Is Mamta Banerjee's West Bengal becoming a mini Pakistan?

[Vilander]

5 minutes ago, diga said:

I am merely responding to your claims..read your posts again

like what. what is your point? hehe.

 

how is anything you say relevant to my statements on lack of any proof for the ' downward spiral' in TN.

[MechEng]

4 hours ago, Stradlater said:

You are one shameless chutia.

I wonder how could Mods tolerate such language against Hindu Gods.

@Trichromatic

I would like to study some history in detail if I have time some day as to find out how did Bengalis develop such a self defeating attitude. This is literally common with every Bengali intellectual I have met in real life too.

[diga]

6 minutes ago, Vilander said:

dude what is wrong with you seriously. hehe it is publicly listed and traded in BSE - dont confuse between wholly owned subsidiary and a majority shareholding promoter lead publicly traded Indian firm. i am not here to teach you basics, pls. 

You can claim this technicality...but still doesn't change the fact that it's foreign owned

[Vilander]

1 minute ago, diga said:

You can claim this technicality...but still doesn't change the fact that it's foreign owned

ok hehe.

[Vilander]

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

PS: We DO have a 'nation first socialist' party. It even enjoyed the initial platform of being *THE* party of the greatest pure pucca nationalist of the last 100 years from India - Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose. Forward Bloc. Currently has like 1 outta 120 seats in Telengana and 2 outta 300 seats in Bong-land. 
 

this is telling. i am reading about this. I remembered forward bloc  before aifb but never readup.

[Gollum]

5 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Its a fundamental clash of culture for us - we are the 'devi ma' first. nevermind your ram, krishna, shiva, we have and always will celebrate the Durgas, the Kalis, the Saraswatis more than your Janmastami or such. We don't celebrate Dusshera as Ram returning or some nonsense, we celebrate it as Kali Puja. The reason your patit-pawan-siya-ram nonsense doesn't work because we see the 'Sita' archetype as a weak caricature of the Indian feminine, brought to prominent by pre-islamic invaders like the Scythians and Hepthalites who made up the pre-Islamic foreign elites of the North-west, from whom the Rajputs are culturally descended from. 

Dude, Bengal is the land of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. ISKCON (HQ:Mayapur) was founded by a Bengali, there is a rich tradition of Shiva worship too. Now I agree Devi worship enjoys maximum popularity but it co-exists along with worship of other deities. We aren't living in 800 AD where Shaivism, Vaishnavism, Shakti worship etc were confined to specific parts, now because of churning and migration everything is mixed up. Look at South India, all the principal deities are equally important, hell even the Marathi Ganesh has made a grand entry into the land of Karthik in recent times. Same with other regions including Bengal, although I understand some regions have principal deities. Our faith allows for that because it is flexible. We aren't like Muslims, we learn, co-opt and draw inspiration from other systems and give it our own twist....something which even Catholics do well compared to rest of the churches. Hell we have imbibed certain qualities/traditions from Islam and in Bengal there is Bonbibi Goddess worship, the deity is a Muslim !!!!

 

For the greater good both parties must be more sensible and accommodating, ultimately for a better future. The alternative is scary and uncompromising. Allowing some of the Ram-Sita entry to Bengal isn't a threat to the Bengali Hindu culture because many do subscribe to that part of Hinduism. Similarly I am sure BJP isn't averse to Kali/Durga worship....BJP leaders do often visit Kalighat, Dakshineshwar etc and give due respect to 'Devi Ma'. Maybe they need to market it better but I doubt it is a major point of culture clash. Same thing they should try in Tamil Nadu, Ram may not be a popular choice there but Vishnu, Narsimha, Krishna etc will find major acceptance.....after all it has a famous Vaishnavite tradition co-existing with Shaivism and Goddess (Kamakshi, Amman) worship.

