humble opinion.

 

[maniac]

7 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

A child should be taught and encouraged to do his own research, and then to follow his own path later. This is the best path for the humanity to survive, in my humble opinion.

 

That would lead to even more confusion. Give the kid everything in black and white. Don’t lie, don’t be selfish be kind to others, be nice to animals, respect nature etc etc

 

I am sure we all were told that and what are the odds we follow all those rules a 100%?
 

the binary moral foundation gives us a sense of right from wrong. It’s not practical that we are 100% saints. 
 

 However having a sense of what you are doing and minimizing and avoiding such situations is what is the point there. 
 

Infact overloading kids with information is also a problem which we see with Muslims especially in Pakistan. That’s what leads to is Hand sanitizer halal or jinn vs bhoot kind of questions.

[ravishingravi]

1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

My Final Verdict upon Muskan (Hijab) case as a True Secularist

In a True Secular State, a woman should have right to wear whatever she wants. 

This right could not be snatched away from them in name of Uniform. 

Moreover, the opponents have still not given any satisfactory answer if they are going to prohibit Sikh Turban and beard, Sindoor, Mangal Sootar and Rings in fingers in name of uniform too?

 

But, not only Hijab, but each and every Religious Activity should be banned for children under the age of 18 years in a True Secular State

I consider it to be an utmost DUTY of a true Secular State to protect the rights of the children. And the most important right of children is to stop the parents to tell them that they are Muslims or Christian or Sikh or Hindu by birth. And to stop the parents to make children to pray either in the house or in the mosque/mandir/church. And there should be no Quran Madrassa for the children. And there should be no Hijab for the girls till the age of 18 years. And there should be a ban upon the circumcision of the young boys. 

And after 18, everyone should have the right to follow and practice any ideology/religion at his/her own. 

 

Tajikistan has already banned Hijab and Mosque for the Children under the age of 18

Tajikistan has already banned for the parents to take their children to the mosque, or the young girls to take Hijab. 

European countries should also follow this true spirit of the Secularism, and save the children from any religious brainwashing from their parents. But it will become difficult, while not only Muslims in Europe will oppose it, but even some of the Christian families could also object upon it. Especially in America, religious Christians are also hardcore Christians. 

 

In a True Secular India too, all religious activities should be banned for the children under the age of 18. Unfortunately, not only Indian Muslims would object to it, but many of the Hindus will oppose it too along with the Christians. 

Note:
I have not written it as a non-religious person (atheist), but as a true Secularist. 
Atheism is limited to my individual personal life only. But Secularism is "sacred"  and our "collective life" as a society should be governed through Secularism. 

 

I think self identification is not required if arguments are strong and coherent. You are equating turban with burkha. That's just bad argument. 

 

This is clear case of school uniform. Norms within the school have to be accepted by all. Uniform cannot be compromised. If you were bangles, it is not a hindrance to school uniform. In fact the word "uniform" should be clear enough. 

[ravishingravi]

 

[ash]

2 hours ago, Pollack said:

A child is born innocent. Parents teach them to live a life a particular way. They teach them what is right or wrong. If teaching religion is forcing children then everything is forced since a child has no decision making or choice when he is born. Even the intelligence to make a choice is acquired based on environmental or upbringing. Regarding mangalsutra, I haven't encountered any practising Hindu woman who hate wearing a mangulsutra and is forced to do so. Most like to flaunt it and even improvise. 

There is absolutely no need to include religion to make children understand about right or wrong. 
 

And reg mangalsutra, I know women who complain that their mother in law forces them to wear it all the time, it does not suit western clothes, uncomfortable etc. As I said, no one has the data.

 

As a Hindu, you just have an inherent bias that EVERY Muslim women is forced to wear Hijab, but Every Hindu woman enjoy wearing mangalsutra. Obviously both the statements are not true, no data exists to support these claims.
 

That’s why before accusing others, it is better to just think how it will be if the roles are reversed. For all the temporary feminists who suddenly care so much about Indian women, Are you prepared to abolish all patriarchal practices in your religion? If yes, then comment about Hijab. If not, then you are just an hypocrite. 
 

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by ash

[jf1gp_1]

I just have one question. Where is my religious free on Diwali ? Why are all pollution morality lessons only left for me when clearly problem is not just crackers ?

[Yoda-esque]

Rupesh pandey killed by 21 "nice" people..but let's keep being blind.

Kishan,Lavanya and Rupesh all in the past two weeks..but no channel will show this

[ravishingravi]

 

[ravishingravi]

3 hours ago, Yoda-esque said:

Rupesh pandey killed by 21 "nice" people..but let's keep being blind.

Kishan,Lavanya and Rupesh all in the past two weeks..but no channel will show this

@ash would say you have inherent bias counting only Hindu death by Muslims. Ideally to create objectivity you should focus on death of Dalit by Hindu upper caste. There can be good and bad taliban. There can also be good and bad oppression. 

