Performances of Indian spinners

[Lord]

4 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

One legend single handedly destroyed, 2 dreams

1. Ashwin getting 500 wickets

2. Bumrah getting a 10fer in Tests

Guess who ? 

[vvvslaxman]

12 hours ago, Number said:

Nice data.

Kuldeep needs to bowl faster in high 80s or early 90s to be successful in India. Wrist spinners who have been successful in India have bowled at higher speeds like Kumble.

Even Rehan looked more threatening than him because of the speeds he bowled. 

 

 

Kuldeep off the pitch is slow. SHane warne's balls would fizz off the surface. That doesn't happen. Because not enough shoulder into it. He has great skill. But this is somethign he has to work on. Even from his shots you can see how powerless he is. He lacks upper body strength. 

[rollingstoned]

4 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Kuldeep off the pitch is slow. SHane warne's balls would fizz off the surface. That doesn't happen. Because not enough shoulder into it. He has great skill. But this is somethign he has to work on. Even from his shots you can see how powerless he is. He lacks upper body strength. 

These balls would zip through more on quicker SENA surfaces. In the first test 2nd innings even on a slow pitch Hartley bossed us by slowing it up even more. 

[Gollum]

Ashwin is looking old and unfit, latter we have seen before but first time we are seeing the effect of age, this decline is sudden and always irreversible as we have seen with many players of the past. It is time to thank him for his services and move on, should happen latest by NZ series this year, ideally before that, definitely can't take him to Aus. Jadeja too is 35 now and spends more time injured than on field. Kuldeep must step up now, he will lead our spin attack for next 5-6 years, at least. 

 

Axar has been the worst spinner from both sides, can't believe how much he has declined in the last 2 years. He should be in his prime now, just turned 30 and enough experience of 15 odd tests. Once we set right our batting we must look for a better spinner than Axar. 

Edited February 7 by Gollum

[Gollum]

While we talk about spinners performance, must take into account the difference in approach between the English batsmen and our donkeys. English are simply batting at a higher level, very positive and decisive with footwork/shot selection, also throwing bowlers off with their unorthodox shots, never allowing quiet passage of play.....these things * up rhythm/mindset of bowlers, we have seen Sehwag and Pant do the same to great spinners like Saqlain, Murali and Lyon.

 

Our guys except Jaiswal (and Gill in one innings) have been too meek and confused against their spinners, making them look much better than they are....even Iyer has looked so tentative against spin. This English team has a fabulous batting unit and an incredibly weak spin unit......forget Swann/Lyon/Herath, these 3 English spinners aren't even of the calibre of Leach/Maharaj/Moeen/Ajaz. 

Edited February 7 by Gollum

[R!TTER]

5 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

SHane warne's balls would fizz off the surface.

Fizz like what, Appy fizz? His biggest strength was his turn followed by his accuracy, though you could argue him outfoxing the batter/being smarter was what led to it but that's a separate aspect. Purely in terms of skill his side spin & his pin point accuracy made him lethal, that fizz you claim is the exaggerated spin he got buy bowling slower. What changed in 2004 Tour to India? He was bowling slightly quicker but more importantly he had a holding role IMO, the pacers were kinda looking for the wickets - the biggest difference was Oz batted first in 3 games & put big runs on the board. Gillespie was their biggest weapon that series!

[Number]

7 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Kuldeep off the pitch is slow. SHane warne's balls would fizz off the surface. That doesn't happen. Because not enough shoulder into it. He has great skill. But this is somethign he has to work on. Even from his shots you can see how powerless he is. He lacks upper body strength. 

A bit worrying really. The way even tailenders could comfortably camp on the backfoot against him in the second innings. That said, he was brought quite late where England sort of had shut the shop so should be given some benifit of doubt.

 

This was Kumble exactly 25 years ago from today, totally relying on speed variations and some top spin and bounce, destroying a line up of good players of spin. Look at the speeds he is bowling. I think on slower tracks like in India turn is overrated, it will be negated by slowness of the pitches. Variations in speed is a bigger weapon. Video link

 

 

 

Edited February 7 by Number

[Gollum]

Rohit brought Kuldeep late, how demoralizing it must have been for him to watch Axar's darts for 1.5 hours on day 4 morning. Ashwin bowled 2 overs out of 1st 25, later didn't bowl before Stokes got set, in 1st innings he had to wait for 3 hours before his second spell and he did poorly after that. Field set was defensive. These things also matter. Stokes is outcaptaining Rohit by a big margin this series and the difference shows. 

 

Ok Ashwin, Jadeja have enough experience, must be used to these things. But Kuldeep is young and has been handled terribly by captain in later stages of WC as well as here. 

 

For Indian conditions especially, Rohit is our worst captain. Even Azhar was better at handling spinners in the 90s, our worst ever decade. 

Edited February 7 by Gollum

[R!TTER]

21 minutes ago, Number said:

A bit worrying really. The way even tailenders could comfortably camp on the backfoot against him in the second innings. That said, he was brought quite late where England sort of had shut the shop so should be given some benifit of doubt.

 

This was Kumble exactly 25 years ago from today, totally relying on speed variations and some top spin and bounce, destroying a line up of good players of spin. Look at the speeds he is bowling. I think on slower tracks like in India turn is overrated, it will be negated by slowness of the pitches. Variations in speed is a bigger weapon.

