Should Rishabh Pant be fast-tracked into the Indian Test team?

[TNAmarkFrmIndia]

12 hours ago, maniac said:

I won't use IPL as a benchmark for test cricket for obvious reasons but the quality of bowling in the IPL is way superior to A tours and add to that the pressure and the crowds. How many such innings does Yadav has where he has whacked 150+ bowlers? All I have seen of him in the international arena is playing % cricket....Sorry but if your go to shots against pace is dab to thirdman and block anything out of your zone..you don't have the tools for international cricket and that's all I have seen of Jadhav in international cricket.

 

Shikhar Dhawan scored 248 in South Africa A...Do you think Dhawan can score a 100 let alone 248 in South Africa against a full strength South African team in a ODI game.

 

You either have it or you don't.....Jadhav doesn't have age on his side and on top of that he doesn't tick any boxes that India needs in the LOI format right now and there are better LOI batsman than him.

 

Time to Thank him for his service and let him collect his IPL pay cheques and domestic pension.

 

I am not saying A Tours are completely useless either....it tests a player's temperament for sure...Also I would rate bowling performances in A team tours and yes players who do well in A Tours should be considered but no way is A Tour much superior to the domestics or even the IPL. People seem to think A Tours are some kind of benchmark...they are not especially for batsmen.

 

Jadhav is a % cricketer at best and yes he might do well against Srilanka,WI or even Newzealand at home in a low stakes encounter but he is not the one for the long run...it is so clear to see...cmon if Jadhav is the future of the Indian side either we have serious lack of talent or serious errors on betting on the "lambi race ka ghoda" 

IPL has a superior quality of bowling? Are you kidding me? Very rarely do IPL sides pick a quickie as one of their four foreign players. It's mostly batsmen and all-rounders. And even when they are picked, the numbers are mostly made up by domestic Indian bowlers. Couple that with the batsmen-friendly tracks in India and they all get slaughtered. The 'A' teams still constitute of the second-string fast bowlers, those on the brink of making it to the national team. To suggest that the IPL has some high level of fast bowling that tests batsmen is ludicrous.

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

It is the time that matters.

And DeQock played 20 FC matches before he played ANY sort of international cricket, over 3 years.

He isn't just sitting around when he isn't playing FC matches, he is playing in the junior level, all the while honing his keeping skills.

 

Seriously, does anyone on this board have even the remotest clue about keeping ? Its not a Batting dominant job, not even close, in terms of the amount of time it takes to become a competent keeper-batsman.

most of keeping is a complex set of muscle-memory actions that you HAVE to drill in young to develop those muscle memory. This is why we see batsmen debuting at 20 but hardly EVER we see a keeper debuting at 20.

 

Pant has also been playing at Junior level. He has played age group cricket before being picked for India U19 and Delhi Ranji team. He made his  Ranji debut last season.

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Pant has also been playing at Junior level. He has played age group cricket before being picked for India U19 and Delhi Ranji team. He made his  Ranji debut last season.

sorry, my mistake. By junior level, i didnt mean juniors, i meant 2nd grade to their FC side. Yes, South Africa has that structure. 

Point is, even someone as precocious as DeKock was given exposure at top domestic level for years, before exposing him to international cricket.

Obviously, he was bloody young, so his exposure was controlled, so that he doesn't burn out as a kid. Wicketkeeping is the hardest bloody job you know, especially when morons like so many here expect you to do just as well as a specialist bat after keeping for a whole day.  Its practically being an all-rounder, except that instead of running around and throwing your arms for 120-200 balls/day to getting low (even more tolling against spinners, as you have to go into deep crouch) and having a ball thud into your gloves for hours at the rate of 2 every 80-90 seconds or so. 

Why the heck do you think that he is even remotely ready to keep at international level ?