 

The only people who deliberately disrespect Hindu deities and traditions are leftists and minorities....BJP is principally opposed to those elements. Best case scenario would have been a Bengali clone of BJP making suitable adjustments to fit into the local culture...eg I am sure no Bengali will like to have a ruling party interfere in diet (non-veg) matters. But we don't have such an arrangement and time is running out fast, BJP needs to come to power in Bengal and hopefully it can tailor itself to best represent the local needs, aspirations and cultural sensitivity. 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Gollum

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, Ranvir said:

As always you throw a hissy fit when someone disagrees with you.

 

Look at Shanghai and compare it to Mumbai, where is the Dharavi equivalent in Shanghai or any other Chinese city?

The Chinese government gets things done, whereas the Indian political parties try to score cheap points in the name of religion, language, caste.

Yep. But the price you pay, is you have no right to anything - not even your property. Fall a-foul of the government, say somehting on the internet they don't like and you disappear, you lose your house, etc etc. Wonder how many of us would pay that price just to live in a highrise. 

2 hours ago, Ranvir said:

 

Freedom can be abused - defecating in public, littering everywhere, breeding like rabbits despite being dirt poor, building slum accommodation.

India is a bloody tip when it comes to cleanliness, sanitation and hygiene, no Indian government has done anything to resolve that problem in the last 70 years, neither have they done anything to control the population which is more than 3 times what it was in 1947. Indian governments have been a total failure. 

Show me one government that has succeeded in controlling their population and that worked - even China rescinded their 1 child policy due to the demographic doomsday that is facing them. So why do you have such impossible standards for democracy ?!

2 hours ago, Ranvir said:

 

Even the industrial revolution in the west was harsh on the workers, it pretty much forced people from rural areas into the big cities to work in factories. However this revolution is what transformed western countries into the countries they are today and China is going through it's own revolution which its citizens are currently or will benefit from.

Err sure. but the west was not harsh on its people by the 19th century (or prior) standards. They were actually the ones with more rights than anyone else, particularly property rights. 

[Muloghonto]

37 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Dude, Bengal is the land of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. ISKCON (HQ:Mayapur) was founded by a Bengali, there is a rich tradition of Shiva worship too. Now I agree Devi worship enjoys maximum popularity but it co-exists along with worship of other deities. We aren't living in 800 AD where Shaivism, Vaishnavism, Shakti worship etc were confined to specific parts, now because of churning and migration everything is mixed up. Look at South India, all the principal deities are equally important, hell even the Marathi Ganesh has made a grand entry into the land of Karthik in recent times. Same with other regions including Bengal, although I understand some regions have principal deities. Our faith allows for that because it is flexible. We aren't like Muslims, we learn, co-opt and draw inspiration from other systems and give it our own twist....something which even Catholics do well compared to rest of the churches. Hell we have imbibed certain qualities/traditions from Islam and in Bengal there is Bonbibi Goddess worship, the deity is a Muslim !!!!

 

For the greater good both parties must be more sensible and accommodating, ultimately for a better future. The alternative is scary and uncompromising. Allowing some of the Ram-Sita entry to Bengal isn't a threat to the Bengali Hindu culture because many do subscribe to that part of Hinduism. Similarly I am sure BJP isn't averse to Kali/Durga worship....BJP leaders do often visit Kalighat, Dakshineshwar etc and give due respect to 'Devi Ma'. Maybe they need to market it better but I doubt it is a major point of culture clash. Same thing they should try in Tamil Nadu, Ram may not be a popular choice there but Vishnu, Narsimha, Krishna etc will find major acceptance.....after all it has a famous Vaishnavite tradition co-existing with Shaivism and Goddess (Kamakshi, Amman) worship.

 

The only people who deliberately disrespect Hindu deities and traditions are leftists and minorities....BJP is principally opposed to those elements. Best case scenario would have been a Bengali clone of BJP making suitable adjustments to fit into the local culture...eg I am sure no Bengali will like to have a ruling party interfere in diet (non-veg) matters. But we don't have such an arrangement and time is running out fast, BJP needs to come to power in Bengal and hopefully it can tailor itself to best represent the local needs, aspirations and cultural sensitivity. 

