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Ashwin has failed India overseas yet again when it matters

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1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Actually, its more like England has out-batted India against spin on spin-friendly track, yet again.

 

This concept is so alien for Indians to accept that its understandable. For so long we've been kings of spin batting that the whole ' must be great against pace to succeed overseas' has taken away from the one bread & butter of Indian batting lineup: near-invincible against quality spin bowling.

 

But i don't see why this is so shocking, the last 3-4 England-India tours have classically demonstrated that this English batting lineup is significantly better than the Indian lineup at playing spin. 

 

Ashwin didn't get outbowled by Moeen, he just got to feel what Murali/Warne felt against us ( not saying England team currently is as good as Indian team of 90s/2000s against spin, just that Murali/Warne knew what it felt like bowling to a much stronger batting lineup against their specific skills -spin bowling- than their batsmen would do).

 

Lets wait for second innings from Moeen and then decide..hopefully bat till he is bowled..he will not do much. His wickets were soft...given..

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i did not notice anything in the pitch when our team bowled and the bowling was impecabble not anything due to pitch barring jennings dismisssal . so if the pitch stay true to its character tomorrow and our batsman have some semblance of responsibility we should hope to give a good fight. 

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4 hours ago, Vilander said:

Lets wait for second innings from Moeen and then decide..hopefully bat till he is bowled..he will not do much. His wickets were soft...given..

In all probability we might see India getting all-out for 150 the moment Kohli gets out. Moeen would pick lower order , tail 

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He had a big chance to banish the HTB tag, he failed to deliver. Whether he was 100% fit or not, whether English batters showed more application, whether he was unlucky....none of that matters. He failed to deliver a spell that is expected of an experienced strike bowler, EOD. Normally a spin bowler improves as the series progresses, Ashwin is doing the reverse, he thinks he is too intelligent but it ain't so. All he had to do yesterday was bowl 6 conventional off spins at the same spot, is it that complex? And why is his action falling apart through the course of the series if TM thinks he is 100% fit?

 

But what pisses me most is his shot selection against Moeen, considering the match situation and so early in his innings. Like that Kapil shocker which resulted in his ban from Eden 1984 test....but even worse because unlike Kapil, Ashwin played an out of character shot. He needs an extended ban just for that shot, 6 months/1 year whatever but the message need to be delivered if we are to set standards of professionalism. Pandya too deserves a 1 test ban, he is floating way above the ground because of constant pampering, however what he did pales in comparison to what Ashwin did. 

Edited by Gollum

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1 hour ago, Gollum said:

He had a big chance to banish the HTB tag, he failed to deliver. Whether he was 100% fit or not, whether English batters showed more application, whether he was unlucky....none of that matters. He failed to deliver a spell that is expected of an experienced strike bowler, EOD. Normally a spin bowler improves as the series progresses, Ashwin is doing the reverse, he thinks he is too intelligent but it ain't so. All he had to do yesterday was bowl 6 conventional off spins at the same spot, is it that complex? And why is his action falling apart through the course of the series if TM thinks he is 100% fit?

 

But what pisses me most is his shot selection against Moeen, considering the match situation and so early in his innings. Like that Kapil shocker which resulted in his ban from Eden 1984 test....but even worse because unlike Kapil, Ashwin played an out of character shot. He needs an extended ban just for that shot, 6 months/1 year whatever but the message need to be delivered if we are to set standards of professionalism. Pandya too deserves a 1 test ban, he is floating way above the ground because of constant pampering, however what he did pales in comparison to what Ashwin did. 

Joberg

Centurion

Now Southampton

 

In all the 3 innings, he just needed a 3fer (excluding tail) but he couldnt deliver even that. 

 

He is not learning from his mistakes. 

 

He needs to be consistent. 

 

And to be consistent, he needs more practice. 

 

Regardless, from now on India will never trust him as a lone spinner overseas. Maybe 2nd spinner at best.

 

He was unlucky with injury but only has himself to blame for his approach. 

 

Now that he has failed with the ball and his spot is pretty much gone, he will likely bat very well.

 

Edited by sensible-indian

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Ashwin misses his mark at the worst moment

 

How will R Ashwin review his bowling today?

