Play pakistan more often

[Sharjah-Harjah]

17 hours ago, mani sha said:

I remember jadeja knock vs waquar .. the match was hyped up in 1996 I think as india was not playing pakistan much due to tensions , match fixing in Sharjah 

 

we won . After that we played them regularly in Toronto , toured pak and their bowlers were not a novelty . 
 

feel india not playing pak enough gives their bowlers a huge advantage . Shaheen barely plays against india and hence they do better against our ageing batters .. 

 

 

 

 

Weirdest arguments ever. The side in Toronto didn’t have waseem, Waqar, Shoaib and Saqi.  India beat second string bowling in Toronto. 
 

When India visited Pak in 2004, Wasim and Waqar had just retired and Pak was rebuilding with brand new pacers. 
India continued to struggle against these bowlers throughout until they got injured or retired.

Saqi wasn’t available in 2004 ODI series due to the knee injury. He featured in that lone test in 2004 when he was finished and playing through a knee injury. 

Or Akhtar post 2008. 
 

At their peaks, india was never comfortable anywhere and anytime, apart from some notable exceptions like the 2003 WC match. 

[AKane]

16 minutes ago, Sharjah-Harjah said:

Weirdest arguments ever. The side in Toronto didn’t have waseem, Waqar, Shoaib and Saqi.  India beat second string bowling in Toronto. 
 

When India visited Pak in 2004, Wasim and Waqar had just retired and Pak was rebuilding with brand new pacers. 
India continued to struggle against these bowlers throughout until they got injured or retired.

Saqi wasn’t available in 2004 ODI series due to the knee injury. He featured in that lone test in 2004 when he was finished and playing through a knee injury. 

Or Akhtar post 2008. 
 

At their peaks, india was never comfortable anywhere and anytime, apart from some notable exceptions like the 2003 WC match. 

If you make exceptions and excuses whenever Pak did badly and just count matches otherwise then obviously you will come up with results you like.

 

Pak lost 1996 and 1999 WC ties with India as well. Waqar was flogged in 1996 by Ajay Jadeja.

 

The overrated Pak pace bowlers in pace bowler friendly Australia with Wasim and Waqar never managed to draw a series there never mind win one.

 

A pace bowling attack of Siraj/Thakur/Natarajan and Saini with a total of less than 10 matches played all together added up took 20 wickets at the Gabba in 2021 to win a match there. We did not make excuses. We won.

 

Wasim and Waqar never did anything similar in Aus.

 

[the don]

4 hours ago, sandeep said:

Thats shoulda coulda woulda.  With the ball getting older, every chance that Pandu/Kishan could have handled a couple of those overs, and then even the likes of Jaddu/Thakur could have whacked the weaker bowlers in the end.  

 

People get overawed with the early impact of the bowling and extrapolate unnecessarily.

The last three balls Kishan faced from haris. He was beaten on all theee occasions before the pacers were taken off. 
more chance of the pacers cleaning them up in 3,4 overs than vice versa

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, the don said:

The last three balls Kishan faced from haris. He was beaten on all theee occasions before the pacers were taken off. 
more chance of the pacers cleaning them up in 3,4 overs than vice versa

 

There is more chance of India scoring quickly as well. Haris Rauf is an over-rated bowler. Will be shown up shortly in the world cup.

[Sharjah-Harjah]

1 hour ago, AKane said:

If you make exceptions and excuses whenever Pak did badly and just count matches otherwise then obviously you will come up with results you like.

 

Pak lost 1996 and 1999 WC ties with India as well. Waqar was flogged in 1996 by Ajay Jadeja.

 

The overrated Pak pace bowlers in pace bowler friendly Australia with Wasim and Waqar never managed to draw a series there never mind win one.

 

A pace bowling attack of Siraj/Thakur/Natarajan and Saini with a total of less than 10 matches played all together added up took 20 wickets at the Gabba in 2021 to win a match there. We did not make excuses. We won.

 

Wasim and Waqar never did anything similar in Aus.

 

My entire argument was that it’s not true that Indian batters got better just by playing Wasim, Waqar, Saqi and Akhtar overtime. At their peak, Indian batters mostly struggled against the 90s core Pakistani bowling unit, and given law of averages, Indian batters also got the better of them sometimes. 
 