I don't disagree with any of this. All i am saying is that the Hindi-belt depiction of 'women values' and then holding up the whole 'patit pavan siyaa ram' model does not work in the devi-maa part of India and will never work. Even my grandfather, who quit communism because of its 'destructive nature towards hinduism' and the most practicing Hindu i ever knew used to say ' Sita ke jokhon Ram bodnaam hote dilo, Sita or ponde laat mere chole jaoa ucheet chilo. Erokom nikomma bor karur jano bhaggo te na hoye'. 

 

[Gollum]

26 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

I don't disagree with any of this. All i am saying is that the Hindi-belt depiction of 'women values' and then holding up the whole 'patit pavan siyaa ram' model does not work in the devi-maa part of India and will never work. Even my grandfather, who quit communism because of its 'destructive nature towards hinduism' and the most practicing Hindu i ever knew used to say ' Sita ke jokhon Ram bodnaam hote dilo, Sita or ponde laat mere chole jaoa ucheet chilo. Erokom nikomma bor karur jano bhaggo te na hoye'. 

 

 Seikhane Kali/Durga Ma nishchoy Ram er ponde laat mere dito...bare minimum.

Yes I can see a Bengali having such an opinion, in fact that line of argument is picking up fast among the younger generation across India. Understandably so because Ram was a human avatar and not faultless. Ram can never be a pan-India unifying figure and BJP needs to understand that ASAP. The Ram card will reap fortunes in the Hindi belt but will lose its utility elsewhere, he isn't the numero uno deity in majority regions in the country. He and Sita may be respected but won't be a rallying point. 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Gollum

[Muloghonto]

12 minutes ago, Gollum said:

 Seikhane Kali/Durga Ma nishchoy Ram er ponde laat mere dito...bare minimum.

Yes I can see a Bengali having such an opinion, in fact that line of argument is picking up fast among the younger generation across India. Understandably so because Ram was a human avatar and not faultless. Ram can never be a pan-India unifying figure and BJP needs to understand that ASAP. The Ram card will reap fortunes in the Hindi belt but will lose its utility elsewhere, he isn't the numero uno deity in majority regions in the country. He and Sita may be respected but won't be a rallying point. 

Younger gen ? As in the younger city-dwelling liberals ? Because during my time, this line of thought was the 'acid test' of being a liberal or a hindu, even in Bengal. 

[Yoda-esque]

Hindu activist murdered brutally in Tamil Nadu today
Lenin's statue in thirinalveli
Loyola college's anti Hindu painting exhibition

Yes,the rot has truly started in TN

Sent from my LM-Q710.FG using Tapatalk

[Gollum]

1 hour ago, Yoda-esque said:

Hindu activist murdered brutally in Tamil Nadu today
Lenin's statue in thirinalveli
Loyola college's anti Hindu painting exhibition

Yes,the rot has truly started in TN

Sent from my LM-Q710.FG using Tapatalk
 

The anti-BJP/RSS ones were ok, but some of them targeting the Hindu symbols and deities were pathetic to say the least. 

[Tibarn]

17 hours ago, Gollum said:

 Seikhane Kali/Durga Ma nishchoy Ram er ponde laat mere dito...bare minimum.

Yes I can see a Bengali having such an opinion, in fact that line of argument is picking up fast among the younger generation across India. Understandably so because Ram was a human avatar and not faultless. Ram can never be a pan-India unifying figure and BJP needs to understand that ASAP. The Ram card will reap fortunes in the Hindi belt but will lose its utility elsewhere, he isn't the numero uno deity in majority regions in the country. He and Sita may be respected but won't be a rallying point. 

You'd be surprised...

 

Wait until the end for the Jai Shri Ram 

Yogi's chopper was denied entry into Bengal, so he walked from Jharkhand, and had a pretty sizable crowd. 