He is not a blinding wicketkeeping talent - to be fair to him, hardly anybody is, at this stage anyways. 
Asking him to 'learn his game' at ANY international level will most likely serve only one purpose: severely dent his confidence, especially if he drops critical ones. Look at it this way: he just got around to keeping against men. Of that, there is hardly more than 2 'servicabe' bowlers he is keeping to, with nobody being even an 'india-great', which on the grand scheme of cricket things, is not that great anyways barring Ashwin.

 

So ask yourself, how is it any different than seeing a 19 year old bowler bowl for 10 games and ask him to be blooded into the T20 side, coz you know, 'he only has to run 24 times if he doesnt * up' ?

 

Whether he gets blooded or not, it will be a bad choice. I am almost certain he will be exposed if the pitch is juicy and its international cricket. 

He needs to work on his technique. 

Btw, am i the only guy here who ever seriously tried keeping,on this forum ? Like...seriously ? 19 year old bending over at men's league for the a dozen times and all of a sudden he is 'international material' ? 

[CG]

Play him in odis first.

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

It is the time that matters.

And DeQock played 20 FC matches before he played ANY sort of international cricket, over 3 years.

 

 

I want Pant to play a lot of FC cricket  this year and the next.  No way should he miss the Ranji seasons, where he will have maximum chance to develop his keeping and even his batting to a lesser extent.  He will get a lot of practice to develop his basic game against weaker oppositions...which is usually needed for a couple of years for the real youngsters.

 

That being said, the next T20I series is at a time when the Ranji Trophy is over. Dhoni is and will be our keeper and  captain in LOIs till mid-2017 atleast.  That mean, if selected in LOIs,  Pant will play as just a  batsman. 

 

With no FC to miss and Pant not keeping....it  will probably help Pant to have a stint under Kumble's guidance and rub shoulders with the top guys of international cricket.

 

Next T20I  series against England is an ideal opportunity for that.  It will give him a chance to play some genuine pace in the nets as well as matches and  get accustomed to that. This part is very important for batsmen development too.   (  Someone like de Kock got to play more pace in his domestic cricket scenario as there are fewer teams and more fast bowlers in his country.... something that pant would rarely get unless he is playing Duleep Trophy which is already over )

 

He should not be in our test side as of today or play for India during the next Ranji season ....so that he can develop his keeping.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2016 by express bowling

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

I want Pant to play a lot of FC cricket  this year and the next.  No way should he miss the Ranji seasons, where he will have maximum chance to develop his keeping and even his batting to a lesser extent.  He will get a lot of practice to develop his basic game against weaker oppositions...which is usually needed for a couple of years for the real youngsters.

 

That being said, the next T20I series is at a time when the Ranji Trophy is over. Dhoni is and will be our keeper and  captain in LOIs till mid-2017 atleast.  That mean, if selected in LOIs,  Pant will play as just a  batsman. 

 

With no FC to miss and Pant not keeping....it  will probably help Pant to have a stint under Kumble's guidance and rub shoulders with the top guys of international cricket.

 

Next T20I  series against England is an ideal opportunity for that.  It will give him a chance to play some genuine pace in the nets as well as matches and  get accustomed to that. This part is very important for batsmen development too.   (  Someone like de Kock got to play more pace in his domestic cricket scenario as there are fewer teams and more fast bowlers in his country.... something that pant would rarely get unless he is playing Duleep Trophy which is already over )

 

He should not be in our test side as of today or play for India during the next Ranji season ....so that he can develop his keeping.

 

 

He is a wicketkeeper or a batsman ? make up your mind.
If he is a wicketkeeper, his batting is ahead of the curve. Unless you want him to keep to bowlers in the net (which rarely happens anyways), his wicketkeeping has not merited anything to put him in national contention. 

He should not be in any international format anytime soon, for this is equivalent of having a raw newbie bowler who doesnt exactly 'stick out as a hyper-talent', being thrust into the national team coz he is a killer fielder....That is the level of nonsense i am getting from you about focusing on how he helps the team as a batsman and is 'adequate' as a keeper. Which is just unjustifiable. 