Not sure what you are trying to say? Are you saying Nataranjan/Saini/Thakur are better bowlers than Wasim/Waqar because they featured in a test team that won a test series in Australia. 
not only is this argument outrageously 

stupid but it is also nonsensical. 
Wasim Akram for example has an all time best average of 23 in Australia vs  Aus over 3 series down under played against arguably one of the best test batting sides in the history of cricket. 
Pak did win a test match in Aus vs Aus in the 90s and was fairly competitive in the 99 test series against an all time great Aussie side down under, which has no comparison to the Mickey Mouse Aussie side India beat recently.
Anyway, going by your argument, Sachin, Dravid, batch was worse because they never won anything in Aus. Obviously that’s not true. They were miles ahead of Rahane, Pujara and co 

[AKane]

29 minutes ago, Sharjah-Harjah said:

Wasim Akram for example has an all time best average of 23 in Australia vs  Aus over 3 series down under played against arguably one of the best test batting sides in the history of cricket. 

It wasn't the greatest when Akram was playing them in early 90s.

 

For example Akram has 36 wickets in Aus at average of 24.05 - with not a single series drawn.

 

Kapil Dev has 51 wickets in Aus at average of 24.58 - with multiple series drawn including the 1981 series with Lillee/Chappell/Walters/Marsh.

 

I am not saying Akram was not good - he was just no John Snow or Malcolm Marshall who led teams to wins in Aus. He could not even help his team draw......like your own Imran and Sarfraz in 1976.

 

Also I am not playing the game of  "oh Pak lost because they played strong teams" - "oh India won because they played poor teams."  You play the opponent in front of you..... not make excuses. You have not even drawn against the supposed weak Aus side.

 

All I am saying is stop making excuses and exceptions and plain whining.

 

We do not whine but play even with Siraj/Thakur/Natarajan/Saini and accept the result either way. Win or lose but stop the excuses and whining.

Edited September 3, 2023 by AKane

[Singh bling]

15 hours ago, nevada said:

Uh, no. 

Just don't play them at all is my preferred option. But greed has taken over. 

Please also ask Neeraj chopra not to participate in olympic or any event where Nadeem quality and compete with him.

[Sharjah-Harjah]

22 minutes ago, AKane said:

It wasn't the greatest when Akram was playing them in early 90s.

 

For example Akram has 36 wickets in Aus at average of 24.05 - with not a single series drawn.

 

Kapil Dev has 51 wickets in Aus at average of 24.58 - with multiple series drawn including the 1981 series with Lillee/Chappell/Walters/Marsh.

 

I am not saying Akram was not good - he was just no John Snow or Malcolm Marshall who led teams to wins in Aus. He could not even help his team draw......like your own Imran and Sarfraz in 1976.

 

Also I am not playing the game of  "oh Pak lost because they played strong teams" - "oh India won because they played poor teams."  You play the opponent in front of you..... not make excuses. You have not even drawn against the supposed weak Aus side.

 

All I am saying is stop making excuses and exceptions and plain whining.

 

We do not whine but play even with Siraj/Thakur/Natarajan/Saini and accept the result either way. Win or lose but stop the excuses and whining.

Again, I am not sure what your argument’s logic is? 
 

I am not making any excuses about India’s exceptional wins in the WC against Pak. They played well on the day and won the game. 
 

That said, overall, the Indian batting unit struggled against Pakistani bowling in the 90s, and Indian batters didn’t get “better” overtime against that unit just by playing them. That’s all. Indian team did better against the post-2004 crop aka Sami, Rana, Asif, Shabbir, Afridi, Malik etc All Pakistanis consider that 2004-2008 as one of the weakest bowling units Pakistan has ever fielded. 
 

 

As for winning test series, it’s a stupendously nonsensical argument to say that a single player or 2 can win you a test series against any team. It’s a team game. What Wasim did achieve was the he was extremely competitive against peak Aussie side of 92-2003 though out his career. He was instrumental in Pakistan test series wins in England TWICE. And he also helped Pak win a test match in SA and Aus. 
 

I think India’s test series win Aus was a BIG achievement. But you cannot compare this Aussie side with that of the 90s/early 2000s. I am not sure if you were watching cricket back then, but that Aussie side was nearly impossible to beat in their backyard. 
 

Sachin was one the greatest batters in history of cricket. How many test series did Sachin win India in Aus? Is he worse than Rahane? 

[AKane]

2 hours ago, Sharjah-Harjah said:

it’s a stupendously nonsensical argument to say that a single player or 2 can win you a test series against any team.

