Countdown to 50th 100 [ Virat Kohli] !!!

[velu]

8 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Kohli raising his one day credentials with  every match.But still some way to go to surpass Sachin & eventually Viv.

do you rate viv > sachin ?  

[putrevus]

He along with Viv can claim greatest odi players, but he is greatest chaser in history period.This guy is just amazing.

[putrevus]

39 minutes ago, New guy said:

Yeah sure, come back when he wins a series in Australia like Sachin did

how many tries did Sachin have to win that tri series and he was absent for most of that series just fired in finals.

[Cricketics]

1 hour ago, New guy said:

Yeah sure, come back when he wins a series in Australia like Sachin did

Gambhir was the highest scorer. FYI.

[Deleted_User_1]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

He along with Viv can claim greatest odi players, but he is greatest chaser in history period.This guy is just amazing.

yes, Viv and Sachin were ATGs, but this guy is clutch in chasing. He has proven enough to me to say he has surpassed them and by the time he ends his career he will be the GOAT. Now if he can translate this to tests as well, then Smith, who?

[rtmohanlal]

1 hour ago, velu said:

do you rate viv > sachin ?  

yes.... definitely

[putrevus]

8 minutes ago, dandaroy said:

yes, Viv and Sachin were ATGs, but this guy is clutch in chasing. He has proven enough to me to say he has surpassed them and by the time he ends his career he will be the GOAT. Now if he can translate this to tests as well, then Smith, who?

I put Viv also a greatest ever as he had an avg of 47 and SR of 90 when others of his were averaging around 35 with SR around 60-70.

 

Kohli what he is doing in chases is just extraordinary.Sachin was never this good in odis especially chases.

Edited February 1, 2018 by putrevus

[putrevus]

What are you talking about , Sachin played with Sehwag, Ganguly and yuvraj for majority of opening career. While I agree Viv never faced his own bowlers


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[Vijy]

On 2/1/2018 at 4:15 PM, BeardedAladdin said:

 

Hate to get into into comparisons, but don't you think that:

 

1. Viv's record is somewhat inflated by the lower standard of bowling he faced? ODI bowling in the 70s and early 80s was absolute crap, amateur level compared to what it was in the 90s and early 2000s. Viv, being west indian, never faced the best ODI bowlers of his era because they were on his own team - Joel garner, holding, marshall, etc. If we're nit-picking, doesn't this count against him somewhat?

 

2. Kohli has a much better team around him than Sachin did. ODI chases are all about partnerships. Sure, he scored 112 today, but he batted well with Rahane. He's had the likes of Gambhir, Rohit, Dhoni, around him. If he gets a hundred, he usually has a sidekick at the other end. Who did Sachin have for support? He had a great opening partner in Ganguly, and a solid (but slower) middle order partner in Dravid, but beyond that, he didn't really have the same quality of support in the 90s.

there were no bouncer restrictions, the pitches were arguably more bowler friendly, the bats were smaller, stadiums were typically larger, etc. VK > Sachin in ODIs I can accept, but VK > Viv is doubtful.

[Vijy]

7 minutes ago, BeardedAladdin said:

But were bowlers better in the 70s and 80s? Your answer doesn't address the question.

 

I'd argue that bowlers today are far more intelligent than bowlers of the 70s and 80s. They have more variations, more pace, better control and superior fitness. They also have to contend with higher scoring rates and fearless batsmen. Yorkers were non existent, slower balls non existent, Spin bowling, non existent. Fielding standards, non existent.

 

I don't get the whole 'boundaries were BIGGER' argument either. How much bigger? If its 10 metres, then its irrelevant. Many of those english stadiums were the same size they are now. Batting techniques are far superior anyway, you think Rohit sharma can't clear an 85 metre boundary?

 

Take viv richard's "greatest" innings as an example (ignore the terrible music). He scored 189 against a bowling attack consisting of superstars such as Pringle, Willis, Botham, Foster, Miller. He's hitting boundaries off good length and leg side filth. Greatest innings of his era, looks pretty mediocre by today's standards.

