Pace bowlers rescued the spinners in the finals.

[AKane]

15 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Pandya is not a proper pacer, doesn't complete his quota half the time. 

Er ...... in the two completed matches of Aus and SA with 20 overs each 

 

Aus - 3 pacers bowled 12 overs (full quota), 3 spinners bowled 8 overs (2/3rds quota or 4 short)

SA  -  3 pacers bowled 11 over( 1 short of full quota),  3 spinners bowled 9 overs(3 short of full quota).

 

Pandya bowled 7 of possible 8 overs versus Aus and SA.

[Sean Bradley]

Nope, can't blame the spinners, its our batters who made their spinners look like warne and murali on the day. We were easily 30 runs short on that pitch, since we chose to milk their spinners for singles. Heck we even let markram get away with a couple of cheap ones. 

 

[Stan AF]

Kuldeep always gets coddled in this forum. Even in the semi he came to wickets only after Axar and Bumrah made it easier on him.

[Number]

Kuldeep's lack of mental fortitude is still his biggest enemy. If things don't go his way, he makes them even worse for himself.

You can see why the last 2 or last ball of the over is the filthiest he bowls if he doesn't get wicket in that over.

This is why T20 is always going to be his weakest format. May be use him sparingly and Bishnoi more in this format.

Edited July 1, 2024 by Number

[littlemaster1982]

6 hours ago, Stan AF said:

Kuldeep always gets coddled in this forum. Even in the semi he came to wickets only after Axar and Bumrah made it easier on him.

 

I used to think you were criticizing him unfairly. But he proved you right this time 

[Ultimate_Game]

8 hours ago, AKane said:

I am not really blaming any one spinner - one can have an off day. All were horrible - so bad that they almost gift wrapped the match to SA.

 

Then people compare this with the Aus match and justify the final performance by what happened vs Aus?

 

I mean look at this

 

 

                    match     overs        rpo         wkts          rpo/wkts(removing Hardik and Jadeja numbers)

pace            Aus          12           9.42            4             8.25/4

spin             Aus            8           7.75             3             6.42/3

 

vs

 

                    match     overs        rpo        wkts          rpo/wkts (removing Hardik and Jadeja numbers)

pace            SA            11           5,27           7              4.75/4

spin             SA              9          11.78           1              11.75/1

 

 

I mean are the two comparable?  I mean a difference of 1 or 2 points in rpo is okay - but more than double??? 

 

 

 

Yup, our spinners had a pretty poor day and in hindsight the pitch was more suited for pacers and going with 3 spinners was 1-2 spinners too many. Also, our bowling changes didn't help that much as feeding 2 back-to-back overs of spin to Klassen was a poor move. Thankfully we won but after the Kuldeep over, giving the very next over to Axar didn't make much sense.

 

It also shows that Dube isn't an all-rounder at all. If you can't even be trusted for one over on a pitch where you're required then you shouldn't be considered an all-rounder. Next time team is selected Dube should be compared to someone like Rinku as Rinku's as much of an "all-rounder" as Dube. That's why I like someone like Venky Iyer. He's a much better bowler than Dube and also a better batsman.

[R!TTER]

6 hours ago, Number said:

Kuldeep's lack of mental fortitude is still his biggest enemy. If things don't go his way, he makes them even worse for himself.

That's true for any team member you can speak of, where was Kohli, RGS, Jadeja in the last 8-10 ICC KO's before this?

[velu]

Rohit decided to finish axar and Kuldeep almost cost the game 

 

Probably hitman might have thought axar cant be hit by klassen like how he bully other spinners 

[Number]

9 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

That's true for any team member you can speak of, where was Kohli, RGS, Jadeja in the last 8-10 ICC KO's before this?

I expect better from Kuldeep. I don't want him to be like them. On good days he is excellent but he needs to be at least economical on bad days.

[Nikhil_cric]

Just now, Number said:

I expect better from Kuldeep. I don't want him to be like them. On good days he is excellent but he needs to be at least economical on bad days.

