Revisiting 2003 WC final

[putrevus]

27 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

McGrath was greatest match winner in tests for Aus.

 

But his abilities in ODIs are overvalued. He was still great ODI bowler, but Aus didn't have good 4th and 5th bowlers many times.

He might not have taken bulk load of wickets in 2003 finals.Him taking out Sachin early was match over for India.India had no chance after Sachin.

 

Only match I can think where Mcgrath was not upto the mark was 1999 semis vs SA. Warne won that match to start their dynasty.

 

Mcgrath usually took out the best batsman on the other side.Aussies had good enough scores to put pressure if they batted first or had decent support bowlers to finish the job.

Edited November 17, 2023 by putrevus

[nevada]

28 minutes ago, Ranvir said:

Exactly. England finally won the ashes in 2005, the two matches they won were when he was out injured. The greatest fast bowler of all time. 

Yeah, England really lucked out with that injury to McGrath. He retired after taking the most wickets in the 2007 WC at the age of 37. Champion cricketer.

[AKane]

That rain shower also made a difference.

 

Sehwag had hit Brad Hogg for 20 runs in an over. The commentators got nervous. 

 

Then the rain shower came which totally slowed down the outfield. Only the pitch square was covered and not the outfield. The scoring rate dropped for 2 or 3 overs.

 

Then Sehwag was run out in 24th over with score at 147.... again because the scoring had slowed due to the outfield.

[neel roy]

23 minutes ago, AKane said:

Go back to the group league match between SA and Aus this year and see how mercilessly SA had thrashed Aus. The final was a different result.

 

Go back to the 1975 group league match between WI and Aus and see how mercilessly WI had thrashed Aus. The final was a 17 run decision and very close influenced by 4 runouts.

 

Don't read too much between group level matches and finals.

He played safe.If he elected to bat and India were 100/7 the mdeia would have castigated him saying its a repeat..why did you bat first..he took the safer option which in hindsight was wrong..also i would rather blame the TM for choosing to bowl..John Right Dravid all were part of the TM along with Kumble and Srinath..they should have analysed the conditions better.. better to lose toss I guess..2011 wc 

[AKane]

10 minutes ago, neel roy said:

He played safe.If he elected to bat and India were 100/7 the mdeia would have castigated him saying its a repeat..why did you bat first..he took the safer option which in hindsight was wrong..also i would rather blame the TM for choosing to bowl..John Right Dravid all were part of the TM along with Kumble and Srinath..they should have analysed the conditions better.. better to lose toss I guess..2011 wc 

Even with fielding first it might have worked if the pace bowlers had not bowled like they were having a hangover from prev nights binge. 

 

Besides Harbhajan in his first spell - no one bowled to their ability. Zaheer was awful.

 

How would Ganguly know that his bowlers would put on this show......

[R!TTER]

Zaheer was a spray gun that time, he didn't have the control of a decade later - Nehra & even Srinath were better handling it. Zaheer was a nervous wreck against Bangers as well in 2007 opener, from memory Munna outbowled him that game & he supposedly had great control at the time.

[AKane]

Let me switch sports for a bit. To American football.

 

The Buffalo Bills lost 4 superbowls in a row 1991/2/3/4. Only first one were they competitive till wide right by Scott Norwood. 92/93 were blowouts and 94 they were okay until the Thurman Thomas fumble. Blown out after that.

 

The disturbing thing I have read is that  the Bills players  partied very hard in the week before each of  the 92/93/94 Superbowl. Even their opponents said that. That answers the terrible play in the final game. Getting drunk the whole week before will do that to you.

 

Maybe the Indian team in 2003 partied hard before the final. Maybe....The Bollywood idiots had descended on the match.The bowling was not just nervous but totally inept. Even a late night will take the edge off the effort.

 

The Pak team in 1999 I believe partied hard too. They had beaten Aus in the league game and after the SA defeat in semis thought victory was in the bag.

 

Stay focused before the big game. This hopefully Dravid will ensure and most of these guys are 30+ so this is not a new thing for them. I think the fact that it is Aus will ensure they stay focused and not complacent. Plus they have beaten Aus in Aus and it holds no terrors for them.

Edited November 17, 2023 by AKane

[deathmonger]

2003 batting was almost as good as the Aus one with SRT, Sehwag, Ganguly, Dravid, Yuvraj etc. bowling was big difference.

 

Lee, McGrath and Hogg are great ODI bowlers.

 

We never had a truly great ODI bowler until Bumrah, Shami, Kuldeep etc.

[Serpico]

Don't know about parties but Sachin said something like they couldn't sleep properly for a week before the match. Not sure what the coaches and supporting staff were doing when players were that anxious 

[AKane]

5 minutes ago, Serpico said:

but Sachin said something like they couldn't sleep properly for a week

The semifinal between India and Kenya was 20th March and the final was 23 March. Just 3 days between them.

