What will be role of Pandya in this test series?

[rtmohanlal]

Pandya needs to bat more aggressively with more positive frame of mind. The main culprits are a few pedestrian batters in the team .

Apart from Kohli no one is performing in  the average levels expected of them. Vijay & Rahane are not  performing up to  the expected consistancy levels while Dhawan & Rahul are literally stagnant outside subcontinent.THat's why I do not find it strange at all to play

all the all rounders in the team namely Ashwin,Jadeja,Kuldeep,Pandya & Bhuvi  in all matches.Any way this current batting top six combined  is more or less certain to perform far  below required level.Then playing all all rounders do not yield any lower results, if any adds variety to bowling

[SandeepMotta]

Lot of attitude, new hairstyles and zero performance.

[zen]

20 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Pandya played 1 chancy innings out of 6, IIRC he was even dropped more than once. As  to his 50+ scores, all of them are in Asia bar than 90 and while we are at it check Jadeja batting avg since 2015. As for the X factor - if Pandya cannot take wickets then he has nothing, unless you rate Pandya the bowler higher than India's best rated spinner?

Pandya does not have to play to impress the crowd. Kohli played a chancy inning today too .... 1/6 is not bad in tough conditions for someone who is not a specialist batsman, when specialist batmen struggled on the tour, and when he is on his first tour outside subcon. This is his 2nd tour and has already played a good inning 

 

Wkts, by and large, have to be taken by the 4 specialist bowlers. Much like how bulk of the runs have to be scored by the top 5 .... Pandya can give bowlers the break. If he picks up wkts, it is a bonus. He is still developing as a test bowler. With experience, he can improve .... If Pandya is terribly out of form, others can be considered 

 

As I said, I already have the 5 specialist bat who I judge for consistency. The 4 specialist bowlers whom I would judge for SR. Pandya to me is a cricketer who brings in that x-factor, shows never say die spirit, takes a great catch, impacts a run out, bowls bouncers for e.g. to make things happen, takes initiatives to demolish the bowling attack, etc. 

 

Much like how you are building a portfolio. You are not going to invest everything in either blue chips or IPOs, you would balance your portfolio. Similarly in building high performing teams, you are going to bring in folks with diverse backgrounds  

Edited August 2, 2018 by zen

[R!TTER]

19 hours ago, zen said:

Pandya does not have to play to impress the crowd. Kohli played a chancy inning today too .... 1/6 is not bad in tough conditions for someone who is not a specialist batsman, when specialist batmen struggled on the tour, and when he is on his first tour outside subcon. This is his 2nd tour and has already played a good inning 

 

Wkts, by and large, have to be taken by the 4 specialist bowlers. Much like how bulk of the runs have to be scored by the top 5 .... Pandya can give bowlers the break. If he picks up wkts, it is a bonus. He is still developing as a test bowler. With experience, he can improve .... If Pandya is terribly out of form, others can be considered 

 

As I said, I already have the 5 specialist bat who I judge for consistency. The 4 specialist bowlers whom I would judge for SR. Pandya to me is a cricketer who brings in that x-factor, shows never say die spirit, takes a great catch, impacts a run out, bowls bouncers for e.g. to make things happen, takes initiatives to demolish the bowling attack, etc. 

 

Much like how you are building a portfolio. You are not going to invest everything in either blue chips or IPOs, you would balance your portfolio. Similarly in building high performing teams, you are going to bring in folks with diverse backgrounds  

Lest we've forgotten Stokesy or Rashid, depending on who you'd rate as the fifth bowler. Also I said this earlier, before the game, our pacers rarely win us games away on their own. Spin always plays an integral part in our away wins, so if Pandya doen't get at least 2 wickets per game then he's useless for us in seamer friendly conditions!

 

You're supposedly banking on that invisible X factor, which frankly he hasn't shown in any of the tests he's played. Jadeja is a much better bowler, arguably the same level of batter in tests and similar in fielding, if not better. He has a FC avg of over 40 for a reason, he isn't someone who should be taken lightly.

