Where does Kapil Dev rank among Indian-ATG?

[fineleg]

I feel tempted to say Kapil Dev is the #1 among Indian-ATG cricketers. [will have to ignore his mistake of last few years of not retiring though]

Fast-medium/med-fast bowler who can take wickets in an attack that was devoid of supporting pacers for a long time.

Attacking batsman (he doesnt get as much credit for batting)

Excellent fielder, and a decenty good captain.

The main thing is he was good-to-great in the scale of All Rounders and truly a WORLD CLASS allrounder (not just within India).

We have had many great batsmen after Gavaskar, we have had many good bowlers too. But a world class all-rounder? No one else?

[express bowling]

I started watching cricket from 1984 when I was a small kid. The biggest feature of Indian cricket that I remember during that time was that we had an endless stream of slow-medium pacers. Till the late 70s nobody believed that India could produce even a fast-medium pacer.

In that environment, Kapil believed that he could be a world class pace bowler. There was no encouragement, no infrastructure and no one to look up to around him.

Yet Kapil succeeded. He bowled at a lively fast-medium pace, was 6'1" tall, had a wonderful outswing, got good seam movement, had a very good bouncer, was very accurate and ....during the first half of his career...ended up getting 300 wickets from around 75 tests.

He ended up being one of the best all rounders of his generation but his biggest achievement, to me, was that he dared to dream to be a world class pacer when we did not produce one in the last 30 years before he came.

Sent from my HTC Desire C using Tapatalk

[Gollum]

You are absolutely spot on. He is the greatest Indian cricketer in both formats of the game and the first name in our all time XI.

1. Bowling- India's greatest ever pacer in tests as well as ODIs. in tests he has 434 wickets @29.6(it should be even better, 380-400 wickets @26 odd something but inflated by his selfish quest to Hadlee's world record). The most astonishing thing about that is most of them were on dry unresponsive Indian wickets(they were really flat those days with a very high draw percentage, remember England India '82 or Pak-India '86, just 2 examples, many more like these two) while Hadlee/Botham had conducive conditions and Imran had bottle caps and Shakoor Rana. He also had very little support from the other end and batsmen used to try and play him out without taking undue risk. Add to that his legendary quests in West Indies where he single handedly broke the spine of the greatest team of all time many times. He has many MOMs and even a MOS courtesy his bowling performances in WI against that team, in India even more( I believe he averages 41 with the bat and 24 with the ball against them overall) !!! Almost setup a series win in Aus in '85 (denied by patriotic Aussie umpires) and helped us win in England 2-0 against a very good team. Also don't forget his legendary pwnage of a great Pakistani team in 79-80, a series we were never expected to win. I can go in and on about his test exploits with the ball but let me stop here. If I were to list down 10 greatest bowling performances by Indian bowlers in tests Kapil paaji would alone have at least 4 or 5, that's how great he was. In ODIs he was even better.  253 wickets @27.5 and ER of 3.7 again mindblowing. In tests he may be inferior to Imran and Hadlee but in LOIs he was the best of the quartet. He was a very tight bowler, no extras, no easy runs and always got us early breakthroughs. A very good outswing, probably the best late outswing of all time. The way he used to square up even great batsmen was awesome to watch.

2. Batting- Very under rated. In test cricket he has a few ATG knocks like the 100 in the tied Madras test, 100 at above run a ball in Port of Spain '83, 141 in RSA '92 etc. Serious underachiever with the bat but clearly better than Imran(who was a stat booster, having very few knocks of significance) and Hadlee and almost at par with Botham(slightly inferior). He was good enough to be the number 6 in a very strong batting lineup which had the likes of Gavaskar,Srikhanth, Amarnath, Vengsarkar, Azhar, etc. Our batting lineup was seriously scary then, in fact until the fab 5 came along it was probably our greatest batting lineup. The best thing about his batting was his audacity(remember the 4 consecutive 6's of Hemmings to avoid follow on) only eclipsed by Viru in recent times. He was a force of nature taking apart the best of bowling attacks, the proof being his insane SR. In ODIs his average may have been low but in that era his average was ok. his SR was 95, highest in the world, even better than King Viv. My estimate is that if he were playing the mickey mouse ODI cricket today he would be averaging 30 odd at SR 160 odd easily. He was like ABDV on steriods but very inconsistent. Also has the greatest ODI knock by an Indian(175), the one BBC didn't cover thanks to that strike. If not for that innings we wouldn't have qualified for the semis in '83.