 

Poor? Average? Could have been better? Good is not an option because, even Ashwin would admit, he was not good today. A return of just one wicket in 35 overs supports a good rating not being an option.

 

The conditions could not have been more in favour of spin. The sun was out from ball one and by afternoon some fans were sun bathing. The pitch was bone dry. The footholes could be seen from Mars. England were vulnerable in the mind. They had even opted to protect Joe Root and experiment with Moeen Ali at No. 3, and failed.

 

Ashwin could have not have customised a pitch as good as this one. Yet, significantly so by his high standards, Ashwin struggled. His struggles affected India's position in this match and, probably, even this series.

 

That was not the script handed to the Indians when the day started. Cheteshwar Pujara had swung the momentum by helping India take a small lead on Friday. This morning, speaking to the host broadcaster, Pujara agreed Ashwin would be the key for India. A man of few words, Pujara was not afraid to wage a punt and say Ashwin would easily find wickets.

 

"He will," Pujara said. "With his experience he will pick up a few wickets. He is a clever bowler. He will definitely utilise the rough and there some turn from the centre as well. It is not just the pitch, but the dryness of the pitch which will allow him to spin the ball."

 

Ashwin would have watched earnestly, and with some glee, the way Moeen challenged Pujara by pitching into the footholes. Although Pujara defended him by lunging forward from the crease, the chance of bat-pad or even lbw was in play. In that first over Moeen had landed the ball twice into the footholes. In contrast Ashwin struggled to land the ball twice in succession in the rough during the course of the day, split into two spells.

 

Working out the right pace is the basis to finding rhythm for a spinner. Ashwin tinkered with his speeds, for a long time being in the mid-to-high 50mph mark, at times touching as high as 58mph (93kph). What that meant was even if he landed on the footholes, at this high speed he could not take advantage. Ashwin's average speed usually is around 51mph (82kph), but he could never get it down to that consistently.

 

According to pundits, one of the best ways to take advantage of the rough is to give flight to the ball and pitch it at slower speeds into the rough. That, they point out, allows the ball to turn sharply or jump unpredictably, creating doubt in the batsman's mind. Ashwin did find some turn, but varied his speeds constantly, which possibly meant he did not get enough purchase.

 

Length is another key element for a spinner. Erapalli Prasanna, the former Indian offspinner, would often remark, length is mandatory. If you compared the lengths bowled by Moeen and Ashwin, the one glaring difference concerned the good-length deliveries. Compared to the 61% of deliveries Moeen pitched on a good length yesterday, today Ashwin managed just under 50% (98 out of 210). Ashwin's lengths were otherwise either full length (77) or back-of-length (27) allowing the England batsmen to manoeuvre him quite comfortably.

 

Ashwin, like Pujara reiterated at the end of the day, is a clever bowler. But you get the impression that he tries too hard at times. Despite the sizeable patches of rough on both sides of the pitch, Ashwin failed to hurt the outside edge of the left handers by spinning it from the rough outside their leg stump; the outside edge of the right handers was similarly untroubled. He kept changing his line of delivery from around the stumps to over or the other way round, especially against the left-handers like Keaton Jennings, Ben Stokes and later Sam Curran.

 

Early on Jennings attacked Ashwin by picking up two fours in an over. The first was a reverse sweep. It was a shot that Ashwin had attempted and failed embarrassingly with the previous day. At that point Ashwin had a slip and a leg slip. Soon he would push the leg slip back to short fine leg to get cover. He would reduce the speed and flight the ball more and pitch fuller. He beat Jennings once fair and square. But the pressure was not constant, which allowed the batsman to get away fairly easily.

 

Less than a month ago, Ashwin had troubled England on another hard pitch that did not take much turn, picking up four wickets in the first innings of the Test series. At Edgbaston, Ashwin used a lot of revolutions on the ball and maintained slower speeds and consistent lengths to create the impact. Of course, the pitch was not as slow as the one in Southampton. Still there was enough wear and tear to play an influential hand.

 

Incidentally, if you look at the continent-wide numbers for the average balls Ashwin takes to get his first wicket, Europe (so Tests in England) is the highest. Ashwin takes an average of 45.9 balls to get his first wicket in Europe compared to Africa (26.8), Asia (31.5), the Americas (31.4), and Australia (33.4).