 

Anyway this is ridiculous if true for likes of Sachin and Srinath. Sachin had been playing for 14 years and Srinath in probably his last year as a bowler... Even Ganguly and Dravid were not pups.

 

I can slightly understand for Zaheer and Nehra and Yuvraj..... but still I think the lack of sleep was more parties than nervousness.

[Trichromatic]

26 minutes ago, deathmonger said:

2003 batting was almost as good as the Aus one with SRT, Sehwag, Ganguly, Dravid, Yuvraj etc. bowling was big difference.

 

Lee, McGrath and Hogg are great ODI bowlers.

 

We never had a truly great ODI bowler until Bumrah, Shami, Kuldeep etc.

 

Skills matching can be seen in their performances vs different teams.

 

Zimbabwe

India bowled out Zim for 172, while Aus let me score 246/9 in 50 overs. Andy Blignaut smashed one of fastest 50s of the WC.

India scored 255/7 in 50 overs, Aus scored 248/3 in 47 overs.

 

England

India totally smashed England team. Scored 250/9 in 50 overs and then bowled out England for 168.

Aus struggled badly v England. While chasing 205, they were 175/8 and then Bevan/Bichel saved them.

 

Pakistan

Aus were 146/5 and required big knock from Symonds to get to 310. Then they bowled out Pakistan for 228.

Indian bowlers were not effective v Pakistani batsmen, but Indian batsmen completely owned Pakistani bowlers.

 

Sri Lanka

Aus scored 319 and bowled out Lanka for 223 in super six. Aravinda went mad v Aus bowlers and smashed them all over.

India scored 292 and bowled out Lanka for 109. Bigger thrashing.

 

Kenya

Kenya were bowled out for 174 and I remember watching this match where Asif Karim was making fool of Ponting. He came up with figures of 7 runs in 8 overs for 3 wickets. Aus chased this ultimately thanks to early overs onslaught by Gilchrist. He hit some big sixes in that match. Kenya batted better v India and scored 225. India lost early wickets and eventually chased that target in 47 overs. 

 

New Zealand

Shane Bond totally owned Aus by reducing them for 87/8. He had bowling figures of 6/23 and eventually Bichel-Bevan saved Aus again.

India dominated NZ right from start, dismissed them for 146 and chased target in 40 overs.

 

Most of the teams performed better v Aus than v India.

[Number]

50 minutes ago, deathmonger said:

2003 batting was almost as good as the Aus one with SRT, Sehwag, Ganguly, Dravid, Yuvraj etc. bowling was big difference.

 

Lee, McGrath and Hogg are great ODI bowlers.

 

We never had a truly great ODI bowler until Bumrah, Shami, Kuldeep etc.

The match winning impact of Hayden, Gilchrist, Ponting, Symonds and Bevan was way higher than our batsmen.

Yuvraj was just 21, could win games on his day but his game awareness was still amateurish. 

Aussies came to India in 2003 Oct(5-6 months later) without McGrath, Warne, Lee and Gilespie for ODI tri series and comfortably thrashed our full strength team in 3 out of 4 games.

The gulf between 2 teams was just huge. It is almost like Bangladesh-India today.

It is a consoling mechanism for Indian fans to blame toss and other factors. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Number

[putrevus]

23 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Skills matching can be seen in their performances vs different teams.

 

Zimbabwe

India bowled out Zim for 172, while Aus let me score 246/9 in 50 overs. Andy Blignaut smashed one of fastest 50s of the WC.

India scored 255/7 in 50 overs, Aus scored 248/3 in 47 overs.

 

England

India totally smashed England team. Scored 250/9 in 50 overs and then bowled out England for 168.

Aus struggled badly v England. While chasing 205, they were 175/8 and then Bevan/Bichel saved them.

 

Pakistan

Aus were 146/5 and required big knock from Symonds to get to 310. Then they bowled out Pakistan for 228.

Indian bowlers were not effective v Pakistani batsmen, but Indian batsmen completely owned Pakistani bowlers.

 

Sri Lanka

Aus scored 319 and bowled out Lanka for 223 in super six. Aravinda went mad v Aus bowlers and smashed them all over.

India scored 292 and bowled out Lanka for 109. Bigger thrashing.

 

Kenya

Kenya were bowled out for 174 and I remember watching this match where Asif Karim was making fool of Ponting. He came up with figures of 7 runs in 8 overs for 3 wickets. Aus chased this ultimately thanks to early overs onslaught by Gilchrist. He hit some big sixes in that match. Kenya batted better v India and scored 225. India lost early wickets and eventually chased that target in 47 overs. 

 

New Zealand

Shane Bond totally owned Aus by reducing them for 87/8. He had bowling figures of 6/23 and eventually Bichel-Bevan saved Aus again.

India dominated NZ right from start, dismissed them for 146 and chased target in 40 overs.

 

Most of the teams performed better v Aus than v India.

India lost the match in their minds before they even took the field.