[ash]

1 hour ago, ravishingravi said:

@ash would say you have inherent bias counting only Hindu death by Muslims. Ideally to create objectivity you should focus on death of Dalit by Hindu upper caste. There can be good and bad taliban. There can also be good and bad oppression. 

This is a question that is asked to all atheists in India, why concentrate only on Hindu issues. The answer is simple, an atheist movement in any country will target the majority religion in that country. I am a former Hindu turned atheist, I know about the religion, so I speak more against it. An atheist in Pakistan would similarly speak more against Islam, an atheist in UK will be against Christianity. It does not mean that we agree to other religion principles and ideology. 
 

It is also about what to speak to a particular audience. If I am in a forum with right wing Muslims, I would speak about Islam and the atrocities by the extremists But ICF is predominately filled with  Right wing Hindus, so obviously I will stress more about Caste issues. There is no use is feeding to the echo chamber without challenging anything. You have the whole forum to support your posts about “Hinduphobia”, you don’t need me

[Yoda-esque]

This is a question that is asked to all atheists in India, why concentrate only on Hindu issues. The answer is simple, an atheist movement in any country will target the majority religion in that country. I am a former Hindu turned atheist, I know about the religion, so I speak more against it. An atheist in Pakistan would similarly speak more against Islam, an atheist in UK will be against Christianity. It does not mean that we agree to other religion principles and ideology. 
 
It is also about what to speak to a particular audience. If I am in a forum with right wing Muslims, I would speak about Islam and the atrocities by the extremists But ICF is predominately filled with  Right wing Hindus, so obviously I will stress more about Caste issues. There is no use is feeding to the echo chamber without challenging anything. You have the whole forum to support your posts about “Hinduphobia”, you don’t need me

The question is why nobody is giving any headlines to this sort of news.




In all of the three cases , reverse the religions and see how the media would react.

[coffee_rules]

On 2/11/2022 at 7:21 AM, Yoda-esque said:

Shekulars here should ask for progressive Muslims to intervene instead of supporting this .

But shekularism ki goli Jo khaayi hai

For progressive Muslims, it’s all a game

 

 

[coffee_rules]

On 2/11/2022 at 10:37 AM, ash said:

Lol at people acting as if they are doing a service to Indian Muslim women by wanting to ban Hijab 

 

Nobody here in this thread is talking about banning Hijab in society. Just let them respect the laws of the school to remove it in classrooms. You are doing what secularists and Islamists are doing - fear mongering that Hijab is bein banned by Hindus. 

On 2/11/2022 at 10:37 AM, ash said:

Religion as a concept is forced by parents on their children. No child learns about a particular religion on his own. There is no data available on how many people actually believe in religion vs how many are forced to follow some rituals by parents.

 

They are doing it so their children can be useful individuals to the society after they are gone. 

On 2/11/2022 at 10:37 AM, ash said:

Are all muslim women forced to wear Hijab? Are all Christians willingly going to church on a Sunday or forced by parents? What about mangalsutra, are all married women happy to wear it, or forced by the elders in their house. Do Brahmins kids  like wearing the threads or forced?? NOBODY KNOWS, we don’t have the data. 
 

How come there are movements in Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia against hijab wearing then?  Malala, in her book has explained how it was forced and she felt like being in a shuttle-cock (in her own words), she’s a darling of liberals  .  

On 2/11/2022 at 10:37 AM, ash said:

 

An atheist Can make a sweeping statement like 90 percent of kids in all religions are brainwashed, so let’s ban religion. Will anyone agree?

 

Unless you are Mao and kill all who don’t agree! 
 

On 2/11/2022 at 10:37 AM, ash said:

 

 

 
 

First understand the issue, the debate is not if Hijab, or turban or cross is right or wrong. The issue is about freedom to practice religion. 

 

 

No it is not. The debate is whether kids are allowed to against the very basic idea behind a uniform and to remove hijab respectfully to adhere to rules made by the school.

[coffee_rules]

23 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

I don't think any Liberal is in favour of Hijab on the personal level, especially if it is "forced" upon the girls and women. 

But the problem arises when Muslim girls/women are brainwashed to such an extent, where they themselves want to take Hijab. 

Now we have 2 ways of liberating the Muslim women. 

 

First is to remove their Hijab by force, and the 2nd one is to make them realise themselves that Hijab is not liberating them, but it is only making their lives miserable. 

 

Secularists are not in favour of the first option. Reason is simple that it backfires and Muslim women will start taking more and more pride in taking Hijab as a "reaction", and Muslim radicals will get a lot of support. 

 

The 2nd option is difficult one, and needs a lot of patience, but this is indeed the correct and the better option. In this case, Muslim women/girls will themselves fight against Islam and the radical Muslims. 

