Kuptaan's Foolhardy Bravado leads India into the abyss

[tweaker]

Kohli has sacrificed his 5 bowler theory for Rohit.Under pressure to drop Rohit,he dropped the 5 th bowler

[Bigg Brother]

His selection today is good.Vijay and Rohit can bowl off spin.Could have dropped Ishant but he is the spearhead.

[express bowling]

29 minutes ago, Bigg Brother said:

His selection today is good.Vijay and Rohit can bowl off spin.

Kumble said  that our bowlers need to learn how to bat. 

 

Similarly, our batsmen should practice their bowling , so that they can give rest to out main bowlers for a few overs.   Vijay, Rohit, Kohli  and Pujara should be the candidates to do that.

Edited August 18, 2016 by express bowling

[express bowling]

While I  like the flexibility shown in this match regarding the 5-bowler strategy....this pitch, being on the flatter side, does not look ideal for going with 4 bowlers.    

 

Rule of thumb should be 5 bowlers on flat pitches and  6 batsmen on bowler-friendly pitches.

[sandeep]

Kohli's basically saying his bowlers are good enough to get 20 wickets against this weak Windies batting.  And he will add scoreboard pressure by batting big and quick with the deeper lineup.  Its hard to bat with positive intent if you are playing one batsman short....

 

He's challenging the bowlers to take the next step, and not get used to the luxury of always having 5 man attack.  I don't love it, but can support it.  

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

39 minutes ago, express bowling said:

While I  like the flexibility shown in this match regarding the 5-bowler strategy....this pitch, being on the flatter side, does not look ideal for going with 4 bowlers.    

Rule of thumb should be 5 bowlers on flat pitches and  6 batsmen on bowler-friendly pitches.

 

19 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Kohli's basically saying his bowlers are good enough to get 20 wickets against this weak Windies batting.  And he will add scoreboard pressure by batting big and quick with the deeper lineup.  Its hard to bat with positive intent if you are playing one batsman short....

He's challenging the bowlers to take the next step, and not get used to the luxury of always having 5 man attack.  I don't love it, but can support it.  

Looking at the weather , might not be a bad ploy as continous rain breaks will keep our bowlers fresh. There seems to be a thought process of giving most players in squad a chance. 

Now to be in 11 consistently they all will have to lift their game or pressure might get the better of them. Now this is something we will find out in future. But before our overseas tour we have to figure our best 5-6 batsman and it cant be done without giving them games. Even for likes of dhawan n Rohit needs game to even fail. 

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Looking at the weather , might not be a bad ploy as continous rain breaks will keep our bowlers fresh. There seems to be a thought process of giving most players in squad a chance. 

Now to be in 11 consistently they all will have to lift their game or pressure might get the better of them. Now this is something we will find out in future. But before our overseas tour we have to figure our best 5-6 batsman and it cant be done without giving them games. Even for likes of dhawan n Rohit needs game to even fail. 

With the weather, 6 batsmen making more and more sense.  Enables us to bat a lot more aggressively, and at the same time gives us the best shot at only having to bat once.  Then we try and take 20 wickets in the maximum time available after the weather delays.  

 

 

[Texan]

8 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Looking at the weather , might not be a bad ploy as continous rain breaks will keep our bowlers fresh. There seems to be a thought process of giving most players in squad a chance. 

Now to be in 11 consistently they all will have to lift their game or pressure might get the better of them. Now this is something we will find out in future. But before our overseas tour we have to figure our best 5-6 batsman and it cant be done without giving them games. Even for likes of dhawan n Rohit needs game to even fail. 

 

10 hours ago, express bowling said:

Kohli  is playing with 4 bowlers today and has said that he may do the same in India , on pitches where the 5th bowler is not required.

 

I  don't know whether 4 bowlers are enough on this supposedly flat pitch. 

 

But, a general flexibility regarding the number of bowlers, whether 4 or 5, is what I wanted to see.  It is better to choose the number of bowlers based on the opposition, pitch and conditions.

 

Great points both!

 

Now, Kohli may not make the best decisions and some could look outright foolish. However, at the very least, he seems to have some flexibility in his approach. It not just ensures that players understand that they need to perform consistently, but also keeps the opposition guessing. Just in the last Test match's press conference, he mentioned that he will continue batting at 3. Looking at the line-up, very likely Pujara might be back at 3. But he might even have Pujara at 5.

[fineleg]

At least its not the "We are playing the same XI" match after match like a stubborn mule that MSD did. So good he brought M.Vijay and Pujara in.

Edited August 19, 2016 by fineleg

[youngindia]

...but to give sufficient rest to the top pacers  so that they do not get over-bowled  and hence risk injury.