 

Finally, about an hour after the tea break, his first wicket arrived when Ashwin drifted a fuller delivery at nearly 54mph into Stokes, who stayed deep in his crease and edged to Ajinkya Rahane at slip. Ashwin charged towards Kohli at short midwicket and raised both his hands with a big smile, heaving a huge sigh of relief. It was a testing day for him.

 

How much did the absence of Ravindra Jadeja at the other end hurt Ashwin and India? We will never know. But, surely, Jadeja could have perceivably had a bigger impact, as second spinner, than Hardik Pandya has had as a part-time seamer? If Jadeja was present, he could have shared the workload with Ashwin, who delivered 22 overs in an unbroken third spell that spanned the better part of the afternoon sessions. Would Ashwin have been more effective had he got a mini-break earlier in the day?

 

Pujara disagreed when asked if Ashwin had a bad day at work. "I don't think he has bowled badly at all. But yes, the pitch has slowed down a lot and that could be the reason some of his balls didn't go through as much he might have wanted."

 

Nonetheless Ashwin will be disappointed, to say the least, that he could not stand up to deliver telling blows to England and put India in a winning position.

 

So how would Ashwin review his day?

 

Link: http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/24547664/ashwin-misses-mark-worst-moment

 

==============================

 

Pretty much confirmed what I said just after the England innings... I said he’ll fail in the second innings too... that’s exactly what happened...

 

Here at ICF all of you rightly pointed out the technical issues he has and that’s been confirmed by this article...

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At 31-32  spinners are normally at their peak, but ashwin is going in reverse, at this stage you don't expexct him to learn.

All he had to do was pick 2-3 wickets yesterday to provide some respite for pace bowlers but he failed to deliver

In any case I never expected anything from him always thought he is incompetent and a rough track bully.

 

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55 minutes ago, asterix said:

Ashwin misses his mark at the worst moment

So how would Ashwin review his day?

 

Link: http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/24547664/ashwin-misses-mark-worst-moment

Damning and sensible article, You have to grab these opportunities 

 

Ashwin just didn’t do the conventional stuff, be accurate and bowl right length, one can have a bad day, but at a such crucial moment in this 5 match series is most fustrating, and this is Test cricket. plenty of time to rethink and come back stronger instantly unlike ODIs and T20s.

 

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Ashwin just lacks the patience and temperament to bowl 6 deliveries in the same spot. He tries too many things too quickly because he is used to bowling on rank turners at home where he can get wickets quite easily. Also he is too full of himself and thinks he is super smart and that doesnt help matters.

Edited by NareshK

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With every ball by Moeen feels like a nail in Ashwin’s career...Moeen did everything opposite to what Ashwin did on day 3. And results are clear across two innings.

 

Along with the openers, he has been a massive dissapointment on this overseas leg, seven Test matches.

 

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11 hours ago, Frustrated said:

Jadeja should replace Ashwin next match.    Ashwin can score maybe max 25 runs , but can't pick wickets and is easily the worst fielder with negative body langauge.    Jadeja can't be worse.

And Ashwin scores exactly 25 .    :laugh:

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He got injury during Trent bridge test, and at the time, it was said that him playing next test wasnt sure.

I am not ready to believe that He isnt as good as Ali. 

Guy couldnt bowl a proper line. Certainly, he was pushed to play despite injury. 

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When are we going to realize he is just a nobody outside SC?.He is a champion in SC conditions,but then this pitch was conducive to spin.Moeen was just landing the ball into the rough rest did the pitch,why Ashwin has to try variations ,he tends to spray, very much like Umesh when he tries too hard,Nathon Lyon never tries anything other than offspin,Moeen was exactly doing a Lyon here same speed,same trajectory,that undid our already incompetent batsmen

 

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Not many were with me when I suggested Jadeja be tried ahead Ashwin overseas or someone else as Jadeja has more things in him to unsettle other bats instead of bowling same line which Ashwin will do and will get predictable Here is your result after we have lost the series. 

 

I respect Ashwin as he is genious at home and wil always pick him at home without any doubt but being number 1 or 2 at home shouldn’t mean he be selected by default away from home.  We can do these things at times for batsmen but for bowlers it can be tried for one test match at most but not every overseas tour.