 

 

People don't know that during RJB Liberation, the max amount of people there were "South Indian" particularly Telugu. According to the Deputy Director of the IB, V Rajagopal's report on MMJ's speech, the max number of people at the Ayodhya liberation were from Andhra
From his report:

 

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2019 by Tibarn

[Gollum]

@Tibarn I stand by what I said, some states will always have their principal deity and Ram card won't work beyond a point in those areas. Not talking about faith/respect but the emotional attachment of people. BJP needs to be more tactful, not very difficult IMO. 

 

RJM may have had many South Indians but Ayyappa will always be dearer for an average Mallu Hindu, Balaji for Telugus, Karthik for Tamils. This I say despite Amma and Shiv Sena expressing support and sending building construction material for the Ram temple during the movement days... One Jayalalitha or 1 Marathi party can't speak for majority of their state people, want to really rile up the crowd...use Ganpati Bappa Morya or Vel Muruga over there instead of Jai Shree Ram. 

 

And I will wait for election results, these rally sizes won't sway me much. Ask anybody in Bengal, BJP is a long long way from challenging TMC. 30% minority votes plus rural class is a huge votebank which is secured in their kitty. At max BJP may make some mark in a few urban centres with educated middle class and significant non Bengali population...say the Asansol-Burdwan-Durgapur belt. Beyond that, tough to say man, I don't share the optimism of a few here and I am not delusional.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Gollum

[Tibarn]

16 minutes ago, Gollum said:

@Tibarn I stand by what I said, some states will always have their principal deity and Ram card won't work beyond a point in those areas. Not talking about faith/respect but the emotional attachment of people. BJP needs to be more tactful, not very difficult IMO. 

RJM may have had many South Indians but Ayyappa will always be dearer for an average Mallu Hindu, Balaji for Telugus, Karthik for Tamils. This I say despite Amma and Shiv Sena expressing support and sending building construction material for the Ram temple during the movement days... One Jayalalitha or 1 Marathi party can't speak for majority of their state people, want to really rile up the crowd...use Ganpati Bappa Morya or Vel Muruga over there instead of Jai Shree Ram. 

I don't question the concept of "principal deity" in a region or state. The principal deity in Gujarat would either be Krishna or Ranchod-Rai. That didn't change that many villages surrounding mine had "Ek hi nara ek hi naam Jai Shree Ram Jai Shree Ram" reverberating after the BJP swept UP.  Hindu gods aren't competing entities. All three names: Ranchod-Rai, Krishna, and Ram are faces of the same divine. 

 

During the independence movement, I don't doubt much of the same was said about Lokmanya Tilak's efforts to spread Ganesh Chaturthi as a means to galvanize nationalist fervor across India, yet he was able to do it. Even on twitter I have before seen the "Lemurians" lamenting how Ganesh Chaturthi celebrations have started to take hold in TN where they haven't before. There isn't an inherent antagonism between a deity from one region of the country with another which would prevent them from spreading. The antagonism is only among regional chauvinists.

 

I also don't agree with the dividing up and appropriating of certain forms of Hinduism to/by certain regions only. The idea that Mata/Shakti worship is something unique or particular to the Bengal, which is something the aforementioned Swati Sarkar propagates, is the definition of "alternative facts".  Yadavs, who are the dominant caste group in UP, Bihar tend to have Kali as their kuladevi. In Gujarat many have Amba in the same capacity, although my "caste" has Battrakali. The most famous invocation of Mata in history is still Jai Bhavani commonly said by the Maratha army including Shivaji himself, and Shivaji is said to have grown up to stories of Ram and Krishna on Jijabai's lap.  Mata/shakti worship is not inherently antagonistic to Ram worship/celebration. Hindus aren't monotheists who feel there is some competition between them. That antagonism only exists in some peoples minds. 

 

@Moochad thoughts on the Maharahstra mention?

