Replace MS Dhoni as ODI Skipper at Your Own Peril: Gary Kirsten

[sandeep]

If he doesn't see the writing on the wall, then selectors should do it for him.  But give him a year or so, to see if he can bounce back and evolve into a viable LOI player.  If a Yuvi or Raina can be given repeated chances, so can MS.  

[kruiser]

i agree that the onus is not on Dhoni, but on selectors to show some spine. Why should any player retire if he is getting a chance to play?

[maniac]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

If he doesn't see the writing on the wall, then selectors should do it for him.  But give him a year or so, to see if he can bounce back and evolve into a viable LOI player.  If a Yuvi or Raina can be given repeated chances, so can MS.  

Yuvi and Raina were dropped because they were not captains,so eventually they were accountable for their performances despite being star players....MSD has been sucking the life out of the team for a loooooong time.

 

Case in point-Knocked out before the elimination rounds in 3 consecutive WT20's....Poor T20 player in general...single handedly lost at least a couple of matches from the top of my head...a T20 game against Nzl and the infamous one against England when he was batting with Rayudu....still persisted with...Do you think he is being held accountable with the same benchmark as others?

 

ODI's-Lost home and away against SA,Lost in Aus,Lost in Nzl and LOST IN BANGLADESH.......was mediocre in the CT and WC with the bat where team performances were good and all of a sudden people were like hail captain forgetting his batting stats.....when we lost all those series,it is team sucks overseas etc etc.

 

Dhoni is past his shelf life after 2011 as a captain and as a batsman around 2012-2013.

[gattaca]

Maniac dhoni won 2013 champions trophy and triangular in Windies. We reached final in wt20 2014. It just past two years he hasn't been playing great.

Edited November 3, 2016 by gattaca

[maniac]

44 minutes ago, gattaca said:

Maniac dhoni won 2013 champions trophy and triangular in Windies. We reached final in wt20 2014. It just past two years he hasn't been playing great.

So Dhoni won CT 2013,Series in WI and reached W20 Finals and Semis in 14 and 16 but the team lost all the other series?

 

2014 W T20 

vs SRL in final 4*(7) batting at 5

vs SA in semis 0*(1) batting at 6

VS Bangladesh we won by 8 wickets chasing a low score of 138 and all of a sudden he promotes himself to 4??? 22*(12)-Will be shown to be a great finishing innings by fans

vs Australia 24(20) batting at 6

 

So against good bowling sides Aus and SA he bats at 6.....vs Bangladesh at 4 and vs Srilanka at 5 and obviously still sucks at that...if you go by stats he averages 50..tell me if that does any justice?

 

2016 WT20

vs WI in Semis 15*(9) in the slog overs? batting at 4

vs Aus 18*(10) batting at 6

vs Bangladesh 13*(12)

vs Pak 13*(9)

vs  Nzl 30(30)

 

Clearly there is a pattern here...Look at the S/R....Look at the quest to be not outs...Look at shuffle in the batting order against relatively weaker lineups....Apart from 2 innings or 3 max.....rest all were very poor,selfish and momentum sucking innings...especially when he is our power hitter and No 6.

 

WC2015

vs Pak 18(13)

vs SA 18(11)

vs WI 45*(56)-Good knock

vs Zim 85*(76)-Good knock but look at the quality of the opposition

vs Ban 6(11) Quarterfinals-Choked

vs Aus 65(65) Semis-Don't go by score...it was a pathetic selfish innings without any intent but yes others sucked worse than him so gets benefit of the doubt

 

Champions Trophy 2013

Finals vs England 0(4)

vs SA 27(26) when the team total is 337 coming in as a late order hitter???

 

Tri Series

vs WI 27(35)

Final 45(52) yes was a good innings against his fav team

 

We have already declared the overseas and home t20 and odi failures are a collective effort....these are hardly stellar innings that require an extended run...Ravindra Jadeja has played as many match winning innings in this period too and so have Raina etc...so why special treatment to Dhoni?