Edited August 2, 2018 by R!TTER

[coffee_rules]

Ineffective with the ball, hack with a bat. He will be useless in tests. Only because he played a blinder in the first test of SA series, people want him. But he is not a long term utility. Better to opt for additional bowler who can bat a bit (Jadeja or a Nair. We need the fifth bowler in LOIs, but not in tests. If it is a result pitch , go for a specialist bowler, if it is a patta , go for a extra batsman. 

[vvvslaxman]

Irfan pathan for whatever the time he played was a genuine bowler mostly with crucial contribution with bat. Infact he even opened an innings. Came one down. Stonewalled All time great Australia for 4 hours as a 20 year old guy. 

[zen]

9 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Lest we've forgotten Stokesy or Rashid, depending on who you'd rate as the fifth bowler. Also I said this earlier, before the game, our pacers rarely win us games away on their own. Spin always plays an integral part in our away wins, so if Pandya doen't get at least 2 wickets per game then he's useless for us in seamer friendly conditions!

Those kind of metrics come in to play once you have played a reasonable number of games. Below is the scorecard from Eng 1st inning:

 

BOWLING	O	M	R	W	ECON	WD	NB
UT Yadav	17	2	56	1	3.29	0	0
I Sharma	17	1	46	1	2.70	0	0
R Ashwin	26	7	62	4	2.38	0	0
Mohammed Shami	19.4	2	64	3	3.25	0	0
HH Pandya	10	1	46	0	4.60	0

  

He has only bowled like 60 balls. Look at the SR of bowlers who have taken 100 or more wkts in Aus, Eng, NZ and SA:

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
CA Walsh (WI)	1984-2001	57	106	13034	5679	213	7/37	13/55	26.66	2.61	61.1	9	2
CEL Ambrose (WI)	1988-2000	40	76	9764	3794	184	7/25	10/120	20.61	2.33	53.0	10	1
MD Marshall (WI)	1980-1991	31	59	7451	3089	148	7/22	10/92	20.87	2.48	50.3	11	2
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1973-1990	26	46	7488	3119	147	9/52	15/123	21.21	2.49	50.9	16	4
GD McGrath (AUS)	1994-2005	28	54	6751	2920	146	8/38	9/82	20.00	2.59	46.2	11	0
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1985-2001	32	55	8137	3521	146	7/119	11/160	24.11	2.59	55.7	11	3
MA Holding (WI)	1975-1987	31	60	7025	3192	133	8/92	14/149	24.00	2.72	52.8	10	2
SF Barnes (ENG)	1901-1914	17	33	5608	2263	126	9/103	17/159	17.96	2.42	44.5	15	4
J Garner (WI)	1979-1987	26	50	6342	2493	126	6/56	9/108	19.78	2.35	50.3	4	0
Z Khan (INDIA)	2001-2014	30	53	6775	3745	119	5/29	9/134	31.47	3.31	56.9	6	0
DK Lillee (AUS)	1972-1982	21	40	5949	2469	118	7/89	11/123	20.92	2.49	50.4	8	3
N Kapil Dev (INDIA)	1979-1994	35	62	8909	3870	117	8/106	8/109	33.07	2.60	76.1	7	0
Waqar Younis (PAK)	1990-2003	30	51	6111	3294	113	6/78	10/133	29.15	3.23	54.0	6	1
JM Anderson (ENG)	2005-2018	33	60	7744	3977	111	5/43	8/161	35.82	3.08	69.7	3	0
Imran Khan (PAK)	1971-1990	29	46	7240	2894	109	7/40	12/165	26.55	2.39	66.4	8	2
RGD Willis (ENG)	1971-1984	31	61	6459	2776	100	5/32	7/97	27.76	2.57	64.5	4	0

 

 

Our pace bowlers on the list have a SR of 57 and 76. In this game, Ishant and Yadav have a SR of 102 .... So there are variety of factors that determine how many wkts you pick up 

 

 

22 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

You're supposedly banking on that invisible X factor, which frankly he hasn't shown in any of the tests he's played. Jadeja is a much better bowler, arguably the same level of batter in tests and similar in fielding, if not better. He has a FC avg of over 40 for a reason, he isn't someone who should be taken lightly.