As i said, stop beating around the bush and find me a wicket-keeper who debuts in international cricket within 2 seasons of playing against men, never mind just 1. As i said, deKock was in domestic system for YEARS before his international debut, so i fail to find any in Rishab's case, who played 1 year of professional cricket (i.e., in an adult league with a pro contract) and then debuted as a teenage wicketkeeper for national side- in ANY format.

 

So make your case whats so bloody brilliant about Rishab's keeping for him to be the first keeper ever to get this kind of a chance ?

 

I'd rather try Saha/Ojha for T-20 side than Rishab if Dhoni is seen as not adequate. 

 

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

He is a wicketkeeper or a batsman ? make up your mind.
If he is a wicketkeeper, his batting is ahead of the curve. Unless you want him to keep to bowlers in the net (which rarely happens anyways), his wicketkeeping has not merited anything to put him in national contention. 

He should not be in any international format anytime soon, for this is equivalent of having a raw newbie bowler who doesnt exactly 'stick out as a hyper-talent', being thrust into the national team coz he is a killer fielder....That is the level of nonsense i am getting from you about focusing on how he helps the team as a batsman and is 'adequate' as a keeper. Which is just unjustifiable. 

As i said, stop beating around the bush and find me a wicket-keeper who debuts in international cricket within 2 seasons of playing against men, never mind just 1. As i said, deKock was in domestic system for YEARS before his international debut, so i fail to find any in Rishab's case, who played 1 year of professional cricket (i.e., in an adult league with a pro contract) and then debuted as a teenage wicketkeeper for national side- in ANY format.

 

So make your case whats so bloody brilliant about Rishab's keeping for him to be the first keeper ever to get this kind of a chance ?

 

I'd rather try Saha/Ojha for T-20 side than Rishab if Dhoni is seen as not adequate. 

 

 

Why do you get hyper without properly reading what the other person has written  ?

 

If  he is at all introduced in the international T20 side....he  can only play as a batsman as Dhoni is still the wicket-keeper....as I have clearly written in my earlier post.

 

Whether he will play or not in T20is....the selectors and the team management will decide.  It hardly matters what you say ....or I  say.

 

On a side note....and NOT commenting about Pant.... if you do not understand that  modern day LOIs require a good keeper who is also a good LOI batsman....then there is no point discussing anything with you.

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2016 by express bowling

[sandeep]

The premature pant-gasming for Pant aside, I definitely support auditioning Dhoni's replacement in T20s.  But the clamoring for Pant is way OTT.  

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

Why do you get hyper without properly reading what the other person has written  ?

 

If  he is at all introduced in the international T20 side....he  can only play as a batsman as Dhoni is still the wicket-keeper....as I have clearly written in my earlier post.

 

Whether he will play or not in T20is....the selectors and the team management will decide.  It hardly matters what you say ....or I  say.

 

On a side note....and NOT commenting about Pant.... if you do not understand that  modern day LOIs require a good keeper who is also a good LOI batsman....then there is no point discussing anything with you.

 

 

 

Good keeper who is a good batsman is a requirement, in THAT order. If modern LoIs were about good batsmen who were good keepers, we'd not have specialist keepers still playing LoI cricket. People like you are spoilt by the LoI keepers like Dhoni or Gilchrist. Don't realize that a LoI keeper who is as good bat as a specialist bat is a once every 20-30 years kind of cricketer, not a 'requirement'. 

A LoI keeper who is 70% the stats of the average LoI specialist bat, is good enough, if their keeping is good enough. Anything on top, is a bonus. But a keeper is keeper first, batsman second.

[vipin]

Let's just have him in the A teams first and see how he does. The 'A' level is high enough to both give him exposure at decently high level, as well as see how he is able to cope at that level.

[express bowling]

 

 

10 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

People like you are spoilt by the LoI keepers like Dhoni or Gilchrist. Don't realize that a LoI keeper who is as good bat as a specialist bat is a once every 20-30 years kind of cricketer, not a 'requirement'. 