 

 

bowlers don't need to be "better" in the sense you refer to if pitches, bats, etc are in favour of bowlers. i'd argue that these factors negate any "improvement" bowlers have made in recent times.

as we know, helpful pitches can make o'keeffe look like warne+murali. hence, discounting pitches, bats, lack of bouncer restrictions, etc is a very relevant point IMO. thus, even if viv didn't face "better" bowlers than today, i'd stil. argue it was harder to score runs then compared to now. hence, his combination of 47 avg and 90 SR outdo VK, since VK's avg at time of retirement will not be 56. viv also avgd > 50 at 95 SR in first half of his career.

 

also, 10m does make the diff between getting caught and slamming a 6.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Vijy

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, BeardedAladdin said:

Still not convinced. The quality of batting was complete **** back in those days, and i'd say that was the biggest factor in making bowlers look more accomplished than they were really were. All this other nonsense regarding pitches - which isn't objectively true, imo - and 'bouncers' - as if 'bouncers' were harder to score against than a good yorker or a slower ball, or a spinner - is pointless.

 

The only thing we can objectively say is that 1. fitness has improved, 2. scoring rates have improved, 3. batting, bowling and fielding is greatly evolved since then. And that's before we discuss the 'importance' of limited overs cricket - which is taken more seriously now than it was back then (were players trying as hard?). So i'm very comfortable claiming that today's cricket is of a superior standard.

 

Interesting debate though, there's never any right or wrong answer when comparing players of different eras. Viv richards is easily the greatest of his era, and i agree his stats definitely 'stand out' more than virat kohli

 

Nice of you to mention Warne and Murali as a standard, btw. Only one of the three batsmen mentioned so far actually played those 2 bowlers (and for 10 years). Maybe he's the greatest of all time?

 

 

 

this is the most common theme i always hear, regardless of whether its bradman, viv or sachin. they played in the dark forgotten mists of the past, and hence they must have played in an era of crap bowlers and crap batsmen and inflated their avgs. no doubt people will say the same about smith and kohli 50 yrs from now. i think we'll have to agree to disagree. i will agree that kohli's record for now makes him stand out from his peers in odis and t20s. however, we should wait till the end of his career - punter avgd over 60 at some point, dravid at nearly 58 and sachin at 59.5 in tests. however, they all finished with more moderate stats at retirement.

 

i mentioned warne/murali to mention that o'keeffe looked very threatening on that pune pitch even though he's not as good as them [unless someone thinks otherwise]. i think the pune pitch was a very good demonstration that: (i) helpful bowling conditions can greatly assist bowlers and bring down batsmen avgs, and (ii) the ability to play spin bowling has possibly regressed [certainly not advanced as much as one may expect].

[Jimmy Cliff]

On 2/1/2018 at 11:45 PM, UnknownGenius said:

Much better limited overs player (ODI's and T20's) than Tendulkar

 

India's greatest ODI match winner along with MSD!

Tendulkar has won us more ODIs than both of them put together.

 

 

LINK

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, BeardedAladdin said:

Tendulkar didn't play in a forgotten mist, he played in a highly competitive era of ODI cricket. He also played against bowlers that are widely regarded as the greatest ODI bowlers of all time (mcgrath, waqar younis, warne, murali, etc.). I can't say the same for viv richards, who played ODI cricket in an amateur era - when the format had just begun - without facing high quality one-day bowlers. That's a subjective analysis, but I think its pretty convincing since it takes the evolution of the game into account.

 

I could make a very strong case that kohli's stats are probably even more exceptional than viv richards.

 

If i count Kohli's 2nd innings stats as a separate criteria, then its very easy. Kohli is easily the best 2nd innings batsman in the history of ODI cricket, in terms of average, efficiency, milestones, etc. he has set a new standard for chasing, and everybody else falls a thousand miles behind. He is the the only batsman in the game that actually feels more comfortable facing a target than setting one.

kohli is probably the greatest odi player in bilaterals. however, he'll always be rightfully branded as a choker in the big tournaments - pak CT 2017 was a crowning example, but also Aus WC 2015 and several others. however, there is another thread somewhere on this very same issue. i don't recall him chasing (or setting) anything major in knockouts in odis (t20s being a diff story to some degree) - perhaps you will differ, but the record is there to see

 

a good fraction of tendu's career was still in the era of tuk-tuk odi batting where people were content with 230-250 as a winning total.