 

I am replying to you here since that thread may have got old..

 

first of all consider what happens on a cricket field.

 

A captain wants your best bowler to bowl as much possible.

 

A captain is not going to give too many overs to a bowler he does not have confidence in. a ffith bowler typically bowls only11-13 overs in an innings.

 

so what "rest" are you talkin about ? a short term rest for one bowler once or twice in an innings...such a short term rest is insignificant if you are going to stay for over 140 overs or more

 

your best bowlers will continue to be loaded because the captain wants them to bowl the most

 

those 11-13 overs can be taken care of by the best part timers.

 

countries generally find it difficult to find a decent fifth bowler for alien conditions and being a average talent pool, we are not going to find any decent fifth bowler

 

This theory of rest is dubious at best and even if its true , it is not solving even 1% of the problems of indian bowling.

 

The best way to take rest is bowl the opposition out.

 

Thats not going to happen if your best bowlers are not effective enough and if their best is not equal to the best of opposition batsmen.

 

extra man power is suitable  only for some real world scenarios..

 

for cases like bowling or a puzzle, extra manpower is not necessarily useful...that extra guy is useless unless he brings something

complementary or extra.

 

In bowling, penetrativeness  is the key. Manpower is largely an unsuitable factor barring  the minimum 4.

 

 

[Vilander]

2 hours ago, youngindia said:

 

 

 

I am replying to you here since that thread may have got old..

 

first of all consider what happens on a cricket field.

 

A captain wants your best bowler to bowl as much possible.

 

A captain is not going to give too many overs to a bowler he does not have confidence in. a ffith bowler typically bowls only11-13 overs in an innings.

 

so what "rest" are you talkin about ? a short term rest for one bowler once or twice in an innings...such a short term rest is insignificant if you are going to stay for over 140 overs or more

 

your best bowlers will continue to be loaded because the captain wants them to bowl the most

 

those 11-13 overs can be taken care of by the best part timers.

 

countries generally find it difficult to find a decent fifth bowler for alien conditions and being a average talent pool, we are not going to find any decent fifth bowler

 

This theory of rest is dubious at best and even if its true , it is not solving even 1% of the problems of indian bowling.

 

The best way to take rest is bowl the opposition out.

 

Thats not going to happen if your best bowlers are not effective enough and if their best is not equal to the best of opposition batsmen.

 

extra man power is suitable  only for some real world scenarios..

 

for cases like bowling or a puzzle, extra manpower is not necessarily useful...that extra guy is useless unless he brings something

complementary or extra.

 

In bowling, penetrativeness  is the key. Manpower is largely an unsuitable factor barring  the minimum 4.

 

 

good observation, but i am wondering why it cant be minimum 2, i am not saying we should go with 2 bowlers to a test, or 3 for that matter. but why not 2 with the same approach.

[youngindia]

36 minutes ago, Vilander said:

good observation, but i am wondering why it cant be minimum 2, i am not saying we should go with 2 bowlers to a test, or 3 for that matter. but why not 2 with the same approach.

Because on the nature of cricket...policies are made on ground realities.

 

1. 20 overs a day for test cricket

2. Number of competitive bowlers usually produced by the traditional test nations.

 

A fifth bowler   is not competitive in alien conditions as a rule.

 

Cricketing results  are largely decided by top 6 batsmen and top 3 bowlers a vast majority of the times..the next in line are at best supporting cast with lesser gifts especially in outside conditions

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sandeep]

33 minutes ago, youngindia said:

Because on the nature of cricket...policies are made on ground realities.

 

1. 20 overs a day for test cricket

2. Number of competitive bowlers usually produced by the traditional test nations.

 

A fifth bowler   is not competitive in alien conditions as a rule.

 

Cricketing results  are largely decided by top 6 batsmen and top 3 bowlers a vast majority of the times..the next in line are at best supporting cast with lesser gifts especially in outside conditions

You have a point  speaking generally, but sometimes its that supporting cast's contributions that puts the main guys in a position to influence a favorable outcome.  And the absence of a decent supporting cast makes the odds on that happening significantly lower.  

 

 

[express bowling]

16 minutes ago, sandeep said:

You have a point  speaking generally, but sometimes its that supporting cast's contributions that puts the main guys in a position to influence a favorable outcome.  And the absence of a decent supporting cast makes the odds on that happening significantly lower.  

 

 

Also, on many pitches, the " main cast " and the " supporting cast " change from the first innings to the 2nd due to the change in the nature of the pitch from a seam friendly one to a spin aiding one.

 

Like the first test in this series in Antigua...when the 3 fast bowlers were the main cast in the 1st innings and the 2 spinners were the main cast in the 2nd innings.