A LoI keeper who is 70% the stats of the average LoI specialist bat, is good enough, if their keeping is good enough. Anything on top, is a bonus. But a keeper is keeper first, batsman second.

 

In test matches YES....but we were discussing LOIs here and not test matches.

 

You are factually incorrect here while talking about ODIs.  In the last 15 years we have had 12 keepers who have had averages like top ODI batsmen while playing as wicket-keepers.

 

 

 

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
AB de Villiers (SA)	2007-2015	59	55	13	2963	149	70.54	2941	100.74	10	17	1	218	63
MS Dhoni (Asia/INDIA)	2004-2016	283	246	67	9110	183*	50.89	10259	88.80	9	61	8	705	197
LD Chandimal (SL)	2010-2016	34	32	7	1173	111	46.92	1524	76.96	2	9	0	75	14
Q de Kock (SA)	2013-2016	68	68	4	2847	178	44.48	3002	94.83	11	8	1	324	47
KC Sangakkara (Asia/ICC/SL)	2001-2015	348	329	33	13065	169	44.13	16252	80.39	23	90	13	1282	86
R Dravid (INDIA)	2002-2004	64	56	11	1897	109*	42.15	2655	71.45	2	13	2	152	6
JC Buttler (ENG)	2013-2016	80	68	12	2217	129	39.58	1841	120.42	4	12	6	190	68
BRM Taylor (ZIM)	2006-2015	74	73	9	2475	138	38.67	3145	78.69	3	16	7	201	50
Umar Akmal (PAK)	2010-2015	37	34	7	1005	102*	37.22	1086	92.54	1	7	2	87	22
AC Gilchrist (AUS/ICC)	2002-2008	168	164	6	5771	172	36.52	5619	102.70	10	33	14	743	95
Mohammad Shahzad (AFG)	2009-2016	47	47	2	1592	131*	35.37	1744	91.28	4	6	2	181	32
Sarfraz Ahmed (PAK)	2007-2016	67	52	9	1498	105	34.83	1701	88.06	2	6	1	115	7

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;keeper=1;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=1000;qualval1=runs;spanmax1=09+Nov+2016;spanmin1=09+Nov+2001;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

Right now a hell no.........

What has saha done wrong to be even thrown out. U cant throw someone out like that for some experiment. 

.

Pandya's fast tracking made sense becoz our team needed it and there was no one for other than pandya. 

 

 

[maniac]

5 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Right now a hell no.........

What has saha done wrong to be even thrown out. U cant throw someone out like that for some experiment. 

.

Pandya's fast tracking made sense becoz our team needed it and there was no one for other than pandya. 

 

 

Tes NO....I am sure if Uthappa and co can keep in T20's a 19 year old who has trained since school days to be a keeper can manage....add to that a mercurial talent with the bat.....What keeping credentials did Rahul Dravid have when he was accommodated to the ODI team? the guy kept in SA,Aus and Eng too...Sure Pant can't be worse/.

 

Get him in T20 first......even ODI's if possible

 

Tests I agree...Saha has cemented his spot for now....but he can be an understudy.

[puneet28]

He needs to be drafted to A team rather than Senior team. We all know how Pandya improved after his stint with A team. Even though he is exceptional talent, playing in A team will do wonders for him, plus, guidance of Rahul will be crucial for his development.

[Texan]

8 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

People like you are spoilt by the LoI keepers like Dhoni or Gilchrist. Don't realize that a LoI keeper who is as good bat as a specialist bat is a once every 20-30 years kind of cricketer, not a 'requirement'. 

Not quite true. SL had Sangakkara in the recent past, who could easily hold a position as a batsman. SA have de Kock now and ABDV in the past, both top quality batsmen who can even play as specialist batsmen. NZ had McCullum, who could have played as a batsman alone too. England have Jos Buttler, who would be easily their joint-best batsman along with Root. Pak's Sarfaraz is better than most of their other batsmen. Recent history is littered with examples of keepers who are very competent batsmen.