 

 

 

 

 

[maniac]

Also as a captain 45 matches since 2014 Jan

 

Won-22

Lost-21

N/R or Tied-2

 

Out of those 22 wins 3 of them where against Zim recently and also includes our golden run in the WC...apart from that pretty poor I think

 

 

[velu]

Also as a captain 45 matches since 2014 Jan

 

Won-22

Lost-21

N/R or Tied-2

 

Out of those 22 wins 3 of them where against Zim recently and also includes our golden run in the WC...apart from that pretty poor I think

 

 

We tighten our game in icc events [emoji3]

Whatever you meant are fillers between IPLs

[maniac]

2 minutes ago, velu said:

We tighten our game in icc events

Whatever you meant are fillers between IPLs

Then he should only play in ICC events and travel to Ireland,Zim for match practice 

[Muloghonto]

16 hours ago, Texan said:

Playing domestic is not always a great idea for some players coming through the U19 ranks. In most cases I agree that domestics would be the way to go. Often players like Pant could actually regress in domestics. I don't see any harm in trying him in a few T20s. Dhoni is pretty useless these days in T20s. 

A player may plateau out/regress in domestics if they do not move forward after repeatedly dominating the league. Look at someone like SS Das. But if one wants to be given a shot at the international team, one of these criterias must be met:

 

a) That 'someone' is a generational talent

b) There is a huge hole to fill in that position for the national team

c) Proven history of dominance at the lower levels.

 

[Muloghonto]

15 hours ago, express bowling said:

Exactly......the same logic was given by many regarding a WK in test matches when Dhoni retired but Saha has been doing quite well in recent times.

 

Some one like a Samson can be easily groomed with Dhoni still in the team and Pant can be tried after CT, after he finishes one full domestic season.

 

The year after CT will be the ideal time to groom a new WK batsman, with the WC 2019  still 2 years away.

 

Grooming someone new means having a back-up  if required or the back-up can play as a pure batsman if he is good.  Dhoni can still continue if he performs really well in  CT 17.

 

 

How about we talk about an actual keeper, not a 21 year old who isn't even a designated keeper for his state side ? 

Samson is no way in line to replace Dhoni or Saha. Not until he can show 2-3 seasons of solid keeping work as the primary keeper for his state and one of the top talents in all of India. 

 

[Muloghonto]

9 hours ago, putrevus said:

That is just wrong way of thinking, David Warner had almost no FC record and yet he has been so successful as Opener, so was Viru he was never thought as a test player while coming up  but when given a chance he proved so many people wrong.

 

Dravid, SRT and VVS all of them should have been dumped right after world cup 2011, same should be done to Dhoni after next years CT. You do not wait see if you have got ready made replacement, you will have some growing pains when you select a new player but when you believe in the talent in any young player you invest in that player. What FC record did Sachin have when he was selected.

Err before Sachin made his debut as a 16 year old, this was his first class record:

 

9 matches, 12 innings, 3 not outs, 772 runs @ 85.77, 103* (HS), 2x100, 6x50s ( i.e., 50+ scores in 66% innings played). 

This includes 1 FC match in Pakistan. This is a formidable record for ANYBODY starting off in FC cricket, let alone a 15 year old. 

 

 Oh and  I don't believe in 'young player talent'. I believe in performance. I don't care if a 20 year old could be ATG in 5 years with proper 'grooming', if he isn't fit enough to get to the squad as a 20 year old, he isn't fit enough to be in the squad till he is. Period. I'd rather take a 35 year old and get 2-3 years of solid performance than a 20 year old and wait 2-3 years for him to stop crapping the bed. 

Havn't we learnt anything from Australia or USA or ANY professional sports set-up ? Whats the bloody attraction towards a young player who doesnt have the same level of production as a 30 year old, i'd never understand.

 

As i said before many times, India isn't going to be a powerhouse team, till we drop this absurd obsession over 'the next generational talent superstar kid' and start giving chances to seasoned domestic vets who have proven themselves over and over. We need a team model, where 80% of the players are in the 28-30 range when debuting, getting 4-6 seasons of solid work out of them, with 20% of the team being composed of 'generational talents/early starters who can compete for a XI spot as a 20-21 year old', before we see consistent results like the Aussies or the Saffies. 

