How to make a balance between good players of spin and equally good batsmen against pace and bounce in Indian cricket

[Lord]

1 minute ago, neel roy said:

Difference between Santner and jadeja is santner is slower. These spinners get hit on flat decks but nightmare on spin tracks as the trajectory is very high. Also remember Santner has the arm

ball which comes from wide angle above a batsmans eye line. So when you see the ball coming to you looped up ur natural instict is to push forward but then suddenly the ball spins and takes your outside edge. The only way to tackle this is having both sweeps in play as no matter where the ball pitches you can just sweep and smother the spin which none of indians are experienced at. Pants run out was crucial. He could have scored at a quick rate being a leftie. 

 

Difference is height. Ajaz is slow too but still useless here. 

 

Same Santner was treated like a part timer in SL

[MechEng]

Now you guys will understand the value of Pujara. Poor bloke was a punching bag for slow batting.

[Suhaan]

9 minutes ago, Frustrated said:

As of now, I don't really know (as an Ind fan) what to say.  I m left speechless.  Many ICFers who follow domestic tournaments keenly hv been advocating for young batsman who average 60+ in domestic as replacement for oldies like Rohit and Kohli.  I hv been hearing Sarfaraz's name for almost 3 yrs.  But it is evident that he is not an intl material in the first place.   Sucks against spin.  Sucks against pace.  Good for Nothing.  Doesn't even hv the fitness to last one day on the field.  Same with Patidar.  I think our domestic structure is rotten.  Sorry to say, no amount of quality discussion is gonna help us when the entire system from top to bottom is rotten.  

Our nemesis has been spin,spin has always triggered a chaos,collapse for last 20 years or even more

Remember,last year WC final

It was Maxwell chewtiya spin and Rohit mistimed a shot spectacularly caught by MOM Head

We know what followed later

This is a curse ,from artists of spin to dancing clowns against spin ,this has been our journey

You just have to bring in an arm roller and our batsmen succumb

I don't think BCCI cares anymore

Edited October 26, 2024 by Suhaan

[Suhaan]

4 minutes ago, MechEng said:

Now you guys will understand the value of Pujara. Poor bloke was a punching bag for slow batting.

Arey khel liya jitna khelna tha

Uske jaisa koi dusra ho toh uska bh swagat hai

[Lord]

3 minutes ago, MechEng said:

Now you guys will understand the value of Pujara. Poor bloke was a punching bag for slow batting.

 

Woh kya ukhad leta tuk tuk karke?

[singhvivek141]

2 hours ago, jf1gp_1 said:

I don't think spin is the problem. You think Virat at his peak would have been troubles by santner ? He would have smashed him on this track 8 yrs ago. It's time to move on.

Virat always had these weaknesses against left arm spin and left arm swing. I don't know how to dig those numbers but Virat was more comfortable vs right arm bowlers.
It's just that since hitting 30's and specifically post Covid, his performance is sliding down....longer the format, more are his struggles.
 

[R!TTER]

1 hour ago, Lord said:

Woh kya ukhad leta tuk tuk karke?

Kisi ka ta ukhad leta last game, we needed someone to bat 50-60 overs that match & at least we could've drawn that one!

[Lord]

21 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Kisi ka ta ukhad leta last game, we needed someone to bat 50-60 overs that match & at least we could've drawn that one!

He never did that in swing conditions anyway in his last 4-5 years.

[R!TTER]

Just now, Lord said:

He never did that in swing conditions anyway in his last 4-5 years.

Eng second innings last test 2022(?) where batted well with Pants until he threw it away, then dance idol Iyer's wicket triggered another major collapse!

[Ultimate_Game]

8 hours ago, Suhaan said:

@raki05

@Gollum

@vvvslaxman

@Ultimate_Game

@neel roy

 

Aisi sharamnaak haar bhi dekhni padi 

[Suhaan]

Just now, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Aisi sharamnaak haar bhi dekhni padi 

But for Rohit- it's choti choti baatein hoti rehti hain

Means ,loosing a series at home at the hands of a middling side is truly "digestible"

[Chakdephatte]

4 hours ago, Lord said:

 

Difference is height. Ajaz is slow too but still useless here. 

 

Same Santner was treated like a part timer in SL

 

Sri Lanka have a Bradman in Kamindu. And other players are better players of spin than ours. Nissanka, Kusal (an idiot though), Chandimal. They can be trusted to bat on turners more than any other team. 

Edited October 26, 2024 by Chakdephatte

[Lord]

Just now, Chakdephatte said:

 

Sri Lanka have a Bradman in Kamindu. And other players are better players of spin than ours. Nissanka, Kusal (an idiot though), Chandimal. They can be trusted to bat on turners more than any other team. 

 

yes its not like Santner suddenly became a great bowler. Our chumps made him look far better than he is.

[Suhaan]

Just now, Lord said:

 

yes its not like Santner suddenly became a great bowler. Our chumps made him look far better than he is.

Since 2016 I have seen him always perform well against us

We tend to give too much respect to these kiwis

Where is the adrenaline when it comes to them?

 

[Ultimate_Game]

6 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

But for Rohit- it's choti choti baatein hoti rehti hain

Means ,loosing a series at home at the hands of a middling side is truly "digestible"

 

That shows that even a first ever loss at home to an average NZ side which was swept 3-0 by SL doesn't bother the team. Absolutely no pride or shame. I'm more than sure it's the fans, especially here - not the Kohli/Rohit fans - who actually feel the enormity of this loss.

 

This type of a loss would require the team to be culled. But here this shameless bunch - led by seniors Rohit and "King" Kohli - will lead us to another humiliation in Aus. Absolutely no consequences for this loss. Says it all how seriously BCCI takes cricket, and that tells you everything why WTC losses and a decade of futility at intl level didn't bother them one bit.

