Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners

[Need4Speed]

10 hours ago, express bowling said:

This channel ball steep bounce at 140 k+ from Harshit can be really helpful in Australia.

 

He is a very objective bowler when in rhythm and we see a sequence of systematic deliveries like below. 

 

 

 

now imagine this type of bowling in SAF..Aus..and the zip he will get from those tracks..

[Need4Speed]

On 11/11/2024 at 5:23 AM, MK55 said:

We r cursed when it comes to express bowlers. Need to consult some exorcist lol.

 

But from his insta, he does seem to have resumed training. All depends on the timing.

 

ek toh milte nhi hamei jaldi se..aur jo milete hain..wo injured hote rehte hain..

[vishalvirsingh]

just read 10 mm of grass on perth pitch.

Prasidh, akash n boom are certain to play, not sure about Siraj. prasidh on a bouncy track can be Deadly,boom unplayable.

[Need4Speed]

4 hours ago, vishalvirsingh said:

just read 10 mm of grass on perth pitch.

Prasidh, akash n boom are certain to play, not sure about Siraj. prasidh on a bouncy track can be Deadly,boom unplayable.

like we lost on our spinning tracks against NZ..Aus may face the same..Indian bowlers outbowling them..

[tapandrun]

On 11/11/2024 at 1:41 PM, Need4Speed said:

Seeing Gerald Coetzee,Lockie F,Nahid Rana these last few matches..they are bowling accurately 140ks and getting bounce..

 

so express pace is not needed,,if you bowl accurately with intent and bounce..just good pace works..I believe Harshit can do the same if he is groomed..plus batting potential..

 

wtf TM\BCCI is doing..and not grooming him..he is still warming the benches..

 

All these are 140-150 kmph bowlers which is v.good , they are not like some1 who barely bowls few 142 kmph balls in a white-ball match.

These are some1 who can crank it-up, they are not proper 150 kmph  bowlers but are v.close to what it can get. Who does Ind have a who bowls in same kind of speed range ??

 

In kolhi-sastri era Ind did not have any express bowler but all the bowler were in 140-145+kmph range, if they had 1/2 express bowler it would have change the entire complexion of bowling line up, you wound not need to bank on bowling longer spells, give a 4-5 over bust to express pacer see if the batter soften-ups and gives their wkt to this bowler or the bowler at other end 

 

 

[tapandrun]

On 11/11/2024 at 1:41 PM, Need4Speed said:

Seeing Gerald Coetzee,Lockie F,Nahid Rana these last few matches..they are bowling accurately 140ks and getting bounce..

 

so express pace is not needed,,if you bowl accurately with intent and bounce..just good pace works..I believe Harshit can do the same if he is groomed..plus batting potential..

 

wtf TM\BCCI is doing..and not grooming him..he is still warming the benches..

 

All these are 140-150 kmph bowlers which is v.good pace , they are not like some1 who barely bowls few 142 kmph balls in a white-ball match.

These are some1 who can crank it-up, they are not proper 150 kmph  bowlers but are v.close to what it can get. Who does Ind have a who bowls in same kind of speed range ??

 

In kolhi-sastri era Ind did not have any express bowler but all the bowler were in 140-145+kmph range, if they had 1/2 express bowler it would have change the entire complexion of bowling line up, you wound not need to bank on bowling longer spells, give a 4-5 over bust to express pacer see if the batter soften-ups and gives their wkt to this bowler or the bowler at other end 

 

Similar to allrounder express bowlers are force-multiplier, teams can not build their bowling line-up around an express bowler but if you can an express bowler in your bowling lineup it add alot of potency to the bowling 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2024 by tapandrun

[Vk1]

Somehow most of these fast rapid 145+ bowlers have one thing in common - ability to hit sixes. Those strong shoulders and fast twitched muscles probably help in generating power. Prasidh, Siraj are rare species with very little batting ability.

