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SecondSlip

Who will be your 4, 5, 6 & 7 moving forward?

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My middle order will be

 

4 Shreyas Iyer

5 Nitish Rana

6 Rishabh Pant

7 Hardik Pandya

 

Nitish Rana is a left hand hard hitting batsman & also could bowl some overs when needed.

But he is not in the selection radar as he is not there in A team.

 

As from the team selected for A team ,management seems to prefer Hanuma Vihari for the middle order berth.Gill plays in top 3 position & Mayank ,Prithvi may be preferred over him.

 

Over the next year in the domestic cricket, I would like to access the performance of Kishan, Rana & Dubey  who can have a good chance to break into middle & late middle order position

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2 hours ago, tweaker said:

My middle order will be

 

4 Shreyas Iyer

5 Nitish Rana

6 Rishabh Pant

7 Hardik Pandya

 

Nitish Rana is a left hand hard hitting batsman & also could bowl some overs when needed.

But he is not in the selection radar as he is not there in A team.

 

As from the team selected for A team ,management seems to prefer Hanuma Vihari for the middle order berth.Gill plays in top 3 position & Mayank ,Prithvi may be preferred over him.

 

Over the next year in the domestic cricket, I would like to access the performance of Kishan, Rana & Dubey  who can have a good chance to break into middle & late middle order position

Agree Nitish Rana is a good hitter & a handy Part time option.  It will be a fearsome middle order.  Should be selected for T20Is first. 

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6 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Agree Nitish Rana is a good hitter & a handy Part time option.  It will be a fearsome middle order.  Should be selected for T20Is first. 

I'm struggling to understand why you would choose nitish rana with a mediocre 38 List-A average and 83 strike rate for number 5.

Vihari has 48 List A average,same strike rate,is already blooded and has shown good temperament.He has also played twice the number of LIST A matches than Rana and averages 10 points more than him.AND he's a better 6th bowler.

Edited by Tendulkar1996

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The problem is most of the good young batsmen i.e KL, Mayank, Gill, Shaw, Iyer are either openers or top order batsmen. They will have to be given sufficient chances in the middle order to get them used to it.

 

4 - Gill / KL Rahul

5 - Shreyas Iyer

6 - Pant

7 - Pandya

 

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U have to find right players and back them for few series 

 

4. Rahul/Shankar/ Gill ( wud like to start with giving rahul some series at 4......if he fails then shankar and if he also fails.....then gill)

5. Shankar/Pant (If Rahul works at 4.....ill have Shankar at 5 or even Pant they can be rotated )

6. Pant 

7. Pandya

 

As much as i want to see Pant n Pandya being promoted....I dont see many viable options for Lower order as of now . I really hope Riyan Parag comes through.....he can be a very good option for 4,5 but not now . Even sanju samson can be a good option but he is not doing enough to get selected 

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1 hour ago, Tendulkar1996 said:

I'm struggling to understand why you would choose nitish rana with a mediocre 38 List-A average and 83 strike rate for number 5.

Vihari has 48 List A average,same strike rate,is already blooded and has shown good temperament.He has also played twice the number of LIST A matches than Rana and averages 10 points more than him.AND he's a better 6th bowler.

Man It's not his fault that he plays his domestic cricket mostly on a graveyard like Kotla..  He is a stroke maker.  If u see closely his batting in IPL u will see he likes ball coming on to the bat.  He is miles better than likes of Jadhav DK. 

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5 hours ago, SecondSlip said:

My Middle Order: 

 

Shubman Gill at #4 

Shreyas Iyer at #5 

Rishabh Pant (WK) at #6 

Hardik Pandya at #7 

 

What will be your middle order fellow ICFers? 

    Only issue is then all top 6 cannot bowl even 1 decent over . You end up with 5 bowlers in every match which is very risky.    

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5 minutes ago, prudent_kreeda said:

    Only issue is then all top 6 cannot bowl even 1 decent over . You end up with 5 bowlers in every match which is very risky.    

This is why Vijay Shankar was part of the team which everyone hater him for ..Poor guy only got few chances in my opinion.

Edited by Stuge

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Just now, prudent_kreeda said:

    Only issue is then all top 6 cannot bowl even 1 decent over . You end up with 5 bowlers in every match which is very risky.    

    One way we have a workaround is to give all opportunity to Hardik to play at 4-5  for some 15 matches and see how he comes up. 

    With his current bowling he is a certinity in 11 and can give you atleast 6-7 overs every match. 

    Guy is not just a hack , has reasonable decent  defence . Now even has shots vs Pace . Only Mindset need to change to play always 15-20 overs. His strike can be still be 100+ even with that mellowed version.  Plus is he can change gears since he can do power hitting.

Then  #7 opens up for an allrounder who can give 4-5-overs minimum but also good batsmen. Preference should be to a spinner .Guys like  Rana, Sundar, Krunal , Abhishesk ( may be after 1 more domestic season) , Dubey  will come into the picture . Whoever has best  batting credentials aming these should be our #7.  

Then you will have 6 bowling options.

Other option is to find someone who can be your top 6 who bowls 4-5-overs . Not many right now. May be Vihari is the one as of now.

