Umesh Yadav needs to skip international 50 overs for a while

[express bowling]

8 minutes ago, Texan said:

At least historically when Bhuvi was picked more consistently in the team, he has shown an ability to be economical and also wicket taking. When has Umesh shown an ability to be economical?

 

Even in the IPL Bhuvi has an average of 23 and an economy rate of 7, while Umesh averages 31 with an economy rate of 8.4.

We are talking ODIs here and not T20s....don't  confuse  formats.  Bhuvi has never shown the ability to pick wickets in ODIs.

 

In T20s, I would pick Bhuvi over Umesh any day....because Bhuvi is able to bowl with more effort when only 4 overs have to be bowled and he is a good T20 bowler.

[Muloghonto]

I've said this before and i will say this again: Umesh is the worst pace bowler option we have currently. 

He sucks with the new ball, he sucks with the old ball. He sucks in India, he sucks overseas. He sucks at keeping the run-rate down, he sucks at picking up wickets often enough to make up for it.

Allround, Umesh is the worst bowler we have amongst pacers.

 

[Texan]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

We are talking ODIs here and not T20s....don't  confuse  formats.  Bhuvi has never shown the ability to pick wickets in ODIs.

 

In T20s, I would pick Bhuvi over Umesh any day....because Bhuvi is able to bowl with more effort when only 4 overs have to be bowled and he is a good T20 bowler.

Where is the evidence of Umesh being economical in ODIs either? 

 

On wicket taking ability, Bhuvi has the ability to take wickets early on, which are more worthy wickets as it slows the tempo of the game for the opponents. Umesh rarely does that. 

[express bowling]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

I've said this before and i will say this again: Umesh is the worst pace bowler option we have currently. 

He sucks with the new ball, he sucks with the old ball. He sucks in India, he sucks overseas. He sucks at keeping the run-rate down, he sucks at picking up wickets often enough to make up for it.

Allround, Umesh is the worst bowler we have amongst pacers.

 

 

So, why are his stats as good or as bad as most of our pacers  ?

 

And why have  Kohli, Kumble, Dhoni, Shastri, Fletcher etc.  (  different people with vast actual experience  )    given him chance after chance  ?

[Muloghonto]

Just now, express bowling said:

 

So, why are his stats as good or as bad as most of our pacers  ?

 

And why have  Kohli, Kumble, Dhoni, Shastri, Fletcher etc.  (  different people with vast actual experience  )    given him chance after chance  ?

They aren't. 

Shami is a better wicket-taker. Bhuvi is more economical. Ishant is more consistent. 

As for why people keep giving him chances, this is not the first time a crappy player has been given too much chances because he shows flashes of brilliance but can never keep it together well enough. Plenty of bowlers in the world who've had the raw pace seduce selectors/coaches enough and not matter to anything.

 

[express bowling]

Just now, Texan said:

Where is the evidence of Umesh being economical in ODIs either? 

 

On wicket taking ability, Bhuvi has the ability to take wickets early on, which are more worthy wickets as it slows the tempo of the game for the opponents. Umesh rarely does that. 

When has Bhuvi taken early wickets in ODIs in the last 2 years  ?

 

Anyway....all this discussion is moot....Bhuvi will be dropped at the first chance by every captain and coach.....even Dhoni preferred old-man Nehra, and rookies Bumrah and Pandya and an extra spinner on green tops in the last Asia Cup.  Even in the World T20, this combination played and not  Bhuvi.  What is the point in backing a bowler whom catains and coaches won't pick with any consistency  ? After all, the main thing is having the confidence of the captain and coach.

[jinjar]

22 minutes ago, fineleg said:

Srinath was FAST and vegetarian. This veg discussion aint valid.

Incorrect, outlier's exists in all facets, but we care more for majority trend, most athletes among all sports consume meat as part of their diet. I respect there personal rules, but don't go BS'ing around that you don't have a handicap when competing with rest of the world at large.

[express bowling]

5 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

They aren't. 

Shami is a better wicket-taker. Bhuvi is more economical. Ishant is more consistent. 

As for why people keep giving him chances, this is not the first time a crappy player has been given too much chances because he shows flashes of brilliance but can never keep it together well enough. Plenty of bowlers in the world who've had the raw pace seduce selectors/coaches enough and not matter to anything.