3. Fielding- IMHO the 2nd best all round fielder after Azhar in the history of Indian cricket and the best outfielder ever from India. Seriously good catcher as well, remember the one to dismiss the King in the '83 finals?

4. Fitness- Fittest cricketer ever from Asia at least. Never once was unfit. Could have had the record for most consecutive test matches but for the selfish Gavaskar and the Bombay lobby. His longevity is freakish, considering he also bowled so much throughout his career.

5. Captaincy- Not the greatest tactician but a good motivator and led by example. Had a tough job because of the Mumbai lobby always ready to undermine him. Gavaskar calling him a ******* in public, Sandeep Patil hitting him with a bat, insults thrown at him all the time taking advantage of his naivety, being dropped to stop him from achieving the record for most consecutive test matches etc are shining examples of the odds stacked against him. He never got a long run as captain, which was unfair. History will remember him as the youngest WC winning captain(24 years old) and that is a stupendous feat.

6. He was a big match player with some serious numbers in the '83 WC and '85 B&H World Championship.  Was also the number 1 ICC ODI all rounder for 11 consecutive years, a feat no cricketer has achieved till date in any of the disciplines.

Overall I would say he lords over SunnyG, SRT, RD, Kumble, Viru... all of them.

In fact only SRT comes close to him but as a total cricketer he is no match for paaji. Taking tests+ODIS

Batting   SRT 9/10, Paaji 6/10

Bowling SRT 3/10, Paaji 8/10

Fielding SRT 7/10, Paaji 9.5/10

Captaincy SRT 2/10, Paaji 7/10

Hold your breath as to what I am about to say, but the only cricketer capable of surpassing Kapil in the near future is Ashwin. I feel Ashwin has all the ingredients to become India's greatest test cricketer, 4 MOS in 27 tests But the odds are stacked against him and even if he achieves  80% of what Paaji achieved Indian cricket will go places with guys like Kohli, Rahane, Pujara, Vijay, Shami, Ishant, Mishra to support him.

 

 

Edited October 22, 2015 by Gollum

[kruiser]

I agreed with everything except holding my breath part. Ashwin will fizzle out soon.. has already shown his fickleness with the bat and has had one serious dip in bowling form. I hope i am proven wrong, but I am not very optimistic of Ashwin even reaching Harbhajan level of success.

[Gollum]

I agreed with everything except holding my breath part. Ashwin will fizzle out soon.. has already shown his fickleness with the bat and has had one serious dip in bowling form. I hope i am proven wrong, but I am not very optimistic of Ashwin even reaching Harbhajan level of success.

I agree he doesn't take batting seriously these days. The talent is there but he plays one shot too many and finds ways to throw his wicket. I haven't seen any Indian batsman cover the swing/seam as beautifully as Ashwin. He hardly leaves any ball but is able to meet almost all balls no matter how big the deviation. If he learns to leave(he should take a leaf out of Vijay's book) and cuts that stupid pull shot he will do fine. When in flow he is like VVS, a tremendous shot maker.

Regarding his bowling form since the Australia tour he has reinvented himself. He is bowling at a level very few are capable of, his pwnage of Sanga and ABDV can't be a coincidence, 2 outstanding players of spin bowling probably the best in the last 10 years. I think he can become a Kumble like bowler for us and a 35 avg batsman if he puts his mind to it. Come on man, 4 MOS in 27 tests !!!! Viru had 5 in 100 tests and Sachin had 5 in 200!!!!!! 1 MOS per 7 tests.....no cricketer in the history of our game comes close. He is also rattling out other records, 2nd fastest to 100 wickets, on course to 3rd fastest to 150 etc etc. One name he can be compared to at this stage of his career after 27 tests.....Sir Ian Botham.

 

[King]

Among the top 5 of ATG in Indian cricket. There is no way you can go around comparing Kapil Dev with an Anil Kumble or a Sachin Tendulkar. They played in different eras and will be like comparing apples with oranges considering their facet of cricket was different. 