[ind_hyd1]

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/aus-vs-ind-1st-test-optus-stadium-pitch-in-perth-expected-to-resemble-waca-ground-1459292

[Adamant]

On 11/12/2024 at 2:24 PM, rkt.india said:

Lee's test average is 30.8, not 32 and that's because of high economy rate of 3.46. He would go for runs but he was an enforcer, an attacking bowler. His SR of 53.4 and 4+ wickets per test show that he was a wicket taker. He played his role and attacking bowlers do tend to go for runs. Any bowler with 4 wickets per test is as good as anything. Among Indian pacers, only bumrah has 4 wickets per test. Strike rate of Curtly Ambrose is 54, Walsh 57, Gillespie 54.9. So Lee is in a very good league as a test bowler. 

 

Please dont try to change the way stats are read, average is the most important factor in a bowlers stat, imagine how many times Lee would have release all the pressure build by Mcgrath, Warne, Gillespie and then later on with Stuart Clark and Johnson.

Just because he is an enforcer doesnt mean he get to average 31 with 3.7 economy. Mitchell Johnson, Akhtar, Jeff Thompson were actual enforcers, just because you worship 150 kph doesn't mean the bowler will get evaluated in a different manner.

 

 

[Adamant]

23 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Bhai itna samajh me nahi aaega usko.

They are just stat readers, ignoring the other variables that needs to be considered.

 

On 11/12/2024 at 2:22 PM, Suhaan said:

He was good with McGrath Warne,Gillespie/kasprovics even in tests,as an enforcer he was good

Enforcers aren't meant for low averages in red ball especially,they will go for runs eventually while trying to unsettle batsmen

After their retirement,he couldn't lead the attack,which was anyway wasn't his role

@singhvivek141 Akhtar, Johnson, Thomson are real quality enforcers not LEE who would let the opposition demolish him more often than not, he is not a spinner so he still belongs in the fast bowlers category, there is no new category for a "ENFORCER" lol.

Who was the enforcer when Bumrah, Shami, Ishant were demolishing batting lineups in 2018 ? This enforcer thing is the biggest bakwass I have read on this forum, as a bowler your responsibility is to take wkts at low average.

When I mention Philander, Bhuvi etc then you guys are the first one to attack and say that they are conditions dependent bowlers, what about Mark Wood and Lee why are they being given so much respect? 

Lee averages 34 away from home and that is while hiding behind Mcgrath, Warne, Gillespie, I rate both Ishant and Z khan over him and that's based on facts. When Ishant Sharma got Bumrah, Shami to work with he operated on an ATG level. 

I would even argue that Mark Wood( who I absolutely dislike) is greater than this guy coz atleast he worked without an ATG support.

[Serpico]

31 is not bad average in itself, but the fact that Lee averages 45 in England is a bad look for an Aussie pacer. He was also pretty bad in Asia so its just Southern hemisphere bullying 

[singhvivek141]

46 minutes ago, Adamant said:

 

@singhvivek141 Akhtar, Johnson, Thomson are real quality enforcers not LEE who would let the opposition demolish him more often than not, he is not a spinner so he still belongs in the fast bowlers category, there is no new category for a "ENFORCER" lol.

Who was the enforcer when Bumrah, Shami, Ishant were demolishing batting lineups in 2018 ? This enforcer thing is the biggest bakwass I have read on this forum, as a bowler your responsibility is to take wkts at low average.

When I mention Philander, Bhuvi etc then you guys are the first one to attack and say that they are conditions dependent bowlers, what about Mark Wood and Lee why are they being given so much respect? 

Lee averages 34 away from home and that is while hiding behind Mcgrath, Warne, Gillespie, I rate both Ishant and Z khan over him and that's based on facts. When Ishant Sharma got Bumrah, Shami to work with he operated on an ATG level. 

I would even argue that Mark Wood( who I absolutely dislike) is greater than this guy coz atleast he worked without an ATG support.

@Adamant,
Enforcer isnt a category, it's an ability of a bowler to switch his lengths to a level which can be disconcerting/hurting for a batter. He don't need to be a speed demon for it.