Quote

And I will wait for election results, these rally sizes won't sway me much. Ask anybody in Bengal, BJP is a long long way from challenging TMC. 30% minority votes plus rural class is a huge votebank which is secured in their kitty. At max BJP may make some mark in a few urban centres with educated middle class and significant non Bengali population...say the Asansol-Burdwan-Durgapur belt. Beyond that, tough to say man, I don't share the optimism of a few here and I am not delusional.

The question of winning an election is different. The chances BJP wins WB election is slim, their goal is to become the 2nd largest party and win 10+ LS seats and to cannibalize the INC and Communists... Elections are won largely by man power(in terms of party workers), something the BJP doesn't have in WB anyway. The point of the crowd size was to show that a large # of common Bengalis were shouting Jai Shri Ram, not to read an augury for what happens in the LS or VS elections.   

[vayuu1]

मृत्युंजय, इस घाट में अपना कालकूट भर दे तू आज,

ओ मंगलमय, पूर्ण, सदाशिव, रूद्र-रूप धर ले तू आज!

 

चिर निद्रित भी जाग उठें हम, कर दे तू ऐसी हुँकार ,

मद-मत्तों का मद उतार दे, दुर्धर तेरा दंड प्रहार।

 

हम अन्धें भी देख सकें कुछ, धधका दे प्रलय-ज्वाला

उसमे पड़कर भस्म शेष हो, है जो जड़ जर्जर निस्सार।

 

यह मृत शान्ति असह्य हो उठी, छिन्न इसे कर दे तू आज,

मृत्युंजय इस घाट में अपना कालकूट भर दे तू आज!

 

ओ कठोर, तेरी कठोरता कर दे हमको कुलिश-कठोर,

विचलित कर न सके कोई भी झंझा की दारुण झकझोर।

 

सिर के ऊपर के प्रहार सब सुमन-समूह-समान झड़ें,

पैरों के नीचे के कांटे मृदु-मृणाल से जान पड़ें।

 

नव-भूखंड अमृत के घट-सा दे ऊपर की ओर उछाल,

सागर का अंतस्थल मथकर तेरे विप्लव का भूचाल।

 

जीर्ण शीर्णता के दुर्गों को, कुसंस्कार के स्तूपों को

ढा दे एक साथ ही उठकर दुर्जय, तेरा क्रोध कराल।

 

कुछ भी मूल्य नहीं जीवन का, हो यदि उसके पास न ध्वंस;

ओ कृतांत, हमको भी दे जा निज कृतांतता का कुछ अंश।

 

ओ भैरव, कवि को वाणी का मृदु माधुर्य लजा दे आज;

वंशी के होंठों पर अपना निर्मम शंख बजा दे आज!

 

नभ को छूकर दूर दूर तक गूँज उठे तेरा जय-नाद,

घर के भीतर व्ह्हिपे पड़े जो बाहर निकल पड़ें साह्लाद ।

 

तेरा सुदृढ़ कवच पहनें हम घूम सकें चाहे जिस ओर,

ओ कठोर, तेरी कठोरता कर दे हमको कुलिश-कठोर।

 

ओ दुस्साहस, तेरी दुस्सहस्ता सहज-सहय हमको हो जाए,

तेरे प्रलय-घनों की धरा निर्मल कर हमको धो जाए!

 

ओ कृतांत, हमको भी दे जा निज कृतांतता का कुछ अंश,

नई सृष्टि के नवोल्लास में फ्होत पड़े तेरा विभ्रंश।

 

 

[Moochad]

26 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

I don't question the concept of "principal deity" in a region or state. The principal deity in Gujarat would either be Krishna or Ranchod-Rai. That didn't change that many villages surrounding mine had "Ek hi nara ek hi naam Jai Shree Ram Jai Shree Ram" reverberating after the BJP swept UP.  Hindu gods aren't competing entities. All three names: Ranchod-Rai, Krishna, and Ram are faces of the same divine. 