I suppose Kapil Dev is the only fast bowling all rounder of some sort that India has ever produced. He'd be one of the top 5 all rounders in the world. Wasn't a bad captain either, lead from the front fair number of times. 

[sensible-indian]

You are absolutely spot on. He is the greatest Indian cricketer in both formats of the game and the first name in our all time XI.

1. Bowling- India's greatest ever pacer in tests as well as ODIs. in tests he has 434 wickets @29.6(it should be even better, 380-400 wickets @26 odd something but inflated by his selfish quest to Hadlee's world record). The most astonishing thing about that is most of them were on dry unresponsive Indian wickets(they were really flat those days with a very high draw percentage, remember England India '82 or Pak-India '86, just 2 examples, many more like these two) while Hadlee/Botham had conducive conditions and Imran had bottle caps and Shakoor Rana. He also had very little support from the other end and batsmen used to try and play him out without taking undue risk. Add to that his legendary quests in West Indies where he single handedly broke the spine of the greatest team of all time many times. He has many MOMs and even a MOS courtesy his bowling performances in WI against that team, in India even more( I believe he averages 41 with the bat and 24 with the ball against them overall) !!! Almost setup a series win in Aus in '85 (denied by patriotic Aussie umpires) and helped us win in England 2-0 against a very good team. Also don't forget his legendary pwnage of a great Pakistani team in 79-80, a series we were never expected to win. I can go in and on about his test exploits with the ball but let me stop here. If I were to list down 10 greatest bowling performances by Indian bowlers in tests Kapil paaji would alone have at least 4 or 5, that's how great he was. In ODIs he was even better.  253 wickets @27.5 and ER of 3.7 again mindblowing. In tests he may be inferior to Imran and Hadlee but in LOIs he was the best of the quartet. He was a very tight bowler, no extras, no easy runs and always got us early breakthroughs. A very good outswing, probably the best late outswing of all time. The way he used to square up even great batsmen was awesome to watch.

2. Batting- Very under rated. In test cricket he has a few ATG knocks like the 100 in the tied Madras test, 100 at above run a ball in Port of Spain '83, 141 in RSA '92 etc. Serious underachiever with the bat but clearly better than Imran(who was a stat booster, having very few knocks of significance) and Hadlee and almost at par with Botham(slightly inferior). He was good enough to be the number 6 in a very strong batting lineup which had the likes of Gavaskar,Srikhanth, Amarnath, Vengsarkar, Azhar, etc. Our batting lineup was seriously scary then, in fact until the fab 5 came along it was probably our greatest batting lineup. The best thing about his batting was his audacity(remember the 4 consecutive 6's of Hemmings to avoid follow on) only eclipsed by Viru in recent times. He was a force of nature taking apart the best of bowling attacks, the proof being his insane SR. In ODIs his average may have been low but in that era his average was ok. his SR was 95, highest in the world, even better than King Viv. My estimate is that if he were playing the mickey mouse ODI cricket today he would be averaging 30 odd at SR 160 odd easily. He was like ABDV on steriods but very inconsistent. Also has the greatest ODI knock by an Indian(175), the one BBC didn't cover thanks to that strike. If not for that innings we wouldn't have qualified for the semis in '83.

3. Fielding- IMHO the 2nd best all round fielder after Azhar in the history of Indian cricket and the best outfielder ever from India. Seriously good catcher as well, remember the one to dismiss the King in the '83 finals?

4. Fitness- Fittest cricketer ever from Asia at least. Never once was unfit. Could have had the record for most consecutive test matches but for the selfish Gavaskar and the Bombay lobby. His longevity is freakish, considering he also bowled so much throughout his career.

5. Captaincy- Not the greatest tactician but a good motivator and led by example. Had a tough job because of the Mumbai lobby always ready to undermine him. Gavaskar calling him a ******* in public, Sandeep Patil hitting him with a bat, insults thrown at him all the time taking advantage of his naivety, being dropped to stop him from achieving the record for most consecutive test matches etc are shining examples of the odds stacked against him. He never got a long run as captain, which was unfair. History will remember him as the youngest WC winning captain(24 years old) and that is a stupendous feat.