 

Jadeja's SR is 102 in Aus, Eng, NZ and SA (not sure if he has played in all these). http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;orderby=bowling_strike_rate;qualmin1=10;qualval1=innings_bowled;team=6;template=results;type=bowling 

 

While his batting avg is 22 with 1 50 in 13 innings

 

Therefore, it is understandable that Pandya gets the opportunity 

 

[R!TTER]

18 hours ago, zen said:

Those kind of metrics come in to play once you have played a reasonable number of games. Below is the scorecard from Eng 1st inning:

 

BOWLING	O	M	R	W	ECON	WD	NB
UT Yadav	17	2	56	1	3.29	0	0
I Sharma	17	1	46	1	2.70	0	0
R Ashwin	26	7	62	4	2.38	0	0
Mohammed Shami	19.4	2	64	3	3.25	0	0
HH Pandya	10	1	46	0	4.60	0

  

He has only bowled like 60 balls. Look at the SR of bowlers who have taken 100 or more wkts in Aus, Eng, NZ and SA:

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
CA Walsh (WI)	1984-2001	57	106	13034	5679	213	7/37	13/55	26.66	2.61	61.1	9	2
CEL Ambrose (WI)	1988-2000	40	76	9764	3794	184	7/25	10/120	20.61	2.33	53.0	10	1
MD Marshall (WI)	1980-1991	31	59	7451	3089	148	7/22	10/92	20.87	2.48	50.3	11	2
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1973-1990	26	46	7488	3119	147	9/52	15/123	21.21	2.49	50.9	16	4
GD McGrath (AUS)	1994-2005	28	54	6751	2920	146	8/38	9/82	20.00	2.59	46.2	11	0
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1985-2001	32	55	8137	3521	146	7/119	11/160	24.11	2.59	55.7	11	3
MA Holding (WI)	1975-1987	31	60	7025	3192	133	8/92	14/149	24.00	2.72	52.8	10	2
SF Barnes (ENG)	1901-1914	17	33	5608	2263	126	9/103	17/159	17.96	2.42	44.5	15	4
J Garner (WI)	1979-1987	26	50	6342	2493	126	6/56	9/108	19.78	2.35	50.3	4	0
Z Khan (INDIA)	2001-2014	30	53	6775	3745	119	5/29	9/134	31.47	3.31	56.9	6	0
DK Lillee (AUS)	1972-1982	21	40	5949	2469	118	7/89	11/123	20.92	2.49	50.4	8	3
N Kapil Dev (INDIA)	1979-1994	35	62	8909	3870	117	8/106	8/109	33.07	2.60	76.1	7	0
Waqar Younis (PAK)	1990-2003	30	51	6111	3294	113	6/78	10/133	29.15	3.23	54.0	6	1
JM Anderson (ENG)	2005-2018	33	60	7744	3977	111	5/43	8/161	35.82	3.08	69.7	3	0
Imran Khan (PAK)	1971-1990	29	46	7240	2894	109	7/40	12/165	26.55	2.39	66.4	8	2
RGD Willis (ENG)	1971-1984	31	61	6459	2776	100	5/32	7/97	27.76	2.57	64.5	4	0

 

 

Our pace bowlers on the list have a SR of 57 and 76. In this game, Ishant and Yadav have a SR of 102 .... So there are variety of factors that determine how many wkts you pick up 

 

 

 

Jadeja's SR is 102 in Aus, Eng, NZ and SA (not sure if he has played in all these). http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;orderby=bowling_strike_rate;qualmin1=10;qualval1=innings_bowled;team=6;template=results;type=bowling 

 

While his batting avg is 22 with 1 50 in 13 innings

 

Therefore, it is understandable that Pandya gets the opportunity 

 

You're seriously expecting him to do better in Eng, when in SA (much better conditions for seamers) he did virtually nothing with the ball? You can't use the 60 ball excuse for that series! The fact is, he isn't scoring runs in tough conditions, away from Asia, he's also not doing much with the ball so he's definitely a liability right now.