Philander was very good bowler in every sense, Bhuvi was on track till he got injured in 2014 when MSD bowled him to ground, thereafter he just a pale shadow of himself who was massacred for 100+ runs....but neither were Enforcer. While Neil Wagner who for most of his career bowled at similar pace was an Enforcer. The way he made Steve Smith dance during his prime despite bowling at 130k was a special ability. 

Bumrah was the enforcer in 2018, infact Bumrah is so skillful that he can play multiple roles. Umesh too has played that role at times when he wakes up on the right side of the bed, the spell vs Bangladesh test series in 2016?, the spell vs Australia where he broke the bat of Maxwell, that spell vs SA where he demonstrated cobra like Reverse swing are few examples of it.

Coming back to Lee, no doubt he was inconsistent in Tests, but he was also an exceptional ODI bowler and had the unique ability to run through the sides. His problem was he didn't had ability to lead the attack.
You're right that Thomson, Garner, Holding etc were the top class Enforcers.

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, Adamant said:

 

@singhvivek141 Akhtar, Johnson, Thomson are real quality enforcers not LEE who would let the opposition demolish him more often than not, he is not a spinner so he still belongs in the fast bowlers category, there is no new category for a "ENFORCER" lol.

Who was the enforcer when Bumrah, Shami, Ishant were demolishing batting lineups in 2018 ? This enforcer thing is the biggest bakwass I have read on this forum, as a bowler your responsibility is to take wkts at low average.

When I mention Philander, Bhuvi etc then you guys are the first one to attack and say that they are conditions dependent bowlers, what about Mark Wood and Lee why are they being given so much respect? 

Lee averages 34 away from home and that is while hiding behind Mcgrath, Warne, Gillespie, I rate both Ishant and Z khan over him and that's based on facts. When Ishant Sharma got Bumrah, Shami to work with he operated on an ATG level. 

I would even argue that Mark Wood( who I absolutely dislike) is greater than this guy coz atleast he worked without an ATG support.

Lee averages 4 wickets per test with an SR of 53 which good enough. Lee did leak runs but his striking ability was as good as some greats of the game.

Edited November 13, 2024 by rkt.india

[rkt.india]

8 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

@Adamant,
Enforcer isnt a category, it's an ability of a bowler to switch his lengths to a level which can be disconcerting/hurting for a batter. He don't need to be a speed demon for it.

Philander was very good bowler in every sense, Bhuvi was on track till he got injured in 2014 when MSD bowled him to ground, thereafter he just a pale shadow of himself who was massacred for 100+ runs....but neither were Enforcer. While Neil Wagner who for most of his career bowled at similar pace was an Enforcer. The way he made Steve Smith dance during his prime despite bowling at 130k was a special ability. 

Bumrah was the enforcer in 2018, infact Bumrah is so skillful that he can play multiple roles. Umesh too has played that role at times when he wakes up on the right side of the bed, the spell vs Bangladesh test series in 2016?, the spell vs Australia where he broke the bat of Maxwell, that spell vs SA where he demonstrated cobra like Reverse swing are few examples of it.

Coming back to Lee, no doubt he was inconsistent in Tests, but he was also an exceptional ODI bowler and had the unique ability to run through the sides. His problem was he didn't had ability to lead the attack.
You're right that Thomson, Garner, Holding etc were the top class Enforcers.

Even Thomson averaged 30 that too in low ER era of 70s. But had good SR.

[Lone Wolf]

Bro would cook under Bharat Arun  hopefully it happens 

Arun is the only guy in our system who knows how to handle Indian quicks

 

[Suhaan]

9 hours ago, Adamant said:

 

@singhvivek141 Akhtar, Johnson, Thomson are real quality enforcers not LEE who would let the opposition demolish him more often than not, he is not a spinner so he still belongs in the fast bowlers category, there is no new category for a "ENFORCER" lol.