1) Go look at Frank Tyson vs Australia in 1954/55 - England won series 3-1

Aus won first test, Lindwall hit Tyson on head.... angering Tyson. Bill Edrich thought Tyson was dead...."My God, Lindy, you’ve killed him!"

 

"I was very, very angry with Lindwall," Tyson wrote. "And the whole of the Aussie team knew it... I would return the bouncer with interest!"

 

In the next three tests that England won - Tyson did this

4/45   6/85

2/68   7/27

3/85   3/47

 

25 wickets for 357 runs at 14.xx each

 

2)Go look at Richard Hadlee vs Aus in 1985 - NZ won series 2-1

9/52 6/71

5/65 2/68

5/65 6/90

 

33 wickets for 411 runs at 12.xx each

 

3)Go look at Curtly Ambrose vs Aus in 1992 - WI won series 2-1

Aus led the 5 test series 1-0 going into the 4th test. WI won 4th test by 1 run and last test by innings.

6/74 4/46

7/25 2/54

 

Sure it is a team game but these were the outstanding performers who won series for teams in Aus. All three were Man of Series performers for winning team.

 

 

BTW the match Pakistan and Wasim Akram won in Aus was in 95/96. 3 match series Aus already had won 2-0. Pakistan won the third match in a dead rubber which meant nothing. Not bad but you have to win matches when it counts......

 

 

[Sharjah-Harjah]

In 

12 minutes ago, AKane said:

1) Go look at Frank Tyson vs Australia in 1954/55 - England won series 3-1

Aus won first test, Lindwall hit Tyson on head.... angering Tyson. Bill Edrich thought Tyson was dead...."My God, Lindy, you’ve killed him!"

 

"I was very, very angry with Lindwall," Tyson wrote. "And the whole of the Aussie team knew it... I would return the bouncer with interest!"

 

In the next three tests that England won - Tyson did this

4/45   6/85

2/68   7/27

3/85   3/47

 

25 wickets for 357 runs at 14.xx each

 

2)Go look at Richard Hadlee vs Aus in 1985 - NZ won series 2-1

9/52 6/71

5/65 2/68

5/65 6/90

 

33 wickets for 411 runs at 12.xx each

 

3)Go look at Curtly Ambrose vs Aus in 1992 - WI won series 2-1

Aus led the 5 test series 1-0 going into the 4th test. WI won 4th test by 1 run and last test by innings.

6/74 4/46

7/25 2/54

 

Sure it is a team game but these were the outstanding performers who won series for teams in Aus. All three were Man of Series performers for winning team.

 

 

BTW the match Pakistan and Wasim Akram won in Aus was in 95/96. 3 match series Aus already had won 2-0. Pakistan won the third match in a dead rubber which meant nothing. Not bad but you have to win matches when it counts......

 

 

Look I haven’t seen any of those series so I cannot comment. 
But based on my experience having seen test cricket for 25 years, I’ve never seen 1 player win you an away test series, particularly down under. 
Yes, 1 person may be instrumental, but you do need strong contributions from most of the team.

The 90s Pak batting unit wasn’t competitive in Aus (still isn’t), and coupled with team infighting, it meant that team generally underperformed during the 90s. 

 

You conveniently ignored my question twice about whether Rahane is better than Sachin because the former helped India win a test series but the latter didn’t. The silence answered the question. 

[AKane]

Just now, Sharjah-Harjah said:

You conveniently ignored my question twice about whether Rahane is better than Sachin because the former helped India win a test series but the latter didn’t. The silence answered the question. 

Rahane won a series in Aus - Sachin did not. Nobody can take that away from Rahane or from Siraj/Thakur/Natarajan/Saini when they won a deciding test at the Gabba (first time since 1988)  to win series.

 

Yes I would say Rahane has performed better in Aus than Sachin has. Especially as a captain.

 

We are talking about main performers in the side - you seem to imply I said that some passenger in a winning team is better than the main player on the losing team. No. But there are main players on winning teams that have generally performed better than main players on losing teams. Even across series's.

19 minutes ago, Sharjah-Harjah said:

Yes, 1 person may be instrumental, but you do need strong contributions from most of the team.

Yes Akram down under was never instrumental. Imran Khan in 1976/77 was helping win the third test and draw the series.

6/102  6/63

[nevada]

4 hours ago, Singh bling said:

Please also ask Neeraj chopra not to participate in olympic or any event where Nadeem quality and compete with him.

Neeraj Chopra is not participating in a direct, one on one duel with Nadeem. 