 

Jadeja's had a grand total of 2 games after that win at Lords, surely if you're giving Ashwin 7 tests (after Lords) then India's best ranked spinner deserves more games. Also you've conveniently skipped Jadeja's crucial innings lower down the order - Lords vs Eng, Mohali vs SA, same venue vs Eng, Dharamshala vs Aus. Two of them were seamer friendly tracks, while Mohali is generally kinder to pace than spin.

Edited August 2, 2018 by R!TTER

[zen]

27 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

You're seriously expecting him to do better in Eng, when in SA (much better conditions for seamers) he did virtually nothing with the ball. You can't use the 60 ball excuse for that series! The fact is, he isn't scoring runs in tough conditions, away from Aisa, he's also not doing much with the ball so he's definitely a liability right now.

 

Jadeja's had a grand total of 2 games after that win at Lords, surely if you're giving Ashwin 7 tests (after Lords) then India's best ranked spinner also deserves more games. Also you've conveniently skipped Jadeja's crucial innings lower down the order - Lords vs Eng, Mohali vs SA, same venue vs Eng, Dharamshala vs Aus. Two of them were seamer friendly tracks, while Mohali is generally kinder to pace than spin.

He is still developing as a test bowler. If he bowls 30-40 overs per tests, he has a good chance of picking up wkts 

 

Jadeja only has 1 50 in 13 innings in Aus, Eng, NZ and SA .... Pandya has 1 90 and will probably get a couple in this series 

 

If we take overall batting numbers,  Pandya beats Jadeja out in batting with an avg of 36 vs 29 (+24% for Pandya). And with 4 50+ score in 11 innings (36%) vs 8 in 53 (15%) 

 

Our core bowling options, the 4 specialists, are weak. We cannot further dilute the overall strength of our line up by adding another weak bowler in these conditions if he can't bat at Pandya's level. Similarly, we cannot dilute the overall strength of our line up by adding another struggling batsman to the mix .... If/When Bumrah and/or Bhuvi return, our bowling would strengthen, offering more cushion for the flexibility that Pandya provides   

 

 

Edited August 2, 2018 by zen

[R!TTER]

8 minutes ago, zen said:

He is still developing as a test bowler. If he bowls 30-40 overs per tests, he has a good chance of picking up wkts 

 

Jadeja only has 1 50 in 13 innings in Aus, Eng, NZ and SA .... Pandya has 1 90 and will probably get a couple in this series 

 

If we take overall batting numbers,  Pandya beats Jadeja out in batting with an avg of 36 vs 29 (+24% for Pandya). And with 4 50+ score in 11 innings (36%) vs 8 in 53 (15%) 

 

Our core bowling options, the 4 specialist, are weak. We cannot further dilute the overall strength of our line up by adding another weak bowler in these conditions if he can't bat at Pandya's level. Similarly, we cannot dilute the overall strength of our line up by adding another struggling batsman to the mix .... If/When Bumrah and/or Bhuvi return, our bowling would strengthen, offering more cushion for the flexibility that Pandya provides   

 

 

So we'll groom him for the series in Aus by losing this series as well?

 

Pandya also batted at 6/7 vs 8/9 for Jadeja, in case you forgot.

 

I can't say if you're being delusional or what, Jadeja is a better bowler in all conditions than Pandya the batter. You don't become the number 1 test bowler in the world by fluke! In Asia, Jadeja is pretty much Pandya's level wrt batting, away they're equally bad.

 

How hard is this to understand - he doesn't provide any flexibility with his level of batting or bowling, in test atm!

[express bowling]

17 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Our core bowling options, the 4 specialists, are weak.

 

 

 

Both Ashwin and Shami are strong options, whether we consider their overall stats or their form so far in this series.