Few things - Pak isn't that great against good spin, the gold standard was India then SL followed by Pak & then the rest. Kotla was notorious for being up & down back in the day, it was also winter so a lot more variable bounce - Kumble took wickets through bounce more than anything else, the uneven pitch & some amount of moisture at Delhi helped. Kumble was unique in that sense as he had a lot of wickets in front of the wicket, bat pad/silly point etc. Even Harbhajan was mostly like that, modern spinners get more wickets in slips/rely more on lbw & bowled. Even spin bowling has fundamentally changed from back then, so unlike Kumble who tried to bounce the bowl, his high release helped, modern spinners would generally like to target the stumps or try to get them caught behind or in the deep. This is important because modern batters have more shots against spinners but also they don't use the feet as much these days, so in some ways it's slightly harder to deceive them on length unless you're bowling massive loopy deliveries & then slipping in a faster one regularly. So one type of spin bowler will not work everywhere all the time, we need at least a couple of them different from each other.

[singhvivek141]

6 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Few things - Pak isn't that great against good spin, the gold standard was India then SL followed by Pak & then the rest. Kotla was notorious for being up & down back in the day, it was also winter so a lot more variable bounce - Kumble took wickets through bounce more than anything else, the uneven pitch & some amount of moisture at Delhi helped. Kumble was unique in that sense as he had a lot of wickets in front of the wicket, bat pad/silly point etc. Even Harbhajan was mostly like that, modern spinners get more wickets in slips/rely more on lbw & bowled. Even spin bowling has fundamentally changed from back then, so unlike Kumble who tried to bounce the bowl, his high release helped, modern spinners would generally like to target the stumps or try to get them caught behind or in the deep. This is important because modern batters have more shots against spinners but also they don't use the feet as much these days, so in some ways it's slightly harder to deceive them on length unless you're bowling massive loopy deliveries & then slipping in a faster one regularly. So one type of spin bowler will not work everywhere all the time, we need at least a couple of them different from each other.

Exactly, simply relying on variations isn't going to help spinners as the batters will look to attack them for anything that's not turning. Batters are more evolved these days in hammering the spinners which can immediately bring the overall effectiveness down.

 

Kuldeep need to learn big turners like Warne, something which will pitch on 5th-6th stump of a righty and then turn to knock up the leggie. 

Just like pace & bounce, modern day batters are better against top spin...modern day batters struggle against swing and seam more, spinners can also deceive them with big turners.

[vvvslaxman]

17 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Exactly, simply relying on variations isn't going to help spinners as the batters will look to attack them for anything that's not turning. Batters are more evolved these days in hammering the spinners which can immediately bring the overall effectiveness down.

 

Kuldeep need to learn big turners like Warne, something which will pitch on 5th-6th stump of a righty and then turn to knock up the leggie. 

Just like pace & bounce, modern day batters are better against top spin...modern day batters struggle against swing and seam more, spinners can also deceive them with big turners.

 

Rehan turned some of the ball square. Cross batted slog even against long hops when it turns that big is risky. Right now his turn is too subtle.

[putrevus]

8 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Exactly, simply relying on variations isn't going to help spinners as the batters will look to attack them for anything that's not turning. Batters are more evolved these days in hammering the spinners which can immediately bring the overall effectiveness down.

 

Kuldeep need to learn big turners like Warne, something which will pitch on 5th-6th stump of a righty and then turn to knock up the leggie. 

Just like pace & bounce, modern day batters are better against top spin...modern day batters struggle against swing and seam more, spinners can also deceive them with big turners.

The biggest issue for Kuldeep is he is not a right arm leg spinner.Most Indian spinners have more top spin than side spin.

 

Kuldeep turn even if it is big will be coming into RHB very slow.They have all the time in the world to read him off the pitch.

 

IMO he needs to get more of Crawley's dismissals.For that to happen he needs to lock the batsmen on the crease. can he do it consistently is the question.

Edited February 7 by putrevus

[ShanS]

I believe Kuldeep used to turn the ball more before he modified his action. 

[Vijy]

On 2/7/2024 at 12:55 PM, ShanS said:

I believe Kuldeep used to turn the ball more before he modified his action. 

yes, he lost some spin and added some pace (though not enough)

[Vk1]

On 2/6/2024 at 10:13 PM, R!TTER said:

Few things - Pak isn't that great against good spin, the gold standard was India then SL followed by Pak & then the rest. Kotla was notorious for being up & down back in the day, it was also winter so a lot more variable bounce - Kumble took wickets through bounce more than anything else, the uneven pitch & some amount of moisture at Delhi helped. Kumble was unique in that sense as he had a lot of wickets in front of the wicket, bat pad/silly point etc. Even Harbhajan was mostly like that, modern spinners get more wickets in slips/rely more on lbw & bowled. Even spin bowling has fundamentally changed from back then, so unlike Kumble who tried to bounce the bowl, his high release helped, modern spinners would generally like to target the stumps or try to get them caught behind or in the deep. This is important because modern batters have more shots against spinners but also they don't use the feet as much these days, so in some ways it's slightly harder to deceive them on length unless you're bowling massive loopy deliveries & then slipping in a faster one regularly. So one type of spin bowler will not work everywhere all the time, we need at least a couple of them different from each other.

exactly.. catches at silly point and short leg have become very rare as our spinners don't get the bounce like bhajji & kumble used to get