 

Play Jadeja or Kuldeep ahead in Australia please now.

 

enough

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On 9/2/2018 at 1:18 AM, Muloghonto said:

Actually, its more like England has out-batted India against spin on spin-friendly track, yet again.

 

This concept is so alien for Indians to accept that its understandable. For so long we've been kings of spin batting that the whole ' must be great against pace to succeed overseas' has taken away from the one bread & butter of Indian batting lineup: near-invincible against quality spin bowling.

 

But i don't see why this is so shocking, the last 3-4 England-India tours have classically demonstrated that this English batting lineup is significantly better than the Indian lineup at playing spin. 

 

Ashwin didn't get outbowled by Moeen, he just got to feel what Murali/Warne felt against us ( not saying England team currently is as good as Indian team of 90s/2000s against spin, just that Murali/Warne knew what it felt like bowling to a much stronger batting lineup against their specific skills -spin bowling- than their batsmen would do).

 

compare bowling of Ashwin and Moeen, you will know what really happened. There was a stark rough patch just outside offfto right handers and i did not see Ashwin hitting that area once. He kept feeling them on pads.

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3 hours ago, Cricketics said:

Not many were with me when I suggested Jadeja be tried ahead Ashwin overseas or someone else as Jadeja has more things in him to unsettle other bats instead of bowling same line which Ashwin will do and will get predictable Here is your result after we have lost the series. 

 

I respect Ashwin as he is genious at home and wil always pick him at home without any doubt but being number 1 or 2 at home shouldn’t mean he be selected by default away from home.  We can do these things at times for batsmen but for bowlers it can be tried for one test match at most but not every overseas tour.

 

Play Jadeja or Kuldeep ahead in Australia please now.

 

enough

Pedantic point: Actually the problem with Ashwin was his lack of consistency, not being able to bowl with "sameness" on a helpful wicket.

Everyone now agrees with the need for a replacement.

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The term success has many fathers and failure is a bastard perfectly applies in this thread. 

 

If people believe Ashwin didn't take wickets yesterday JUST because this was an overseas pitch, they are sadly mistaken. He would have ghanta taken wickets in Asia or WI with the way he bowled in Southampton. He couldn't land 2 balls in a spot. Could hardly keep Buttler on strike let alone threaten him.

 

Ashwin lost us this series. No two ways about it. His lack of consistency has caused all of this.  We can't trust him as the lone spinner anymore.

 

But it's also true he is injured. He simply couldn't make the ball talk like he did in first test. As such he imparts less revs in the ball than Moeen and Lyon, and now with injury, the fizz off the pitch was gone too.

 

There are 3 reasons this fiasco happened:

 

1. Team management's lack of proactive approach. Should have dropped Ashwin (for this test) and picked Jaddu. They criminally under-rate Jaddu who is a wonderful spinner. Before this series started, almost no one in ICF wanted Jaddu in the team except a few which was disappointing to see. Jaddu should have played ALL 4 tests. We would have won Edgbaston and Southampton.

 

2. Ashwin's personal greed to play and change his reputation which is why he probably presented himself to be fitter than he was. 

 

3. Ashwin's arrogance in not realizing even after Centurion screw up (where people were far more sympathetic to him) that CONSISTENCY matters. Even with injury, he could have helped us win had he focused on consistency and practiced well. Even a 3fer would have made us win. All he needed to do was 85 kmph, one place and wickets will tumble. Moeen did that and was rewarded with wickets.

 

It's sad to see a genuine trier destroy his reputation and the dreams of an away series win in one day. But that's life. There are ups and downs.

 

He did prepare well for the series. Simplified his action. Put more body into his deliveries in the first test.

 

But he forgot one thing...to put 6 balls in one spot and wait patiently.

 

And for that error, he will pay a terrible price and rightly so.

Edited by sensible-indian

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Difference between Ashwin and Moeen as per me

 

Moeen - kept it simple and attacked the stumps at the right pace

 

Ashwin - Used his "super smart intellect" and wanted "variation"

 

The problem with Ashwin is that he thinks he is some sort of major philosopher of the game. Jadeja is a Moeen type bowler. Keeps it simple. Maybe thats what India need.