 

During the independence movement, I don't doubt much of the same was said about Lokmanya Tilak's efforts to spread Ganesh Chaturthi as a means to galvanize nationalist fervor across India, yet he was able to do it. Even on twitter I have before seen the "Lemurians" lamenting how Ganesh Chaturthi celebrations have started to take hold in TN where they haven't before. There isn't an inherent antagonism between a deity from one region of the country with another which would prevent them from spreading. The antagonism is only among regional chauvinists.

 

I also don't agree with the dividing up and appropriating of certain forms of Hinduism to/by certain regions only. The idea that Mata/Shakti worship is something unique or particular to the Bengal, which is something the aforementioned Swati Sarkar propagates, is the definition of "alternative facts".  Yadavs, who are the dominant caste group in UP, Bihar tend to have Kali as their kuladevi. In Gujarat many have Amba in the same capacity, although my "caste" has Battrakali. The most famous invocation of Mata in history is still Jai Bhavani commonly said by the Maratha army including Shivaji himself, and Shivaji is said to have grown up to stories of Ram and Krishna on Jijabai's lap.  Mata/shakti worship is not inherently antagonistic to Ram worship/celebration. Hindus aren't monotheists who feel there is some competition between them. That antagonism only exists in some peoples minds. 

 

@Moochad thoughts on the Maharahstra mention

Well said.

 

I think this is more of a uniquely Bengali thing, if that even, rather than an Hindu thing. There is no question of Ram celebrations in Maharashtra being less than other states.  Ramnavami was a major aspect of the Maratha Empire, Sant Ramdas used such Ramnavami festivals to give the common people the strength to fight the 27 year invasion.  

 

Mata worship is common throughout India. There is no conflict wiht following both Ram and Mata. 

Edited February 7, 2019 by Moochad

[Stradlater]

In my culture , worship of mata is so inherent in our religious customs  that when whole India goes veggie during Navratris , we sacrifice goat on the first day in the Goddess temple.

 

Most of our common greetings to each other invoke mother goddess' name and Kuldevi of each clan occupies a special place in the system of religious beliefs.

 

This appropriation of Goddess Durga and her various forms by Bengalis is frankly quite ridiculous.

[Gollum]

14 minutes ago, Stradlater said:

In my culture , worship of mata is so inherent in our religious customs  that when whole India goes veggie during Navratris , we sacrifice goat on the first day in the Goddess temple.

 

Most of our common greetings to each other invoke mother goddess' name and Kuldevi of each clan occupies a special place in the system of religious beliefs.

 

This appropriation of Goddess Durga and her various forms by Bengalis is frankly quite ridiculous.

And when those posters and disgusting words were used against Goddess Durga in JNU, Bengal was surprisingly mellow. 

[Muloghonto]

22 minutes ago, Stradlater said:

In my culture , worship of mata is so inherent in our religious customs  that when whole India goes veggie during Navratris , we sacrifice goat on the first day in the Goddess temple.

 

Most of our common greetings to each other invoke mother goddess' name and Kuldevi of each clan occupies a special place in the system of religious beliefs.

 

This appropriation of Goddess Durga and her various forms by Bengalis is frankly quite ridiculous.

Mate, you do realize that Durga Puja in Bengal + Bengali community > Durga puja in rest of India combined, for the amount of money, # of idols, etc etc ? 

Durga Puja  is *THE* puja of Bongs,Orya and Assamiya. Just like you guys go ape-$hit over janmastami and in our part of India it is a token celebration, so too is durga puja/navratri outside of eastern India. 

There is no direct clash between devi-ma versus the purushottama angles of Hinduism, which is why it works. But it is categorically IGNORANT to say that devi-maa following outside of eastern India is significantly large ( except for tokenism), just like how Shaivism is a tokenism in the east. 
This is also not 'Bongs vs rest of India' question,since its also the Assamese and the Oryas who are equally entrenched in the Devi maa culture. Heck, Assamiyas have a temple that'd make the ultra-feminists cream their panties ( Kamakhya), where the period is celebrated with great aplomb.