[Laaloo]

Yes please enough of Dhoni in T20s. He hasnt played any worthwhile innings since 2007 T20 World Cup

[express bowling]

4 hours ago, Texan said:

Not quite true. SL had Sangakkara in the recent past, who could easily hold a position as a batsman. SA have de Kock now and ABDV in the past, both top quality batsmen who can even play as specialist batsmen. NZ had McCullum, who could have played as a batsman alone too. England have Jos Buttler, who would be easily their joint-best batsman along with Root. Pak's Sarfaraz is better than most of their other batsmen. Recent history is littered with examples of keepers who are very competent batsmen.

To add to that....one of  the reasons why teams go for  batsmen-keeper in LOIs is.....there is a restriction on the number of overs that an individual bowler can bowl in LOIs.  Atleast  5 bowling options are needed  to complete the quota of overs.

 

If a batsman-keeper is found then 6 proper batsmen and 5 proper bowlers can be played  ( including a  bowling-allrounders ).  Otherwise, the team has to play with one less batsman or a make-shift 5th bowler.

 

Some people seem to miss this part all-together.

 

As I stated in a list in this thread ....there have been 12 proper batsmen-keeper in the last 15 years in ODIs....for just this reason.

 

Edited November 10, 2016 by express bowling

[tweaker]

Haridwar's 19-year-old cricket sensation Rishabh Pant has always been eyed as one for the future but the way he has performed in the ongoing Ranji Trophy campaign has taken everyone by surprise. The supremely talented Delhi wicketkeeper-batsman impressed at the Under-19 World Cup and proved that he can handle international level bowlers as well with his 40-ball 69-run knock against then table-toppers Gujarat Lions during the 2016 IPL, but it is the way he has matured since that bodes well for the future of Indian cricket. 

 

Pant has been compared to former Indian opener Virender Sehwag due to his swashbuckling style of play as well as with the obvious Delhi connection. His 326-ball triple century against Maharashtra made him the third-youngest Indian and the fourth overall in the list of first-class triple centurions and just a few weeks later, he smashed the record books scoring the fastest ever century in Indian domestic first-class cricket bringing up his three-figure mark from just 48 balls. Scoring big hundreds at a brisk pace – a trait Sehwag mastered during his international career and there is no doubt that Pant has the necessary talent to develop into a future Indian star and with someone like Rahul Dravid grooming him at the Under-19 level at now for the India A side and Delhi Daredevils in the IPL, the future certainly looks bright for Pant. 

[tweaker]

Haridwar's 19-year-old cricket sensation Rishabh Pant has always been eyed as one for the future but the way he has performed in the ongoing Ranji Trophy campaign has taken everyone by surprise. The supremely talented Delhi wicketkeeper-batsman impressed at the Under-19 World Cup and proved that he can handle international level bowlers as well with his 40-ball 69-run knock against then table-toppers Gujarat Lions during the 2016 IPL, but it is the way he has matured since that bodes well for the future of Indian cricket. 

 

Pant has been compared to former Indian opener Virender Sehwag due to his swashbuckling style of play as well as with the obvious Delhi connection. His 326-ball triple century against Maharashtra made him the third-youngest Indian and the fourth overall in the list of first-class triple centurions and just a few weeks later, he smashed the record books scoring the fastest ever century in Indian domestic first-class cricket bringing up his three-figure mark from just 48 balls. Scoring big hundreds at a brisk pace – a trait Sehwag mastered during his international career and there is no doubt that Pant has the necessary talent to develop into a future Indian star and with someone like Rahul Dravid grooming him at the Under-19 level at now for the India A side and Delhi Daredevils in the IPL, the future certainly looks bright for Pant. 

[Vijy]

Should be fast-tracked into A teams, Duleep, Challenger, etc. and the like. Direct jump to int'l cricket won't be easy.