6. He was a big match player with some serious numbers in the '83 WC and '85 B&H World Championship.  Was also the number 1 ICC ODI all rounder for 11 consecutive years, a feat no cricketer has achieved till date in any of the disciplines.

Overall I would say he lords over SunnyG, SRT, RD, Kumble, Viru... all of them.

In fact only SRT comes close to him but as a total cricketer he is no match for paaji. Taking tests+ODIS

Batting   SRT 9/10, Paaji 6/10

Bowling SRT 3/10, Paaji 8/10

Fielding SRT 7/10, Paaji 9.5/10

Captaincy SRT 2/10, Paaji 7/10

Hold your breath as to what I am about to say, but the only cricketer capable of surpassing Kapil in the near future is Ashwin. I feel Ashwin has all the ingredients to become India's greatest test cricketer, 4 MOS in 27 tests But the odds are stacked against him and even if he achieves  80% of what Paaji achieved Indian cricket will go places with guys like Kohli, Rahane, Pujara, Vijay, Shami, Ishant, Mishra to support him.

 

 

Bro...we can't directly compare AR with batsmen or bowlers like that. If we do, the greatest players would be Sobers, Imran, Hadlee, Botham, Kapil and only then any ATG bat including Sachin or Viv or Lara or Ponting would come in.

Another way to look at it is this: Take IPL. Dwayne Bravo is soo much utility its insane. Can we make an argument he is better in IPL than say ABD? That wouldn't present the right picture..would it?

Its tough to compare AR with pure batsmen/bowlers but if we do...we have to look at a lot more factors.

Kapil - ATG allrounder in Tests, not ATG with bat, not ATG with ball

Kapil - ATG allrounder in ODIs, not ATG with bat, not ATG with ball

Sachin - GOAT in Tests with bat (one of the GOATs I mean)

Sachin - GOAT in ODIs with ball (one of the GOATs I mean)

Stature wise....SRT is very far ahead of Kapil though Kapil is way more than what his stats suggest.

Even Sobers/Imran/Kallis vs SRT - Its hard to do meaningful comparisons cos the comparison field is sooo wide.

As for Ashwin....I do feel his bowling has been amazing in recent times. Just wanna see if its purple patch or he is genuinely good. This SA series would tell us a lot about Ashwin but he is on track to be 2nd best AR India ever had (in tests). Maybe he can even get to No 1 AR (in tests) someday if he keeps bowling like this.

Here's a stat:

Ashwin averages sub 20 in every series post WC 2015.

Bangladesh Test, Bangladesh ODI, SL Test, SA T20 and looked good even in the 4 overs he bowled against SA in 1st ODI.

So let's see. Will be interesting to watch his career growth.

Edited October 23, 2015 by sensible-indian

[maniac]

People need to realize at one point of time kapil feb was the highest wicket taker in both Odis and tests as well. Held the highest score ever made in odi cricket.

and still people's opinion of him seems to kind of based on pakis opinion of him. Infact Imran khan was highly competitive with him and even said don't give your wickets to kapil where as Kapil dev never gave a fek.

Yeah kapil had his flaws as he never did much for indian cricket outside his personal contribution.

infact when there was a poll for Indian cricketer of the decade 1900-2000 kapil had overcome Sunil gavaskar and sachin to win that honor.

 

 

[paragkn]

15-year-old Kid when he complained about the short rations at lunch at a training camp at Brabourne Stadium in 1974 was told by the autthorities "THERE ARE NO FAST BOWLERS IN INDIA TO GET FULL RATION IN LUNCH".
The judgment was hurtful, but not unfounded. In the last Test India had played at home, for example, the new ball had been taken by Eknath Solkar (two overs) and Sunil Gavaskar (one over), then surrendered to the slow-bowling wiles of Bedi, Chandra and Prasanna.
That 15 Year old kid was not accepted by Desh Prem Azad on first attempt because he always wanted to hit ball out of boundary, but his father somehow convinced the great coach.
Few would have lived up to the demands, but that did it, day in and day out. His school finished at 1.30 PM; he cycled back home by 1.50; he had his lunch before he left at 2.15; he reached the ground at 2.40; and practised till light faded, which was quite late in Chandigarh summers — when day temperatures often soared above 40°.
The effort paid off.
And the kid become India's Best All rounder ever , Indian Cricketer of century , Indian biggest ever match winner and Cricket Star KAPIL DEV NIKHUNJ.