 

Moreover, I have got 100% success when I brought this truth to the Muslim women/girls that Hijab was not introduced in Islam for any modesty, but it was introduced only in order to differentiate between the free Muslim woman and the slave woman. Prophet Muhammad not only prohibited Hijab for the slave-women, but their breasts were naked too in Islamic Sharia. 

 

Problem lies in our ignorance. 
99% Muslims of today don't know it (It was the same that 99% Muslims didn't know that Islam permits the owner to rape his slave-girl without her consent. But the present world came to know about this truth only after ISIS started raping the Yazid girls in name of slavery). 

 

The day, when we start telling the Muslim women/girls about this truth of naked slave-women and how Hijab was used to discriminate against them, that day will be the last day of Islamic Hijab. 

 

Yes, only Muslims have to be cajoled, handled with kid gloves and coaxed into reform, for the rest it can be forced by law. Otherwise, they blow themselves and others up. Rest are saying , enough is enough

[coffee_rules]

22 hours ago, Pollack said:

A child is born innocent. Parents teach them to live a life a particular way. They teach them what is right or wrong. If teaching religion is forcing children then everything is forced since a child has no decision making or choice when he is born. Even the intelligence to make a choice is acquired based on environmental or upbringing. Regarding mangalsutra, I haven't encountered any practising Hindu woman who hate wearing a mangulsutra and is forced to do so. Most like to flaunt it and even improvise. 

Parents should not even tell them who their parents are, otherwise they will come to know their identity. They should all be like manufactured units with all having the same ideology .

 

Education should not include History because then they pick sides and start hating others. That will poison their minds with bias and bigotry.

 

They should certainly not be taught politics, as they will learn to choose good over evil, as sometimes there are necessary evils.

 

No philosophy, science theories, biology that can be explained by theories like evolution. Only teach them how to count and avoid all critical thinking. Otherwise , they will end up as RW trolls in life, 

[coffee_rules]

21 hours ago, Yoda-esque said:

22 hours ago, Pollack said:

A child is born innocent. Parents teach them to live a life a particular way. They teach them what is right or wrong. If teaching religion is forcing children then everything is forced since a child has no decision making or choice when he is born. Even the intelligence to make a choice is acquired based on environmental or upbringing. Regarding mangalsutra, I haven't encountered any practising Hindu woman who hate wearing a mangulsutra and is forced to do so. Most like to flaunt it and even improvise. 

The girl in question has been shown wearing all sorts of dresses .So not sure she's forced.Its just mischief.

It’s her choice when and where she chooses to wear what, but she can’t be allowed to choose to disrupt in a classroom, against pre-agreed upon rules, that is anarchist 

[velu]

29 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

No philosophy, science theories, biology that can be explained by theories like evolution. Only teach them how to count and avoid all critical thinking. Otherwise , they will end up as RW trolls in life, 

 

 

kids should be allowed to choose their gender .. ever heard about gander neutral parenting ?

 

 

 

[coffee_rules]

1 minute ago, velu said:

 

 

kids should be allowed to choose their gender .. ever heard about gander neutral parenting ?

 

 

 

This is a true reality in US California. KIds are allowed to choose a gender when they are 12 and without parental guidance and supervision. Read this

 

 

[Alam_dar]

4 hours ago, ash said:

This is a question that is asked to all atheists in India, why concentrate only on Hindu issues. The answer is simple, an atheist movement in any country will target the majority religion in that country. I am a former Hindu turned atheist, I know about the religion, so I speak more against it. An atheist in Pakistan would similarly speak more against Islam, an atheist in UK will be against Christianity. It does not mean that we agree to other religion principles and ideology. 
 

It is also about what to speak to a particular audience. If I am in a forum with right wing Muslims, I would speak about Islam and the atrocities by the extremists But ICF is predominately filled with  Right wing Hindus, so obviously I will stress more about Caste issues. There is no use is feeding to the echo chamber without challenging anything. You have the whole forum to support your posts about “Hinduphobia”, you don’t need me

 

This is 100% true for us (the Pakistani atheists) too. 

I am the only Pakistani atheist who is present here, rest 99.99% of Pakistani atheists are busy in criticizing Islam. 

And  the biggest objection by Pakistani Muslims is also the same, where they are always asking: "Why Only Islam? Why do you (i.e. the Pakistani atheists) don't condemn Christianity and Hinduism etc. ?". 

[Alam_dar]

4 hours ago, Yoda-esque said:

The question is why nobody is giving any headlines to this sort of news.

In all of the three cases , reverse the religions and see how the media would react.
 

 

This is also exactly the same on the Pakistani side. 

 

The right wingers are constantly blaming the Media and the Pakistani NGOs and liberals/Secularists of bashing only Islam and Pakistan in name of defending the minorities. And thus, all of them (i.e. Media, NGOs, Liberals) are traitors to Islam and the state of Pakistan, whose aim in only to defame Pakistan/Islam.