[zen]

Therefore the question arises, in what conditions someone like Pandya can be replaced? 

 

Scenario A: We have the batting strength of the current squad but our bowling is extremely strong. Say at Aus, Pak or WI level. We have 5 bowlers with overseas SR usually in 55-65 range. In that case, leverage on the bowling to strengthen the side 

 

Scenario B: We have a bowling strength of the current squad. But our batting is extremely strong with Viru, GG, Dravid, Tendulkar, and Laxman as top 5. We have a world class batsmen with great overseas record too in the squad. In that case, leverage on batting to strengthen the side 

 

Scenario C: You have both extremely strong batting and bowling options in the squad. Well, this is a good problem to have. Pick the guys in best form and as per the playing conditions 

 

In the current squad, we have neither extremely strong batting nor bowling. In such a scenario, we have to optimize the 5 specialist batting spots, the 4 specialist bowling spots and the WK spot. With the #7 slot being more suitable for an AR, in this case Pandya

 

 

Edited August 2, 2018 by zen

[zen]

50 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Both Ashwin and Shami are strong options, whether we consider their overall stats or their form so far in this series.

I am referring to having 3-4 strong bowlers in the group to be counted as a strong bowling unit. Not 1-2 strong bowlers in the group. When Bhuvi and Bumrah return, our bowling attack can be considered as strong relatively speaking

Edited August 2, 2018 by zen

[cowboysfan]

Pandya is the most useless player we have produced.he can't bat or bowl to take wickets but acts like he can do both.

[zen]

56 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

So we'll groom him for the series in Aus by losing this series as well?

 

We cannot lose by playing Pandya. We would lose if the 5 specialist batsmen don't perform consistently, the 4 specialist bowlers don't pick up bulk of wkts, and if the WK drops catches. We have more things to worry about than Pandya 

 

The problem is that in many people's mind the likes of Dhawan, Vijay, Rahul, Karthik, Rahane, Ishant, Yadav, etc. are not replaceable. And since they are not performing as per expectations, they focus their attention on a relatively newbie like Pandya, hoping that a replacement would magically hide the shortcomings of others in the 11 .... Playing 5 Ishants vs 4 Ishants does not improve our bowling for example but weaken the overall dynamics of the 11 (laws of diminishing returns) 

 

Quote

 

Pandya also batted at 6/7 vs 8/9 for Jadeja, in case you forgot.

 

Pandya bats higher because he belongs to those positions 

 

 

Quote

 

I can't say if you're being delusional or what, Jadeja is a better bowler in all conditions than Pandya the batter. You don't become the number 1 test bowler in the world by fluke! In Asia, Jadeja is pretty much Pandya's level wrt batting, away they're equally bad

 

 

But we are not looking to dilute our overall strength by playing a so called better bowler but overall just another weak bowling and batting option in these conditions .... Pandya is a better batsman with ability to get big scores relatively speaking .... Someone like Jadeja can compete for one of the 4 bowling slots if conditions are suitable, strengthening the batting and fielding performance relatively for what is expected from 8 to 11 positions 

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2018 by zen

[cowboysfan]

1 hour ago, UnknownGenius said:

Zen is either delusional or just another fanboy

 

Jadeja is better than pandya in test cricket doesn't matter where or against whom

 

 

I would rather play Jaddu or Kuldeep on these kind of wickets,we will have a significantly better chance of winning.

[Khota]

Jadeja or Kuldeep is a much desirable upgrade over this over hyped player.

[rkt.india]

7 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

it is horses for courses. You have to be half useful in one of the department.

And wasn't he useful in batting? That partnership with Kohli kept us in the game. 

[rkt.india]

5 hours ago, cowboysfan said:

Pandya is the most useless player we have produced.he can't bat or bowl to take wickets but acts like he can do both.

So constructed a partnership with Kohli yesterday? Didn't he bat better than several other top order batsmen?

[rkt.india]

People talking about Jadeja batting. Pandya at least scored 22. Jadeja would not have scored 2 in those conditions where ball was moving crazy.