[AKane]

9 minutes ago, putrevus said:

India lost the match in their minds before they even took the field.

Or the previous night with the "lack of sleep" due to nervousness or.... partying. Take your pick. I pick party.

[putrevus]

8 minutes ago, AKane said:

Or the previous night with the "lack of sleep" due to nervousness or.... partying. Take your pick. I pick party.

I don't think party was an issue at all. Sachin or other guys were not that kind.

 

They had no self confidence as they needed extra batsmen when they had  6 legit batsmen plus batsmen who could bowl if needed.

 

Your Bills analogy is also wrong imo.Bills did not lose those last three super bowls because they partied the night before.

 

Bills had no chance in those as they faced better teams.Who came from a tougher conference fighting lot of good teams in NFC.

 

Scott Norwood game was their only chance and it was wide right.

Edited November 17, 2023 by putrevus

[Andy]

1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Skills matching can be seen in their performances vs different teams.

 

Zimbabwe

India bowled out Zim for 172, while Aus let me score 246/9 in 50 overs. Andy Blignaut smashed one of fastest 50s of the WC.

India scored 255/7 in 50 overs, Aus scored 248/3 in 47 overs.

 

England

India totally smashed England team. Scored 250/9 in 50 overs and then bowled out England for 168.

Aus struggled badly v England. While chasing 205, they were 175/8 and then Bevan/Bichel saved them.

 

Pakistan

Aus were 146/5 and required big knock from Symonds to get to 310. Then they bowled out Pakistan for 228.

Indian bowlers were not effective v Pakistani batsmen, but Indian batsmen completely owned Pakistani bowlers.

 

Sri Lanka

Aus scored 319 and bowled out Lanka for 223 in super six. Aravinda went mad v Aus bowlers and smashed them all over.

India scored 292 and bowled out Lanka for 109. Bigger thrashing.

 

Kenya

Kenya were bowled out for 174 and I remember watching this match where Asif Karim was making fool of Ponting. He came up with figures of 7 runs in 8 overs for 3 wickets. Aus chased this ultimately thanks to early overs onslaught by Gilchrist. He hit some big sixes in that match. Kenya batted better v India and scored 225. India lost early wickets and eventually chased that target in 47 overs. 

 

New Zealand

Shane Bond totally owned Aus by reducing them for 87/8. He had bowling figures of 6/23 and eventually Bichel-Bevan saved Aus again.

India dominated NZ right from start, dismissed them for 146 and chased target in 40 overs.

 

Most of the teams performed better v Aus than v India.

 

 

This is more identical to how this WC campaign is going for both the teams except for the head to head result in the group game.

[Bigg Brother]

First heartbreak 

[AKane]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

Your Bills analogy is also wrong imo.Bills did not lose those last three super bowls because they partied the night before.

 

Bills had no chance in those as they faced better teams.Who came from a tougher conference fighting lot of good teams in NFC.

Er... not just the night before, rather the whole week before. Not just the defeat, the manner of defeat.

 

Bills in 1993 regular season vs NFC east 4-0.

Bills defeat Redskins  24-10

Bills defeat Giants    17-14

Bills defeat Cowboys 13-10

Bills defeat Eagles 10-7

 

Then the crapshow in the superbowl. Check Thurman Thomas performance in SB 1992/93/94. Absolute crap. Compare with the reserve back and the reserve was much better.

 

Here is their partying reference. Darren Woodson their opponent with the Cowboys said this about Buffalo

 

“As much as everyone talked about how much experience the Bills had back then, they partied harder than any other team. That’s all we heard about the entire week in L.A., the (Cowboys) first Super Bowl.

“They (Bills players) were out Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Couple guys got into altercations in the clubs, older, veteran guys with the Bills.

“Experience doesn’t mean that much, it’s all about leadership. There’s a reason they (Bills) lost four Super Bowls. They partied harder than any other team.”

 

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/darren-woodson-bills-lost-super-bowls-due-excessive--nfl.html

 

There are other references too + talk on the Bills message boards.

 

I am not saying the Redskins and Cowboys were not better. Just trying to guage the absolute sh!tshow the Bills put up....

 

Similarly Aus was better in 2003 - but our bowlers put up a sh!tshow that is hard to understand. They were simply not prepared - physically. Not just nervous.

Edited November 17, 2023 by AKane

[goose]

i flew out for just the one day to the Wanderers, that was painful

 

 

[AKane]

Here is what I think of 2003 vs 2023.

 

For some reason we were physically not ready in 2003. I think late night partying may be to blame. Maybe. They seemed hung over on match day. Some say sleeplessness due to nervousness. Oh please.....sleeplessness I agree, reason I don't.

 

In 2023 if we get enough practice and enough rest and good sleep - we will annihilate this Aus team, "clutch gene" and all.

 

In 2023 if team gets into parties with Bollywood starlets before the match, we will lose and lose badly.