 

Shami is obviously better than all our pacers in ODIs.  Bumrah has just started his career but doing really well.

 

Apart from that  Bhuvi has the worst bowling average among our ODI pacers.  Umesh, Ishant and Mohit are comparable.

 

 

[gattaca]

@maniac please do the needful. 

[Texan]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

When has Bhuvi taken early wickets in ODIs in the last 2 years  ?

 

Anyway....all this discussion is moot....Bhuvi will be dropped at the first chance by every captain and coach.....even Dhoni preferred old-man Nehra, and rookies Bumrah and Pandya and an extra spinner on green tops in the last Asia Cup.  Even in the World T20, this combination played and not  Bhuvi.  What is the point in backing a bowler whom catains and coaches won't pick with any consistency  ? After all, the main thing is having the confidence of the captain and coach.

Did we win the World T20?

 

This is your default fallback argument because your fundamental argument is weak. You cannot back Umesh Yadav as being economical because he has no zero historical evidence of being that. So you fall back on the argument that team management prefers  him. Well team management also preferred giving chance to a done and dusted Yuvraj Singh to keep playing ODIs and T20s despite a low success rate. Team management also preferred to bring a clearly out of sorts Gautam Gambhir back in the Test setup and how miserably that backfired. So, not all decisions made by team management are correct. 

[Cricketics]

If we are just gong by averages, then players like Sandhu will always get nod ahead of bowlers like Shardul Thakur. Do you want Sandhu than in Indian Cricket? or rather give to Shardul Thakur, who might be a better bet for International Cricket?

 

Binny averages better than Umesh or any bowler, does that mean Binny is a better bowler. This is not even a comparision between Umesh and Bhuvi.

 

It is as actually a comparison of Bhuvi's skills with all other Indian seamers available. Bhuvi along with Shami and Bumrah are three of the best in India. Yes, Bhuvi's average is not right up there but I and like many others here believe that he has the goods to do well. He has been a bit unlucky of a bowler to net get wickets. He has bowled well without luck and at the same time bowled pretty bad. He is not perfect, but it will work for Indian Cricket and will be good for Indian Cricket if he is giving more chances and shown faith towards. We have backed many batsmen who have been really bad in their careers and later proved better once given a long run. We need to do the same this time with a bowler.

 

 

 

 

 

[express bowling]

1 minute ago, Texan said:

Did we win the World T20?

 

This is your default fallback argument because your fundamental argument is weak. You cannot back Umesh Yadav as being economical because he has no zero historical evidence of being that. So you fall back on the argument that team management prefers  him. Well team management also preferred giving chance to a done and dusted Yuvraj Singh to keep playing ODIs and T20s despite a low success rate. Team management also preferred to bring a clearly out of sorts Gautam Gambhir back in the Test setup and how miserably that backfired. So, not all decisions made by team management are correct. 

 

This is the problem with people who don't read.

 

I have been not been backing Umesh in ODIs and want a new pacer ideally.  I am looking for good team India pacers who will actually be played by the team management. You are looking for loopholes to support  Bhuvi....that is the difference.

 

Not all decision by team managements are correct....but  Gambhir got dropped after 2 or 3 games.  Same will happen with Yuvi.  Umesh maybe dropped too....

 

BUT...I  don't see Bhuvi playing with any consistency in  tests or ODis till the time he learns how to hit the deck hard.  That is the main issue.  Floaty bowlers are not preferred by captains and coaches and this will never change.  Even if he does well in a few games, the moment he does badly in two,he will be dropped.  This has happened with all floaty pacers and i don't see this changing.  The team mangement is not wrong on this.

 

If  Bhuvi wants a  more consistent run, he will have to learn to hit the deck hard when needed.....even if he bowls 130 k...it is ok.

[Muloghonto]

22 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Shami is obviously better than all our pacers in ODIs.  Bumrah has just started his career but doing really well.

 

Apart from that  Bhuvi has the worst bowling average among our ODI pacers.  Umesh, Ishant and Mohit are comparable.

 

 

Bhuvi may have worst bowling average than Umesh, but he has vastly superior economy rate.

 

[Cricketics]

14 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

If  Bhuvi wants a  more consistent run, he will have to learn to hit the deck hard when needed.....even if he bowls 130 k...it is ok.

Most overated theory, especially in ODI Cricket. You need skills and not just typical hitting the deck hard will work.