Kapil Paaji is doubtlessly the Biggest Cricketer ever produced by India or even we can say Asia.  Just like Sehwag, his greatness cannot be measured with stats. His Impact and his motivation on his team mates and fear among opposition was matchless.

One story from Gavaskar summed up Kapil's influence. "At Tunbridge wells, we were down in the dumps at 17 for 5. I don't think people really understand what an innings Kapil played then. Your top order was not able to lay bat on ball, but here came a man who started hitting the same ball to all corners of the ground. Because of 60-over games, there used to be a lunch and a tea break - the lunch before the end of the first innings.

"When Kapil came for lunch, there was nobody in the dressing room, just a glass of orange juice on his seat. None of us was in the lunch room either; we were hiding our faces. Here was a man who had shown how we should have batted. It was from there the Indian team took off, and started to once again believe in themselves. He is the greatest cricketer India has ever produced.

First Asian Captain to win WC, World record holder as a Batsman with Highest strike rate for decade and Ex-Record holder of Most ODI and Test wickets, He surely counts as Greatest Indian ATG

Some less known facts about Kapil Paaji :

Every One remembers Kapil Dev's 175* vs Zim in 1983. Very few people know its was the first ODI century scored by an Indian. And that too at a S/R of 140+ in in 80's. Superhuman achievement indeed.

Everyone is aware of the fact that Kapil went past Richard Hadlee’s world record tally of 431 Test wickets to become the leading wicket-taker at Green Park, 1993-94. A less-remembered fact is that he became the leading wicket-taker in both Tests and ODIs when he reached the milestone. He is the only bowler between Dennis Lillee and Muttiah Muralitharan to achieve this.

Very Rare people knows that KAPIL DEV has not missed even a single match because of an injury in 16 years of his career.

He also played almost 184 innings and never got run out.He is one of the most fit players the World has/had.

For Me , Kapil Paaji comes at No.1 in India's ATG List , followed by Sunil Gavaskar at No.2 and Sachin Tendulkar at No.3

Edited October 24, 2015 by paragkn

[zen]

This is a hard question, as players such as Kapil, Viru, etc. are hard to judge based on numbers alone. In terms of raw talent, Kapil is among the best. It is hard to find a weakness either in his batting, bowling or fielding. However, he could not translate his raw talent to achieve his full potential.  

The man has done it all - performed with the ball (his record in Aus in exceptional - 5 for that won Ind a test, 9/83 vs. WI, ....), performed with the bat (amazing 100s esp. the one in SA where every other Ind batsmen struggled, even his 30s-40s were cool, ODIs - 175, B&H, etc. ), and performed in the field (took some great catches), while delivering as the captain (WC'83) 

I would not rank Ind's ATGs, but will simply say that Kapil is in the top bracket. His legacy would have even been stronger if he had inspired a few more folks to take up fast bowling and probably retired after the '92 WC (after he had a great test series in Aus) 

[rtmohanlal]

I  would go up 1 level further and say this - ' the best all rounder of the  FAB 4 of the 80s'

reasons - stats don't tell the whole story.stats are meaning less with  out context.For instance who was the better between Laxman & Mahela ? Mahela scored some 3000 runs more , had +3 bat avg: and had lot more 100s. yet for several of us Laxman would be the better batsman.   and ...we all know the reasons for that.

 

Like wise both in batting and bowling KAPIL need to be judged  based on the context he played.

 

Batting - lonegevity affected his avg:  just like any top class batsman.in the same no: of tests as Imran(supposed to be the best all rounder of the FAB4) played  Kapil's runs/inns value was almost similar to  that of Imran.his bat avg: at that time too was some 32.5 or so. And Khan's avg: was boosted a lot by lot of not outs.

 then Kapil had 3 distinct facets in his batting which shows he was clearly superior.