 

Edited November 3, 2016 by Muloghonto

[MK55]

If there's no major tournament thats lined up, selectors need to choose players that are going to maximize the performance in the next big tournament without compromising considerably in the tournaments that are imminent.

 

Now if there is an alternative that is expected to deliver at even 70% of an existing player's effectiveness, I'd rather choose him. This would particulary make more sense when the existing player is on a decline and the replacment is showing signs of growth. First class cricket in some nations just doesnt have the level of competitiveness to promote accelerated growth.

 

MS these days is not even 50% the player he was some 5 years back and Im expecting this deterioration trend to continue on seeing his recent performances. Power hitting ability has diminished and Ive never found him adept an manoevering the ball  through the gaps, a skill thats vital as a middle order bat.

 

So i hope MS introspects after the champions trophy and not be too dogmatic in justifying his incĺusion by saying that his replacement is not matching his current performance.

 

The game has changed. If you compare with some of the other top odi teams around, you'd notice that we've fallen behind. We just havent got the X factor comparable to players like de kock, Roussov, Butler, Jason Roy, Woakes, Mitch Marsh etc.

[rkt.india]

7 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

How about we talk about an actual keeper, not a 21 year old who isn't even a designated keeper for his state side ? 

Samson is no way in line to replace Dhoni or Saha. Not until he can show 2-3 seasons of solid keeping work as the primary keeper for his state and one of the top talents in all of India. 

 

he is primary keeper for his state for last 2 seasons.

[express bowling]

8 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

How about we talk about an actual keeper, not a 21 year old who isn't even a designated keeper for his state side ? 

Samson is no way in line to replace Dhoni or Saha. Not until he can show 2-3 seasons of solid keeping work as the primary keeper for his state and one of the top talents in all of India. 

 

In recent times, all new players, with either no or very limited international experience, have all been included in the test and ODI squads via the A team route. 

 

That would be players like Hardik Pandya for ODI and test squads, Pandey, Jayant, Dhawal and Mandeep  for ODIs and Shardul, Karun and Jayant for test matches.  

 

Samson was the wicket-keeper for India A in the one day matches on our last tour to Australia and did well both as a batsman and a keeper. ( Naman was the WK for the unofficial tests ) 

 

So, it is logical that he is the next in line as the keeper-batsman in ODIs from the BCCI's point of view and they are the ones who actually matter.  Also, as Rkt pointed out, Samson has been the primary keeper for his state in the last 2 seasons.

 

 

Edited November 4, 2016 by express bowling

[Muloghonto]

21 minutes ago, express bowling said:

In recent times, all new players, with either no or very limited international experience, have all been included in the test and ODI squads via the A team route. 

 

That would be players like Hardik Pandya for ODI and test squads, Pandey, Jayant, Dhawal and Mandeep  for ODIs and Shardul, Karun and Jayant for test matches.  

 

Samson was the wicket-keeper for India A in the one day matches on our last tour to Australia and did well both as a batsman and a keeper. ( Naman was the WK for the unofficial tests ) 

 

So, it is logical that he is the next in line as the keeper-batsman in ODIs from the BCCI's point of view and they are the ones who actually matter.  Also, as Rkt pointed out, Samson has been the primary keeper for his state in the last 2 seasons.

 

 

And not a single one of those guys have stood out, solidified their careers or been considered even regulars. I don't give a whit about who is a keeper for one days. Samson is not a FC keeper, Surendran is keeping for Kerala in Ranjis. So a wicketkeeper who isn't even an automatic first choice keeper for his domestic side in the long game, is not a keeper. He is a batsman who can sit on his haunches for 4-5 hours at a time and no more. 

 

[Muloghonto]

47 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

he is primary keeper for his state for last 2 seasons.

Not in FC cricket. Which means he is not a real keeper. I don't mind having the Rahul Dravid types in the team, batsmen who can don the gloves in emergency for a day or so. But the guy is as much a wicket-keeper as Jaddu is a frontline batsman or Binny is a bowler.

NOT QUALIFIED for a full time keeper's job.