Tough ask for a wrist spinner. He was elite in this World T20.  Just that we had guys who were even more clutch. 

 

 

[Frustrated]

13 minutes ago, velu said:

Rohit decided to finish axar and Kuldeep almost cost the game 

 

Probably hitman might have thought axar cant be hit by klassen like how he bully other spinners 

SA needed 30 from 30 with 6 wickets in hand.  Only 1 bowler in world cricket can help his side defend the total from that position. And that is none other than Bumrah. And he did that.   But MOTM award went to Kohli.  I feel this is daylight robbery.  Do u also think so? 

Edited July 1, 2024 by Frustrated

[R!TTER]

4 minutes ago, Number said:

I expect better from Kuldeep. I don't want him to be like them. On good days he is excellent but he needs to be at least economical on bad days.

Yes but this was his second big final, he should improve & he has time. These are some numbers from the past -

Primary team India

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2007

Trophy ICC Champions Trophy (ICC KnockOut)  or ICC Men's T20 World Cup  or ICC World Test Championship  or World Cup

Tournament type 5+ team tournaments

Match type tournament finals  or tournament cons. finals  or tournament semi-finals  or tournament quarter-finals

Qualifications maidens earned greater than or equal to 5

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 9 of 9

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
I Sharma	2013-2021	3	4	44.2	12	138	8	3/33	3/33	17.25	3.11	33.2	0	0
UT Yadav	2013-2023	5	6	68.0	9	274	11	4/31	4/31	24.90	4.02	37.0	0	0
R Ashwin	2011-2022	12	13	100.5	13	454	16	3/22	4/45	28.37	4.50	37.8	0	0
Mohammed Shami	2015-2023	7	9	120.1	23	516	18	7/57	7/57	28.66	4.29	40.0	1	0
B Kumar	2013-2022	8	8	51.0	6	253	8	3/43	3/43	31.62	4.96	38.2	0	0
JJ Bumrah	2016-2024	9	10	95.2	16	417	11	2/12	2/12	37.90	4.37	52.0	0	0
Mohammed Siraj	2023-2023	3	4	64.3	6	311	7	4/108	5/188	44.42	4.82	55.2	0	0
SN Thakur	2023-2023	1	2	31.0	5	104	2	2/83	2/104	52.00	3.35	93.0	0	0
RA Jadeja	2013-2024	16	18	147.2	10	664	12	3/58	4/114	55.33	4.50	73.6	0	0

 

 

Look who's at the bottom 

 

Primary team India

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2000

Trophy ICC Champions Trophy (ICC KnockOut)  or ICC Men's T20 World Cup  or ICC World Test Championship  or World Cup

Tournament type 5+ team tournaments

Match type tournament finals  or tournament cons. finals  or tournament semi-finals  or tournament quarter-finals

Qualifications maidens earned greater than or equal to 5

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 10 of 10

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
I Sharma	2013-2021	3	4	44.2	12	138	8	3/33	3/33	17.25	3.11	33.2	0	0
UT Yadav	2013-2023	5	6	68.0	9	274	11	4/31	4/31	24.90	4.02	37.0	0	0
R Ashwin	2011-2022	12	13	100.5	13	454	16	3/22	4/45	28.37	4.50	37.8	0	0
Z Khan	2000-2011	11	11	96.1	8	487	17	3/14	3/14	28.64	5.06	33.9	0	0
Mohammed Shami	2015-2023	7	9	120.1	23	516	18	7/57	7/57	28.66	4.29	40.0	1	0
B Kumar	2013-2022	8	8	51.0	6	253	8	3/43	3/43	31.62	4.96	38.2	0	0
JJ Bumrah	2016-2024	9	10	95.2	16	417	11	2/12	2/12	37.90	4.37	52.0	0	0
Mohammed Siraj	2023-2023	3	4	64.3	6	311	7	4/108	5/188	44.42	4.82	55.2	0	0
SN Thakur	2023-2023	1	2	31.0	5	104	2	2/83	2/104	52.00	3.35	93.0	0	0
RA Jadeja	2013-2024	16	18	147.2	10	664	12	3/58	4/114	55.33	4.50	73.6	0	0

 

 

If he doesn't of course he could be termed as a choker, just like BRat or RGS before this final.