 1. his huge str:rate. more than 80 or so 

2. performance in WI  with the bat

3. his big inns were all about top level quality on the avg:. i mean quality of bowlers, match situation,support he got in partnerships, huge str: rate etc are taken into account .

 

In bowling  too Kapil 's figures were affected by longevity, heavy workload and lack of adequate support

...and  he was easily the best one day all rounder of the FAB4.

  A BRILLIANT fielder and a very good captain who lead from the front to achieve some great results with the moderate team

he had  

 

So...the best of the FAB 4 for me 

 

 

 

 

[maniac]

Bro...we can't directly compare AR with batsmen or bowlers like that. If we do, the greatest players would be Sobers, Imran, Hadlee, Botham, Kapil and only then any ATG bat including Sachin or Viv or Lara or Ponting would come in.

Another way to look at it is this: Take IPL. Dwayne Bravo is soo much utility its insane. Can we make an argument he is better in IPL than say ABD? That wouldn't present the right picture..would it?

Its tough to compare AR with pure batsmen/bowlers but if we do...we have to look at a lot more factors.

Kapil - ATG allrounder in Tests, not ATG with bat, not ATG with ball

Kapil - ATG allrounder in ODIs, not ATG with bat, not ATG with ball

Sachin - GOAT in Tests with bat (one of the GOATs I mean)

Sachin - GOAT in ODIs with ball (one of the GOATs I mean)

Stature wise....SRT is very far ahead of Kapil though Kapil is way more than what his stats suggest.

Even Sobers/Imran/Kallis vs SRT - Its hard to do meaningful comparisons cos the comparison field is sooo wide.

As for Ashwin....I do feel his bowling has been amazing in recent times. Just wanna see if its purple patch or he is genuinely good. This SA series would tell us a lot about Ashwin but he is on track to be 2nd best AR India ever had (in tests). Maybe he can even get to No 1 AR (in tests) someday if he keeps bowling like this.

Here's a stat:

Ashwin averages sub 20 in every series post WC 2015.

Bangladesh Test, Bangladesh ODI, SL Test, SA T20 and looked good even in the 4 overs he bowled against SA in 1st ODI.

So let's see. Will be interesting to watch his career growth.

Kapil not an ATG in tests...You spend too much time on the green ghetto :headshake: the guy was the No1 wicket taker in tests in the world at one point of time.....agreed that he hung around too long to get that record.....just like the 100 100's debacle.

I think that may have tarnished his image a bit just like the 100 100 took away some of the mystique of Sachin for me even though I do not blame him for that match loss where our trundlers got smoked by Bangladesh lower order

[HippoSucks]

Kapil not an ATG in tests...You spend too much time on the green ghetto :headshake: the guy was the No1 wicket taker in tests in the world at one point of time.....agreed that he hung around too long to get that record.....just like the 100 100's debacle.

I think that may have tarnished his image a bit just like the 100 100 took away some of the mystique of Sachin for me even though I do not blame him for that match loss where our trundlers got smoked by Bangladesh lower order

It is very difficult to call Kapil an ATG bowler, even though he was far better than his statistics suggest. He was definitely an ATG allrounder though.

[gakgupta]

You are absolutely spot on. He is the greatest Indian cricketer in both formats of the game and the first name in our all time XI.

1. Bowling- India's greatest ever pacer in tests as well as ODIs. in tests he has 434 wickets @29.6(it should be even better, 380-400 wickets @26 odd something but inflated by his selfish quest to Hadlee's world record). The most astonishing thing about that is most of them were on dry unresponsive Indian wickets(they were really flat those days with a very high draw percentage, remember England India '82 or Pak-India '86, just 2 examples, many more like these two) while Hadlee/Botham had conducive conditions and Imran had bottle caps and Shakoor Rana. He also had very little support from the other end and batsmen used to try and play him out without taking undue risk. Add to that his legendary quests in West Indies where he single handedly broke the spine of the greatest team of all time many times. He has many MOMs and even a MOS courtesy his bowling performances in WI against that team, in India even more( I believe he averages 41 with the bat and 24 with the ball against them overall) !!! Almost setup a series win in Aus in '85 (denied by patriotic Aussie umpires) and helped us win in England 2-0 against a very good team. Also don't forget his legendary pwnage of a great Pakistani team in 79-80, a series we were never expected to win. I can go in and on about his test exploits with the ball but let me stop here. If I were to list down 10 greatest bowling performances by Indian bowlers in tests Kapil paaji would alone have at least 4 or 5, that's how great he was. In ODIs he was even better.  253 wickets @27.5 and ER of 3.7 again mindblowing. In tests he may be inferior to Imran and Hadlee but in LOIs he was the best of the quartet. He was a very tight bowler, no extras, no easy runs and always got us early breakthroughs. A very good outswing, probably the best late outswing of all time. The way he used to square up even great batsmen was awesome to watch.