Edited August 19, 2016 by express bowling

[youngindia]

On 8/19/2016 at 10:25 PM, sandeep said:

You have a point  speaking generally, but sometimes its that supporting cast's contributions that puts the main guys in a position to influence a favorable outcome.  And the absence of a decent supporting cast makes the odds on that happening significantly lower.  

 

 

 

WRONG..only if the supporting cast is in top 6 or top 3-4 bowling

 

The supporting cast outside these positions  are up against  the  influence of top 6 batsmen and top 4 bowlers who are very superior in talent generally  and a far more major influence on your winning percentage . 

 

The supporting cast here(fifth bowler ) is not good enough to make a difference among such influence and strength

 

And understand this...who constitutes the top 6 batting or top 4 bowling is important...not beyond these positions.

 

 

 

The absence of a decent  supporting cast in the top 4 bowling or the top 6 batting may decrease the odds.

 

fifth bowler? ZERO influence'

 

A single fifth bowler of average talent is not a significant player in the overall winning percentage.its simple logic!

 

your direction is flawed because you are not focussing on the guys who have to take 15-20 wkts....you are focussing on guys who are lucky to get scrapes here and there...thats poor thinking strategically.

 

The  best players have to perform. your best players have to do the damage.they are the peak of a team..thats what you have to understand

 

Lesser players are not going to increase your wining percentage.

.

frankly this is a useless discussion

 

there is no evidence a fifth bowler has made our attack take 20 wickets in a major tour outside asia for the last 30 years or plus.

excluding against a inexperienced  zim team and an highly inexperienced Wi

 

it ends right there. and its not going to change...

 

 

[youngindia]

Quote

 

lso, on many pitches, the " main cast " and the " supporting cast " change from the first innings to the 2nd due to the change in the nature of the pitch from a seam friendly one to a spin aiding one.

 

For over 30 years, rarely an opposition been generous enough to give us spin friendly wickets.

 

our bowlers are not used to kookaburra balls and their style does not suit skiddy wickets either...

 

so you dont want to bet on spin friendly wickets except as a stroke of luck like the 2013 CT final.

 

our spinners can play only a support role in general more often than not...like take 6 wickets in a match

Edited August 21, 2016 by youngindia
edt

[sandeep]

YI.  You are missing a few points.  Even a green wicket on D1 can help a spinner on D4 or D5, provided the team has created a game situation where the spinner can attack and the batsmen have to restrain themselves from attacking.  Spinners need the match situation to magnify their efficacy if the pitch doesn't offer too much turn.  

 

Hardly any memorable test wins happen without contributions from the "supporting cast".  Take India's most recent test win - Without #7 batsman Saha's century, or 4th and 5th bowler (Ishant and Jadeja)'s contributions with wickets and holding one end up, we don't win that match.  But you seem to have your mind made up already, so fuggedaboutit.  

[express bowling]

On 8/21/2016 at 11:06 PM, youngindia said:

 

For over 30 years, rarely an opposition been generous enough to give us spin friendly wickets.

 

our bowlers are not used to kookaburra balls and their style does not suit skiddy wickets either...

 

so you dont want to bet on spin friendly wickets except as a stroke of luck like the 2013 CT final.

 

our spinners can play only a support role in general more often than not...like take 6 wickets in a match

 

I am not talking about spin-friendly tracks per se.

 

Pitches,  in general, have changed their nature outside Asia in the last few years.  More and more pitches have less grass than earlier years. This is resulting in seam friendly tracks for the first 2 or 3 days and spin friendly situations in the last 2 days.  Like we saw in Antigua and Lords in the last 2 months.

 

 

 

[rkt.india]

13 hours ago, sandeep said:

YI.  You are missing a few points.  Even a green wicket on D1 can help a spinner on D4 or D5, provided the team has created a game situation where the spinner can attack and the batsmen have to restrain themselves from attacking.  Spinners need the match situation to magnify their efficacy if the pitch doesn't offer too much turn.  

 

Hardly any memorable test wins happen without contributions from the "supporting cast".  Take India's most recent test win - Without #7 batsman Saha's century, or 4th and 5th bowler (Ishant and Jadeja)'s contributions with wickets and holding one end up, we don't win that match.  But you seem to have your mind made up already, so fuggedaboutit.  

more often than not it wont. There are plenty of examples of it from SA to NZ and England in last 3 years.

[mishra]

On 23/08/2016 at 4:10 AM, rkt.india said:

more often than not it wont. There are plenty of examples of it from SA to NZ and England in last 3 years.

Not sure but i think with right type of roller and 35 degrees Celsius temperature u may get a spinning track on day 4-5