[Cricketics]

3 hours ago, Vijy said:

kohli is probably the greatest odi player in bilaterals. however, he'll always be rightfully branded as a choker in the big tournaments - pak CT 2017 was a crowning example, but also Aus WC 2015 and several others. however, there is another thread somewhere on this very same issue. i don't recall him chasing (or setting) anything major in knockouts in odis (t20s being a diff story to some degree) - perhaps you will differ, but the record is there to see

 

a good fraction of tendu's career was still in the era of tuk-tuk odi batting where people were content with 230-250 as a winning total.

Its not called choker. You need stop being so picky that you pick and chose Kohli’s record where India failed and won. 

 

Kohli still has more domiantinf performances in ICC knockouts than games where he has failed.

 

World t20 finals and World t20 semi finals’ highest scorer.

 

World cup final 2011 important 30odd knock p’ship.

 

MVP of the world t20 tournaments not once but twice.

 

 

ICC champions trophy 2013 highest scorer.

 

This is not a peformance of a choker.

 

You are only looking for negative and hence you call him a choker. This is low thinking that you only see world cup 2015 where he he failed.

 

Try to look for positives sometimes and not just negative performances, I am sure you will find more such performances which you can look back and appreciate about Kohli and then can say “Indeed we are lucky to have such guy who perfoms under massive pressure.”

 

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

 

[Vijy]

12 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

Its not called choker. You need stop being so picky that you pick and chose Kohli’s record where India failed and won. 

 

Kohli still has more domiantinf performances in ICC knockouts than games where he has failed.

 

World t20 finals and World t20 semi finals’ highest scorer.

 

World cup final 2011 important 30odd knock p’ship.

 

MVP of the world t20 tournaments not once but twice.

 

 

ICC champions trophy 2013 highest scorer.

 

This is not a peformance of a choker.

 

You are only looking for negative and hence you call him a choker. This is low thinking that you only see world cup 2015 where he he failed.

 

Try to look for positives sometimes and not just negative performances, I am sure you will find more such performances which you can look back and appreciate about Kohli and then can say “Indeed we are lucky to have such guy who perfoms under massive pressure.”

 

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

 

I didn't call him a choker in T20s, since I know very well he has been brilliant in T20s at all stages. I was referring only to ODIs. Yes, there are 2 useful knocks in CT 2013 and WC 2011 but neither of them was the match-defining innings. In contrast, in bilateral series he has many such match-defining knocks when chasing. Hence, until he scores a 100+ knock in SF/F in WC and CT, he can either be called a choker or an under-achiever. If you prefer the second term, that's fine.

[Rasgulla]

13 hours ago, Vijy said:

I didn't call him a choker in T20s, since I know very well he has been brilliant in T20s at all stages. I was referring only to ODIs. Yes, there are 2 useful knocks in CT 2013 and WC 2011 but neither of them was the match-defining innings. In contrast, in bilateral series he has many such match-defining knocks when chasing. Hence, until he scores a 100+ knock in SF/F in WC and CT, he can either be called a choker or an under-achiever. If you prefer the second term, that's fine.

CT 2013 Final it was..Not just any knock. He was the highest scorer of the match.. That was a much needed innings at that point. When did sachin score that much in ICC final ? 

 

He was ICC player of Tournament in 2014 and 2016. Not his fault sachin was never good in T20s. That just makes him even better. How can you be one format choker  Either he is or he ain't.. 

 

 

 

[velu]

bump .. 

 

@rkt.india   after i created his thread he scored 10 centuries in 8 months

 

[maniac]

On 7/8/2017 at 12:15 PM, maniac said:

Countdown to Hattrick 200s  

 

[rtmohanlal]

Going by this rate, Kohli will break Sachin's 100s record with in 2 years  if he remains fit and maintains his current form.

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Going by this rate, Kohli will break Sachin's 100s record with in 2 years  if he remains fit and maintains his current form.

He will need to make 7 ODI 100s per yr to get there in 2 yrs. Not impossible, but seems a bit of a stretch. 3-4 yrs is quite doable though.