Bhuvi's average has been down, yes, agreed but it is ability to swing and seam the ball along with variations is what makes him a better ODI bowler than most. If we just go by average, even Vinay Kumar averages better than Umesh and many other bowlers in pretty much every format, does that mean he will work better for Indian team? No. Even Binny is ahead in numbers than some other seamers, does that mean he should be playing ahead of Shami and Bumrah etc in the champions trophy? NO.

 

 

I am not comparing Bhuvi with Umesh or anyone. I feel he is ahead than most Indian seamers, but just has been unlucky to not to get enough wickets, which eventually he would and the average will be back in low 30s soon. We should see what a bowler is offering and trying.

 

I mean you know it and many here that Indian Cricket selectors have given long rope to many batsmen who have turned the corner and improved their game after getting a long rope. We shouldn't hesitate to do the same for some of our bowlers. Let's give Bhuvi a long run, and you will see what he is capable of in all the formats.

 

 

[Texan]

8 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

This is the problem with people who don't read.

 

I have been not been backing Umesh in ODIs and want a new pacer ideally.  I am looking for good team India pacers who will actually be played by the team management. You are looking for loopholes to support  Bhuvi....that is the difference.

 

Not all decision by team managements are correct....but  Gambhir got dropped after 2 or 3 games.  Same will happen with Yuvi.  Umesh maybe dropped too....

 

BUT...I  don't see Bhuvi playing with any consistency in  tests or ODis till the time he learns how to hit the deck hard.  That is the main issue.  Floaty bowlers are not preferred by captains and coaches and this will never change.  Even if he does well in a few games, the moment he does badly in two,he will be dropped.  This has happened with all floaty pacers and i don't see this changing.  The team mangement is not wrong on this.

 

If  Bhuvi wants a  more consistent run, he will have to learn to hit the deck hard when needed.....even if he bowls 130 k...it is ok.

No, I am not looking for loopholes to support Bhuv. I actually mentioned that I will take any Tom, Dick or Harry over Umesh today. Perhaps, your snide remark on reading is directed at yourself. 

 

And by the way, Bhuvi is not exactly a floaty bowler. That was Praveen Kumar. bhuv actually relies more on hitting the seam and getting movement. And are you really saying that tHe team management is not wrong in not backing a bowler who performs in most games but may have a one off bad game, instead backing a bowler who has almost never delivered ? 

[Cricketics]

8 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

dont have any problem with bhuvi but we need a culture of bowling quickly ,initially it will be difficult ,even aus used to depend mostly on dibbly dobbly type bowlers for many years but after getting guys like lindwall miller davidson and specially lillie and thompson they developed a culture of quick bowling if we encourage quicker bowlers eventually we will get some who are good allround pacers .

 

also dont forget ind batsmen used to struggle against pacers even in ind conditions forget foreign tours in the past ,it takes time to change the system ,umesh will not be remembered fondly by most ind supporter but he has shown that ind pacers can bowl around 90 mph consistently with quickest ball around 95mph a small but imp step for ind pace bowling.

Totally agreed that we need to develop a culture and we have Players like Bumrah to develop such culture too.

If we need to develop a culture, we should start that by dropping one for another faster one, who might not be as fast as Umesh, but at least fast enough for Int'l cricket. But we have not done that.

 

Not all three seamers have to be like Umesh's speed.

 

We are playing Umesh on regular basis in Test Cricket. But when it comes to ODI cricket, we need to make sure who are our best options. We have tried Umesh for a while, and even though the guy is faster than most, if he does not work, we have to bring a new one instead of waiting for him to do good. We need to give chanceS to all those Ranji prospecs who are also bowling fast, I am talking about all the names which we keep mentioning in the Ranji threads and many here are rightly ranting about how such bowlers are never given chances. Yes, it is hight time to pick those bowlers over  Umesh right now. This is how culture is developed for fast bowling.

 

 

[Cricketics]

Just now, MultiB48 said:

tactically i dont have a problem in dropping umesh but i will be biased towards quicker bowlers even if they get smashed and dont get wickets till our attitude towards quick bowling change and we start producing enough quicks.then you can start looking at who are the best among them.

I am biased for India winning. We gave a chance to Bumrah in ODI's and people were surprised and all of sudden, he is considered as our first tier bowler in ODI cricket. We need to do the same with some other bowlers in our domestic cricket.