2. Batting- Very under rated. In test cricket he has a few ATG knocks like the 100 in the tied Madras test, 100 at above run a ball in Port of Spain '83, 141 in RSA '92 etc. Serious underachiever with the bat but clearly better than Imran(who was a stat booster, having very few knocks of significance) and Hadlee and almost at par with Botham(slightly inferior). He was good enough to be the number 6 in a very strong batting lineup which had the likes of Gavaskar,Srikhanth, Amarnath, Vengsarkar, Azhar, etc. Our batting lineup was seriously scary then, in fact until the fab 5 came along it was probably our greatest batting lineup. The best thing about his batting was his audacity(remember the 4 consecutive 6's of Hemmings to avoid follow on) only eclipsed by Viru in recent times. He was a force of nature taking apart the best of bowling attacks, the proof being his insane SR. In ODIs his average may have been low but in that era his average was ok. his SR was 95, highest in the world, even better than King Viv. My estimate is that if he were playing the mickey mouse ODI cricket today he would be averaging 30 odd at SR 160 odd easily. He was like ABDV on steriods but very inconsistent. Also has the greatest ODI knock by an Indian(175), the one BBC didn't cover thanks to that strike. If not for that innings we wouldn't have qualified for the semis in '83.

3. Fielding- IMHO the 2nd best all round fielder after Azhar in the history of Indian cricket and the best outfielder ever from India. Seriously good catcher as well, remember the one to dismiss the King in the '83 finals?

4. Fitness- Fittest cricketer ever from Asia at least. Never once was unfit. Could have had the record for most consecutive test matches but for the selfish Gavaskar and the Bombay lobby. His longevity is freakish, considering he also bowled so much throughout his career.

5. Captaincy- Not the greatest tactician but a good motivator and led by example. Had a tough job because of the Mumbai lobby always ready to undermine him. Gavaskar calling him a ******* in public, Sandeep Patil hitting him with a bat, insults thrown at him all the time taking advantage of his naivety, being dropped to stop him from achieving the record for most consecutive test matches etc are shining examples of the odds stacked against him. He never got a long run as captain, which was unfair. History will remember him as the youngest WC winning captain(24 years old) and that is a stupendous feat.

6. He was a big match player with some serious numbers in the '83 WC and '85 B&H World Championship.  Was also the number 1 ICC ODI all rounder for 11 consecutive years, a feat no cricketer has achieved till date in any of the disciplines.

Overall I would say he lords over SunnyG, SRT, RD, Kumble, Viru... all of them.

In fact only SRT comes close to him but as a total cricketer he is no match for paaji. Taking tests+ODIS

Batting   SRT 9/10, Paaji 6/10

Bowling SRT 3/10, Paaji 8/10

Fielding SRT 7/10, Paaji 9.5/10

Captaincy SRT 2/10, Paaji 7/10

Hold your breath as to what I am about to say, but the only cricketer capable of surpassing Kapil in the near future is Ashwin. I feel Ashwin has all the ingredients to become India's greatest test cricketer, 4 MOS in 27 tests But the odds are stacked against him and even if he achieves  80% of what Paaji achieved Indian cricket will go places with guys like Kohli, Rahane, Pujara, Vijay, Shami, Ishant, Mishra to support him.

 

 

You echo my views on ashwin......i only wish he takes his batting little seriously and play sensibly by cutting out pull shots

[express bowling]

It is very difficult to call Kapil an ATG bowler, even though he was far better than his statistics suggest. He was definitely an ATG allrounder though.