[New guy]

3 hours ago, R!TTER said:

Kisi ka ta ukhad leta last game, we needed someone to bat 50-60 overs that match & at least we could've drawn that one!

 

5 hours ago, MechEng said:

Now you guys will understand the value of Pujara. Poor bloke was a punching bag for slow batting.

Pant, Gill all batted long in multiple series. Am sure Sarfraz etc could have done it as well.

[Suhaan]

1 minute ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

That shows that even a first ever loss at home to an average NZ side which was swept 3-0 by SL doesn't bother the team. Absolutely no pride or shame. I'm more than sure it's the fans, especially here - not the Kohli/Rohit fans - who actually feel the enormity of this loss.

 

This type of a loss would require the team to be culled. But here this shameless bunch - led by seniors Rohit and "King" Kohli - will lead us to another humiliation in Aus. Absolutely no consequences for this loss. Says it all how seriously BCCI takes cricket, and that tells you everything why WTC losses and a decade of futility at intl level didn't bother them one bit.

As I have already said ,they are content with a low profile T20 WC win and will milk it for another 10-15 years

Look how shamelessly they didn't play Harshit even in t20s,Odis or tests before(not saying he should have been played here)

What was the reason behind?keeping him uncapped does not benefits Indian cricket

[New guy]

13 minutes ago, Chakdephatte said:

 

Sri Lanka have a Bradman in Kamindu. And other players are better players of spin than ours. Nissanka, Kusal (an idiot though), Chandimal. They can be trusted to bat on turners more than any other team. 

Our youngsters like Jaiswal, Pant. Sarfraz, etc are good players of spin. Its the oldies who are a problem

 

Jaiswal averages 90 against spin. Pant averages 60 at a strike rate of 93, Gill has a respectable 42. Sarfraz will join them soon

 

But Kohli averages 31 against spin in last 5 years. 

 

I am not worried about the new generation, we just need to phase out these pampered super stars

[Ultimate_Game]

1 minute ago, Suhaan said:

As I have already said ,they are content with a low profile T20 WC win and will milk it for another 10-15 years

Look how shamelessly they didn't play Harshit even in t20s,Odis or tests before(not saying he should have been played here)

What was the reason behind?keeping him uncapped does not benefits Indian cricket

 

Keeping him uncapped helps KKR and IPL. At this point Indian team has taken a back-seat to business interests. That's why PR teams call the shots in selection, and team decisions are influenced by no. of capped/uncapped players before entering the auction.

 

Harshit was good enough to be in the squad for Aus but not good enough to be part of a B or C side against SL. It should be clear what the real reasons for not playing him were.

[tapandrun]

Ind's batting has 2 fold problem one in t20 and other in tests. 

 

Although being a batting power house which Ind is considered there are fundamental issues on how batters are coached and trained.

Most coaches and academies just tell how to play drives and looking good while playing those  shots rather than develop overall batting of the batter- their on-side play, off side play, batting against spin and batting against pace. They are not producing complete batters.

 

7-10 years back one could succeed not having all the shots or having 1 side play not that good but not right now.

Ind is stuck in many ways their way handling the spin does not work any more, they can not step down and play because the spinner are no longer bowling flighted loopy balls. now the average speed of spinners have increase and the batters can not use their feet and dab the ball in the gaps and take 1/2 or defend it there, now the batter has to play a shot.

 

The Ind batter lacks any modern shots too hardly any1 plays sweep or reverse sweep consistently and with perfection, need to have those shots these days to put off the bowlers .

 

The overall problem with Ind batters are neither they are good at hitting 4/6 against nor they can play them out and work them for 1/2 and some boundaries.

 

 How to fix both batting against and spin ?? -- Firstly ppl have to understand all 3 formats are 3 different games. Ind have to stop mixing the formats and play player in their best formats, Like Gill has no place in t20s and tests but they look him as 3 format player, he lacks power for t20 and avgs 36 in test how can he be 3 format player, pant should have no place in white ball cricket in t20is his sr is ~125.

 

Ind has to improve the quality of bowling in domestic circuit, fast bowler have to be fast and spinner should be able to properly rip the ball. Having ra/la nothing kind of bowler hamper the progress of the batter --i.e. move away a bit from line & length mind set. make good sporting wkts. 

In Ind the bowler who are tall are not fast enough and who are fast are not tall enough, same thing goes for batter batters who are good against spin are not good enough against pace and who are decent against pace can not play spin. Tall batter like s.iyer/Dube are basher of spin bowling but can not handle any kind on bounce because they were never tested against bounce in domestic/ranji one can pile up run playing 3 shots- cover dive, edge to 3rd man while playing cover drive and flicks of the pads.

Thsts why you see batter with 50+ avg turns up in intnl games and found that they do not even have shots to score runs -Vihari/akash chopra and there are many like them were prime example. 

 

To improve batting overall-

1.  batter has to be able to have good off side and leg side play
2. technique for making better shots should be priority over technique of better looking shot
3. Quality of bowlers has to improve
4. Stop mixing the formats
5. Let the player become star organically and stop branding some1 once in generation or prince without having them to perform against bigger and strogger bowling and teams
6. These days need batter who are good at playing good all around the ground 
7. Ask batters to add modern shots
8. In nca/some facility make some super spinning tracks and some super quick tracks and call high potential batter and bowler there play out a series amongst them.
9. Now that t20 is an olympics sports there should be proper attention to win gld mdls there
10. Let say they identified some1 like s.iver who is good against spin and has weakness against spins should be told clearly that he has obvious issue with short ball unless he fixes it he will not be selected same thing if some1 has obvious weakness they have to rectify it.