 

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Not in FC cricket. Which means he is not a real keeper. I don't mind having the Rahul Dravid types in the team, batsmen who can don the gloves in emergency for a day or so. But the guy is as much a wicket-keeper as Jaddu is a frontline batsman or Binny is a bowler.

NOT QUALIFIED for a full time keeper's job.

 

In FC cricket, that is what I am talking about. Samson has been keeping regularly for Kerala in Ranji trophy for 2 seasons now and he was primarily a wicket keeper but his batting brought him into limelight but that does not mean he was not a keeper, not someone like Rahul Dravid or Kedar Jadhav or Uthappa who are/were primarily batsmen. Anyway, good wicket keeping skills take time to develop. Dhoni didn't become a good keeper overnight. He was only a notch better than likes of Dravid as a keeper when he started at the age of 23-24.

 

This is the first game of this season and Samson is the keeper.

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ranji-trophy-2016-17/engine/match/1053477.html

Edited November 4, 2016 by rkt.india

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

And not a single one of those guys have stood out, solidified their careers or been considered even regulars. I don't give a whit about who is a keeper for one days. Samson is not a FC keeper, Surendran is keeping for Kerala in Ranjis. So a wicketkeeper who isn't even an automatic first choice keeper for his domestic side in the long game, is not a keeper. He is a batsman who can sit on his haunches for 4-5 hours at a time and no more. 

 

Most of these guys have not played much or at all  to either stand out or to fail.  Among the only 2 players who have....Pandya was the Man of the match in the first ODI and batted really well in the second to take our team to near victory after the team was tottering at 182 for 8.   Manish Pandey scored a century in an ODI in Australia.

 

We are talking about the ODI team here....not the test team.   In the test team, Saha is the established keeper now and does not need to be replaced.

[Muloghonto]

35 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Most of these guys have not played much or at all  to either stand out or to fail.  Among the only 2 players who have....Pandya was the Man of the match in the first ODI and batted really well in the second to take our team to near victory after the team was tottering at 182 for 8.   Manish Pandey scored a century in an ODI in Australia.

 

We are talking about the ODI team here....not the test team.   In the test team, Saha is the established keeper now and does not need to be replaced.

Its the process that matters. As i said, look at Australia/South Africa, where they have no problems keeping a team that is of a certain standard for decades. India has had a lot more high & low than Australia in the last 10 years and that has a lot to do with our inconsistent & unreasonable selection policies over cold, hard, fact-based selection approaches of Australia. 

You think India would EVER produce a Mike Hussey or Adam Voges ? No. Because we are all about 'rush the kid with potential before he's done squat, but ignore the 34 year old vet who's proven lots because we are all ageists'. 
First thing we ask when a 30-something gets selected is 'whats the point of a guy who will play only 4-5 years max?' instead of asking 'will this guy do more in the 4-5 years than our new Sachin Tendulkar wannabe 21 year old who is going to be crap for the next 4 years?' 

 

[Muloghonto]

55 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

In FC cricket, that is what I am talking about. Samson has been keeping regularly for Kerala in Ranji trophy for 2 seasons now and he was primarily a wicket keeper but his batting brought him into limelight but that does not mean he was not a keeper, not someone like Rahul Dravid or Kedar Jadhav or Uthappa who are/were primarily batsmen. Anyway, good wicket keeping skills take time to develop. Dhoni didn't become a good keeper overnight. He was only a notch better than likes of Dravid as a keeper when he started at the age of 23-24.

 

This is the first game of this season and Samson is the keeper.

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ranji-trophy-2016-17/engine/match/1053477.html

 

Again, check your facts. I just googled Kerala Ranji team and the most recent Ranji match featuring Kerala has Sanju playing as a batting specialist, with Nikhilesh Surendran as the designate keeper.

A guy who cannot hold down the job of a full-time keeper for his domestic side in the longer format, is not a 'potential wicketkeeping material' in any format for the international team. 

Wicketkeeping is about wicketkeeping first, not how good the batting is. Give me a wicketkeeper who averages 25 with the bat but can throw himself around like Boucher any day of the week over a guy who can average 40+ but misses basic stumping.