Who was the enforcer when Bumrah, Shami, Ishant were demolishing batting lineups in 2018 ? This enforcer thing is the biggest bakwass I have read on this forum, as a bowler your responsibility is to take wkts at low average.

When I mention Philander, Bhuvi etc then you guys are the first one to attack and say that they are conditions dependent bowlers, what about Mark Wood and Lee why are they being given so much respect? 

Lee averages 34 away from home and that is while hiding behind Mcgrath, Warne, Gillespie, I rate both Ishant and Z khan over him and that's based on facts. When Ishant Sharma got Bumrah, Shami to work with he operated on an ATG level. 

I would even argue that Mark Wood( who I absolutely dislike) is greater than this guy coz atleast he worked without an ATG support.

Johnson wasn't an enforcer,you have confused yourself

Can you tell me?who was supposed to lead Aussie attack post 2007/08?

He was supposed to lead the attack and was lead pacer there,infact Ashws 2013,India to Ausm2014 he was leading the attack

Despite being lead bowler he was just averaging in high 20s and striking at 50+

Lee did quite well being an enforcer by almost matching Johnson

 

[Adamant]

7 hours ago, Suhaan said:

Johnson wasn't an enforcer,you have confused yourself
Can you tell me?who was supposed to lead Aussie attack post 2007/08?

 

Johnson wasn't supposed to carry the lineup, they were dependent on Stuart Clarke and Peter Siddle, Johnson's role was always to unsettle the batsman by bowling 145-150kph, he wasn't supposed to be the leader of the attack and averaged 31 in his first 4 years.

7 hours ago, Suhaan said:

 

He was supposed to lead the attack and was lead pacer there,infact Ashws 2013,India to Ausm2014 he was leading the attack

Despite being lead bowler he was just averaging in high 20s and striking at 50+

Lee did quite well being an enforcer by almost matching Johnson

 

He was in red hot form in 2013, 2014 but the thing is even Australians will agree that Ryan Harris was the one who was supposed to be the lead Bowler, Johnson had an insane peak and took the highlight, Johnson has always been more of an enforcer, Enforcers bowl at high speeds and sometimes target the body of batsman, Johnson was definitely doing that for Australia. 
Harris was the leader, Siddle was the stock bowler.

[Adamant]

16 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Even Thomson averaged 30 that too in low ER era of 70s. But had good SR.

I think he averaged 27.xx, that's a really good average for an Enforcer.

[Suhaan]

45 minutes ago, Adamant said:

 

Johnson wasn't supposed to carry the lineup, they were dependent on Stuart Clarke and Peter Siddle, Johnson's role was always to unsettle the batsman by bowling 145-150kph, he wasn't supposed to be the leader of the attack and averaged 31 in his first 4 years.

He was in red hot form in 2013, 2014 but the thing is even Australians will agree that Ryan Harris was the one who was supposed to be the lead Bowler, Johnson had an insane peak and took the highlight, Johnson has always been more of an enforcer, Enforcers bowl at high speeds and sometimes target the body of batsman, Johnson was definitely doing that for Australia. 
Harris was the leader, Siddle was the stock bowler.

Enforcers doesn't mean bowling at high 140s,it means bowling at unsettling lines

Broad,Wagner were enforcers too

Johnson after all the Aussie great retired was touted to be their strike bowler,but he didn't have the skill to lead the attack

Was way more erratic and lacked/lost that left armer shape in

He was then used in short bursts only later in his career,where he too he was supposedly leading the attack

[rkt.india]

2 hours ago, Adamant said:

I think he averaged 27.xx, that's a really good average for an Enforcer.

For me the most important thing is wickets per match. Four wickets per test makes one a very good test bowler. It shows the bowler consistently takes wickets. Bhuvi kumar averages 26 but in no universe he is better than Brett Lee, takes  only 3 wickets per test despite playing most of his tests on favorable pitches whether in India or overseas.

Edited November 14, 2024 by rkt.india