[rageaddict]

5 minutes ago, nevada said:

Neeraj Chopra is not participating in a direct, one on one duel with Nadeem. 

 

If there is a Pakistani participating in any final events, any self respecting Proud Indian should bow out. Why share the stage with the Pakistanis who kill your brave jawans on the border ? 

 

 

[rageaddict]

4 hours ago, Singh bling said:

Please also ask Neeraj chopra not to participate in olympic or any event where Nadeem quality and compete with him.

 

Veer Jawano ki kurbaani comes to memory only against Pakistan in Cricket matches, woh bhi is limited to Bi-Laterals and IPl only . baaki time sab chalta hai. Hockey, Football main unki C Class  teams ko yaha India main host kar ke third class tournaments like SAFF/ Asian Champions Trophy ko hype karte hai baaki federations wale to garner more eyeballs . 

 

 

[mani sha]

9 hours ago, Sharjah-Harjah said:

Weirdest arguments ever. The side in Toronto didn’t have waseem, Waqar, Shoaib and Saqi.  India beat second string bowling in Toronto. 
 

When India visited Pak in 2004, Wasim and Waqar had just retired and Pak was rebuilding with brand new pacers. 
India continued to struggle against these bowlers throughout until they got injured or retired.

Saqi wasn’t available in 2004 ODI series due to the knee injury. He featured in that lone test in 2004 when he was finished and playing through a knee injury. 

Or Akhtar post 2008. 
 

At their peaks, india was never comfortable anywhere and anytime, apart from some notable exceptions like the 2003 WC match. 

During sachin sehwag time , only peak saqlain troubled Indians .

 

we played them a fair bit and the novelty factor was out . 
 

a lot of ind pak contests these days are hyped up . 
 

surely if a 5 match series is played , rohit will find a way or get kicked out if he keeps on getting out to left arm Insswing

 

These one off contests don’t do justice . 
 

also , pak didn’t play much of peak india in tests last 6/7 years .or odi . 
 

now that they have three express pacers , decent batsmen , they look like a better team . Historically they were a better team in 80s in Sharjah but current team is their best ever imo ( better than Imran’s team too - Imran lucked out , Babar temperament is much better and calmer - most likeable pak cap ever after inzy ) 

[Sharjah-Harjah]

What are these Sachin/Sehwag times? Saqlain withered away 2001/2002 due to his knee injury. This is even before Sehwag came into the picture. 

You mustn’t have seen cricket in the 80s and the 90s to even venture to say that because Shoaib, Saqi, Wasim, Razzak, Aqib Javed completely dominated Indian batting units bar Sachin. The embarrassment eased after the arrival of Ganguly and Dravid in the late 90s, but it wasn’t until the arrival of Yuvi and Sehwag, and retirements of Wasim, Waqar and Saqi, than India started to get a upper hand around 2004/2005. But even then, surprisingly the record in 2000-2010 period is pretty even in ODIs (18/20).

India team performed better in 2010s no doubt about that. 
 

But this was nothing compared to the utter domination of IK’s team on India.
 

ODIs 25

Pak: 20

India: 4

Tie:1 

 

Test: 15

Pak: 5

india: 0

Tie: 10

 

Yea, current team is pretty good but nowhere near 80s levels. 
 

as for Rohit learning, so will the bowler no. 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Sharjah-Harjah

[SM2907]

Play with Pakistan. why? They are killing our soldiers on the border in the name of religion

[Norman]

1 hour ago, Sharjah-Harjah said:

What are these Sachin/Sehwag times? Saqlain withered away 2001/2002 due to his knee injury. This is even before Sehwag came into the picture. 

 

So in the earlier post, you were saying Pakistan missed Saqlain in 2004 and now you're saying he withered away in 2001? You seem riled up right now.. go take some break and come back some other time , kid. 

 

 

[Gollum]

Want more Indo-Pak hockey action, we used to play 6/8 games test series in 80s, 90s and early 00s. Bilateral cricket is anyway dying. 

[Nikhil_cric]

What is the point? That top 3 is designed to get owned by bowling lineups. Cricket has changed a lot. Having too many similar batsmen - Rohit, Virat, Gill, KL - all right hand , mostly side on narrow stance batsmen is a recipe for disaster in modern LOI cricket. 

 

No left handers, No batsmen who look to alter lengths by moving in the crease or play unorthodox laps and scoops, or with a naturally open stance etc.  - it's such a static lineup that it just hurts the eyes watching them.