[AKane]

39 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

Thankfully we won but after the Kuldeep over, giving the very next over to Axar didn't make much sense.

That was strange - Hardik left one over in the kitty so he was available to bowl that over.

 

40 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

It also shows that Dube isn't an all-rounder at all. If you can't even be trusted for one over on a pitch where you're required then you shouldn't be considered an all-rounder. Next time team is selected Dube should be compared to someone like Rinku as Rinku's as much of an "all-rounder" as Dube. That's why I like someone like Venky Iyer. He's a much better bowler than Dube and also a better batsman.

You have to bowl Dube somewhat in the less consequential matches like the Bangles match or the Afg match or in NY. See what he has got and have that card and get him ready if needed.

 

But you cannot bowl him cold in the finals.... that would hardly be fair.

[velu]

38 minutes ago, Frustrated said:

SA needed 30 from 30 with 6 wickets in hand.  Only 1 bowler in world cricket can help his side defend the total from that position. And that is none other than Bumrah. And he did that.   But MOTM award went to Kohli.  I feel this is daylight robbery.  Do u also think so? 

 

We almost lost the game because of rat

[vvvslaxman]

I am going to go easy on spinners. Because it offered zero turn. Ball just sat up. There is not a length they missed. Especially Klassen activated alien mode. Short ball, good length ball, full ball all disappeared.  I have seen this IPL when Gambhir was captain. Gambhir moment he realizes there is nothing on the offer spinners would not use even the ace spinner. Ability to read the pitch is important. 

[cowboysfan]

yeah its slightly disconcerting the South African spinners out bowled us .

[Ultimate_Game]

14 minutes ago, velu said:

 

We almost lost the game because of rat

 

50 off 48 balls was a tad too slow. Even a 40 ball 50 would've been much better. IMO he left the charge an over or two too late. We had Pandya in the dugout and we couldn't make use of him at all. I think we left 10-15 runs on the table but all's well that ends well

[Ultimate_Game]

9 minutes ago, cowboysfan said:

yeah its slightly disconcerting the South African spinners out bowled us .

 

That has been a consistent theme for quite a while now. Bowlers like Zampa, Santner, Adil Rashid, Rashid Khan, Hasranga, Akeal Hosein, Maharaj, Shamsi etc. have been consistently outbowling our spinners.

 

IMO it has a lot to do with our batting approach to spinners. We still lack true spin hitters in the middle overs. Dube ain't it. Rian Parag in the middle and Abhishek Sharma at the top of the order are much better.

Edited July 1, 2024 by Ultimate_Game

[Number]

1 hour ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Tough ask for a wrist spinner. He was elite in this World T20.  Just that we had guys who were even more clutch. 

 

 

He was. But you would expect better returns than 45-0 from your ace spinner. I think he is a naturally attacking bowler. Bowling short and away from batsmen's arc isn't his strength and with the speeds he bowls at it becomes even worse.

[cowboysfan]

19 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

That has been a consistent theme for quite a while now. Bowlers like Zampa, Santner, Adil Rashid, Rashid Khan, Hasranga, Akeal Hosein, Maharaj, Shamsi etc. have been consistently outbowling our spinners.

 

IMO it has a lot to do with our batting approach to spinners. We still lack true spin hitters in the middle overs. Dube ain't it. Rian Parag in the middle and Abhishek Sharma at the top of the order are much better.

agree,we still are in the process of getting rid of the old guard,there is no way guys like Abhishek and Parag will allow spinners to dictate terms in the game.