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10 minutes ago, cric_fan said:

Ghar Ka Sher tag justified

@sensible-indian was excited after he took a few wickets in the first Test.

You won't understand the intricacies, bhai.

 

Let's leave it at that. 

 

In the first test, he WAS a champion bowler. Was mostly good in SA too.

 

Then a hip injury derailed everything.

 

Enjoy your sweet victory. 

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1 hour ago, sensible-indian said:

You won't understand the intricacies, bhai.

 

Let's leave it at that. 

 

In the first test, he WAS a champion bowler. Was mostly good in SA too.

 

Then a hip injury derailed everything.

 

Enjoy your sweet victory. 

No one understands the intricacies. Sports are simple. He needs to take wickets and he failed.

He was useless in SA.

He was the worst spinner in CT.

If he had a hip injury and he hid it then he should never ever play for India again for misleading.

how can anyone excuse an overweight person at that level.

He should be out of the team like now.

 

But but but he is very intelligent.:--D

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14 minutes ago, Frustrated said:

Can we import Yashir Shah whenever we tour England ?

No need to import anyone. give local talent a chance rather than giving multiple opportunities to tried and tested failures like Ashwin.

 

But he is very intelligent.

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3 minutes ago, mishra said:

Our problem is preparation and selection. Our bowlers have been brilliant.

There was plenty of preparation.

 

failure 1: Vijay was done and no one realized it.

batting is useless. Need to try others.

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22 minutes ago, Khota said:

No one understands the intricacies. Sports are simple. He needs to take wickets and he failed.

He was useless in SA.

He was the worst spinner in CT.

If he had a hip injury and he hid it then he should never ever play for India again for misleading.

how can anyone excuse an overweight person at that level.

He should be out of the team like now.

 

But but but he is very intelligent.:--D

No disagreeing with it. 

 

At the end of the day, its about deliverables.

 

Ashwin failed. End of the story.

 

But discussions can be nuanced and that's what forums are for. 

 

If you want the usual cookie cutter praise/criticism based on end results, Indian commies are there for you. 

 

Follow them. 

 

But in forums, we dig deep. 

 

We analyze. 

 

We discuss different aspects in depth. 

 

That's what makes it intellectually stimulating. 

 

Support of a player is based on his performance, improvement and potential. 

 

That doesn't mean player will succeed for sure as there are many variables in play (controllable and uncontrollable).

 

You can't control the results.

 

All you can do is make sure you take rational decisions based on the data you hav at a given point of time. 

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4 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

 

No disagreeing with it. 

 

At the end of the day, its about deliverables.

 

Ashwin failed. End of the story.

 

But discussions can be nuanced and that's what forums are for. 

 

If you want the usual cookie cutter praise/criticism based on end results, Indian commies are there for you. 

 

Follow them. 

 

But in forums, we dig deep. 

 

We analyze. 

 

We discuss different aspects in depth. 

 

That's what makes it intellectually stimulating. 

 

Support of a player is based on his performance, improvement and potential. 

 

That doesn't mean player will succeed for sure as there are many variables in play (controllable and uncontrollable).

 

You can't control the results.

 

All you can do is make sure you take rational decisions based on the data you hav at a given point of time. 

I could not have phrased it any better than you did.

 

need to look at all data points and Ashwin has some issues.

 

Jadeja, Chahal and Kuldeep should have been given a chance.

 

I cant believe Moeen out bowled Ashwin.

 

but having said all that it was our batting that was a failure not our bowling.

 

our pace battery more than delivered.

 

End of the day I fault Kohli/Shastri the axis of evil. 

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9 minutes ago, Khota said:

There was plenty of preparation.

 

failure 1: Vijay was done and no one realized it.

batting is useless. Need to try others.

By preparation, I meant ensuring our bowlers like Ashwin, Bhumrah and Bhuvi were fit and got few games in England. Instead we played odis.

For selection, lets start with selection of Coach and captain

 

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9 minutes ago, mishra said:

By preparation, I meant ensuring our bowlers like Ashwin, Bhumrah and Bhuvi were fit and got few games in England. Instead we played odis.

For selection, lets start with selection of Coach and captain

 

Fish rots from head first. It is indeed Kohli and Shastri fault first and foremost.

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