Kapil was an ATG bowler for his first 75 tests or so ...when he took around 300 wickets @ around 4 wickets per test....without the help of bottle-caps although he played more than 60% of those tests in the sub-continent...and without any supporting pacer from the other end.

He became an ordinary bowler after his knee injury in 1986 which slowed him down a lot.

[rtmohanlal]

it is really senseless to hear various people's comments in these lines as ' unluckly Kapil played too long and got his stats declined  , unluckly  Kapil didn't get much bowling   support , fortunate that Imran had bottle tops' etc etc . To all such people i have only one thing to say . there is no luck or unluck  involved in these matters. we have to just take them as the context Kapil played his cricket and evaluate him accordingly. For instance, if Imran used  bottle tops and Kapil didn't,  then Imran losses some credibility in this one-one comparison.similarly if Kapil didn't have  enough bowling support, Kapil deserves special credit and has to be provided with extra points in this one-one comparison . straight and simple . i have seen a lot of people  greiving about all disadvantages kapil  had to over come to achieve  his eventual stats and then they claim Imran as the best of the 2.

 

But for me these  factors like 'ball tamper', ' lack of bowling support', longevity ' etc are all contexts. Depending on these contexts, Kapil was the better all rounder for me. pure and simple

[Trichromatic]

Kapil was an ATG bowler for his first 75 tests or so ...when he took around 300 wickets @ around 4 wickets per test....without the help of bottle-caps although he played more than 60% of those tests in the sub-continent...and without any supporting pacer from the other end.

He became an ordinary bowler after his knee injury in 1986 which slowed him down a lot.

It took him 83 tests to take 300 wickets. Only Broad, Zak and Vaas played more to take 300 wickets.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Vibhash

[express bowling]

It took him 83 wickets to take 300 wickets. Only Broad, Zak and Vaas played more to take 300 wickets.

That is nothing but MAGIC.   

On a serious note... Kapil took 280 wickets from 73 tests @ 3.84 wickets per test, till 31/3/1985. He started having major knee problems from 1986 and his performance deteriorated.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30028.html?class=1;spanmax2=31+Dec+1985;spanval2=span;template=results;type=bowling

[rtmohanlal]

That is nothing but MAGIC.   

On a serious note... Kapil took 280 wickets from 73 tests @ 3.84 wickets per test, till 31/3/1985. He started having major knee problems from 1986 and his performance deteriorated.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30028.html?class=1;spanmax2=31+Dec+1985;spanval2=span;template=results;type=bowling

Actually Kapil  played his first 62 tests in a  span of just 5 years & 5 months  and took 247 wkts ( 4 wkts per test).it was then  that his knee injury occoured. What  he did was he did not take time break  after his surgery and straight away turned out to play.the result was only 64 wkts in his next 26 tests( 2.46 wkts / test).Had he taken adequate rest to get his injury completely healed, his  would have maintained atleast  lot better  that   2.46wkts/test. that is where credit should be given to the great Kapil. He could have easily opted out for a few months break. But instead  he prefered to place 'country' first. it is based on such  contexts that we need to evaluate Kapil 

[sensible-indian]

Kapil was better than his stats but cmon he is hardly ATG bowler. Even in his best period, he averages 28. The best period of most ATG bowlers hovers around 20. The gap is too big. Its not like he averages 25 that we can say a he would have had ATG stats with some good support.

In addition to it, he averages 26 in India, 23-24 in WI and 24 in Aus. All this without support bowlers and heavy work load and what not.

He messed up against others. Averaging 39 in England swing tracks, 42 in NZ tracks and 37 in SA. He didn't screw up his stats due to Indian tracks. It got screwed up due to these stats. So no real excuse to be honest.

A case can be made of him not reaching up to his potential.

And what's this thing about green ghetto?

Anyways, here's a simple test: Does any neutral consider Kapil ATG bowler?

Case closed.

Kapil was an ATG all rounder though. Good bowler who had lots of potential. Good lower order bat who had lots of potential but didn't use it. One of cricket's greatest natural talents. The more I read about him, the more I realize what he could have been.

Our greatest ever AR.

But that's about it. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Edited December 5, 2015 by sensible-indian