[rkt.india]

58 minutes ago, Texan said:

No, I am not looking for loopholes to support Bhuv. I actually mentioned that I will take any Tom, Dick or Harry over Umesh today. Perhaps, your snide remark on reading is directed at yourself. 

 

And by the way, Bhuvi is not exactly a floaty bowler. That was Praveen Kumar. bhuv actually relies more on hitting the seam and getting movement. And are you really saying that tHe team management is not wrong in not backing a bowler who performs in most games but may have a one off bad game, instead backing a bowler who has almost never delivered ? 

If he had performed in most games, he wouldn't have had an average of 38. He also has the worst wickets per match ratio among current pacers. Regarding Umesh being never delivered, even in his last ODI series, he averages 29 and picked Martin Guptil the most dangerous NZ batsman early on thrice in 5 games.

[Mosher]

48 minutes ago, Texan said:

No, I am not looking for loopholes to support Bhuv. I actually mentioned that I will take any Tom, Dick or Harry over Umesh today. Perhaps, your snide remark on reading is directed at yourself. 

 

And by the way, Bhuvi is not exactly a floaty bowler. That was Praveen Kumar. bhuv actually relies more on hitting the seam and getting movement. And are you really saying that tHe team management is not wrong in not backing a bowler who performs in most games but may have a one off bad game, instead backing a bowler who has almost never delivered ? 

Almost never delivered? LOL. Umesh was the highest wicket taker for India in the world cup in Australia! Even in the previous series vs NZ he did "deliver", picked up 8 wickets at an econ. rate of 5.75 consistently providing breakthrough's in his 1st spell. Not great, not poor either. Decent stats of him doing his job. On the basis of which he was selected for this series. But yeah, like many others I too feel Umesh is not the answer in ODI's for India, we have a better pacer in Shami but he is injured. Anyway Umesh wont be in the playing 11 in CT. Bumrah, Shami and Pandya will be the pacers.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Cricketics said:

Most overated theory, especially in ODI Cricket. You need skills and not just typical hitting the deck hard will work.

Bhuvi's average has been down, yes, agreed but it is ability to swing and seam the ball along with variations is what makes him a better ODI bowler than most. If we just go by average, even Vinay Kumar averages better than Umesh and many other bowlers in pretty much every format, does that mean he will work better for Indian team? No. Even Binny is ahead in numbers than some other seamers, does that mean he should be playing ahead of Shami and Bumrah etc in the champions trophy? NO.

 

 

I am not comparing Bhuvi with Umesh or anyone. I feel he is ahead than most Indian seamers, but just has been unlucky to not to get enough wickets, which eventually he would and the average will be back in low 30s soon. We should see what a bowler is offering and trying.

 

I mean you know it and many here that Indian Cricket selectors have given long rope to many batsmen who have turned the corner and improved their game after getting a long rope. We shouldn't hesitate to do the same for some of our bowlers. Let's give Bhuvi a long run, and you will see what he is capable of in all the formats.

 

 

You are assuming that skills and hitting the deck hard are mutually exclusive and that is not the case.  Most top international pacers are skillful and can hit the deck hard when needed ( it is not needed in every ball or even every over in ODIs ).

 

India has produced many Bhuvi-type skillful but floaty medium pacers over the last 35 years but none of them have become strike bowlers in international cricket.  Many of them have looked very good in some innings. Binny, Sandhu,Madan etc. even won us the WC 83 and a test series in England in 1986 but have failed miserably in most places when the ball is not swinging.  Same happened with Debashish  Mohanty. Prabhakar was a very skillful medium pacer, more so than Bhuvi, but was a floaty bowler as well. They all failed. My belief in these sort of seamers is gone.   Every team blew us away with fast bowlers and we were stuck with these skillful medium pacers and never became a top test side till the 2000s when we started producing multiple fast-medium pacers and slowly started improving away from home.

 

Umesh may not be the answer but I want to find new skillful fast bowlers.  Indians are not inclined to bowl with effort and we need role models like Shami doing well....which will inspire the new-gen seamers to bowl with effort , pace as well as skill.  We have started developing a fast bowling culture after decades of cricket and I don't want it destroyed. Our case is very different from the rest of the world who are naturally inclined to bowl quick.

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by express bowling