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3 minutes ago, prudent_kreeda said:

    One way we have a workaround is to give all opportunity to Hardik to play at 4-5  for some 15 matches and see how he comes up. 

    With his current bowling he is a certinity in 11 and can give you atleast 6-7 overs every match. 

    Guy is not just a hack , has reasonable decent  defence . Now even has shots vs Pace . Only Mindset need to change to play always 15-20 overs. His strike can be still be 100+ even with that mellowed version.  Plus is he can change gears since he can do power hitting.

Then  #7 opens up for an allrounder who can give 4-5-overs minimum but also good batsmen. Preference should be to a spinner .Guys like  Rana, Sundar, Krunal , Abhishesk ( may be after 1 more domestic season) , Dubey  will come into the picture . Whoever has best  batting credentials aming these should be our #7.  

Then you will have 6 bowling options.

Other option is to find someone who can be your top 6 who bowls 4-5-overs . Not many right now. May be Vihari is the one as of now.

       Oh forgot Jaddu . Ready made #7 for the time being if he keeps current form.

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9 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Gill is an opener and batted at #3 for INdia U19.

 

Every good or potentially good batsman, trying to be a top 3 ODI batter,  is what is making our middle order so weak.

 

Gill has batted at No.3 and can easily bat at No.4 too. He has the game to do it.  He plays spinners well and can rotate the strike 

Edited by express bowling

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1 hour ago, SecondSlip said:

Jadeja has batted at #7 for years yet achieved nothing. 

 

Very true ... but the Manjrekar medicine seems to have awakened the triple triple-centurion batting beast, as seen in the SF.   :phehe:

 

We need to see whether it was a flash in the pan performance or there is some genuine mental hurdle crossing. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

Very true ... but the Manjrekar medicine seems to have awakened the triple triple-centurion batting beast, as seen in the SF.   :phehe:

 

We need to see whether it was a flash in the pan performance or there is some genuine mental hurdle crossing. 

 

 

Actually that and also he had time ....he has failed at 7 coz he is not the batsman who can go bang bang form ball -1....he needs time . Even his other good knocks in Odi has come when he had time . As a batsman he wud have done better in Odi's had he batted at 5 but there wud always be better batsman avl then him

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2 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Actually that and also he had time ....he has failed at 7 coz he is not the batsman who can go bang bang form ball -1....he needs time . Even his other good knocks in Odi has come when he had time . As a batsman he wud have done better in Odi's had he batted at 5 but there wud always be better batsman avl then him

 

Let's see. 

 

If we can play Pandya at 6 and Jadeja at 7 then it allows us 6 bowling options,  5 frontline bowlers and the option to play 3 specialist pacers and 2 specialist spinners.

 

With some low key ODI series coming up, we can afford to check if Jadeja has made some progress in this area.

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Just now, express bowling said:

 

Let's see. 

 

If we can play Pandya at 6 and Jadeja at 7 then it allows us 6 bowling options,  5 frontline bowlers and the option to play 3 specialist pacers and 2 specialist spinners.

 

With some low key ODI series coming up, we can afford to check if Jadeja has made some progress in this area.

for me if we have to use jadeja it has to be at 5 but yea their are better batsman then him at 5 thats the problem

I wud stick with shankar. Cant give up on youngsters after just 2 failures....anyways 6th bowler shud be more of a batsman then bowler 

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3 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

I wud stick with shankar. Cant give up on youngsters after just 2 failures....anyways 6th bowler shud be more of a batsman then bowler 

A 28 yrs old youngster! Will be 29 soon. 

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54 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

for me if we have to use jadeja it has to be at 5 but yea their are better batsman then him at 5 thats the problem

 

After the SF, Jadeja is bound to get a few chances at 7 or 8.   I prefer 7.

 

Quote

..anyways 6th bowler shud be more of a batsman then bowler 

 

The 6th bowler would be Pandya, who is more of a batsman than a bowler.  I want him to bat at 6. 

Edited by express bowling

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1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

After the SF, Jadeja is bound to get a few chances at 7 or 8.   I prefer 7.

I feel if he goes at 7 same will happen.....most days he wont get time and his failures wud repeat. I do hope it doesnt happen and he keeps repeating what he did against NZ coz he is a gr8 package 

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

The 6th bowler would be Pandya, who is more of a batsman than a bowler.  I want him at 6. 

In subcontinent pandya shud be 6th bowler but overseas he shud be 5th and his bowling has come a long way 

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I think Indian selection have been too methodical they need to have some creative picks

For next 2 years top 3 of kohli Dhawan Rohit shall continue but mostly restedt

 

These players have to be thrown in and see who is best give everyone 10-15 innings and then select best 4 players and later decide batting order even kohli and Rohit position can be changed for team

Emphasis should be on Stoke makers who can play good cricketing shots and big shots too

 

Shaw

Gill

Pant

Rana

Pandya

Samson (purely on ability) 

Ishan kishan(purely on ability) 

Iyer

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39 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

is that an age of retirement ???

Sachin was a senior to laxman ,dravid, ganguly , kumble and they were same age

Its not about age at international level he is a youngster 

It is usually about age. While a youngsters can be a “seen” as a senior (overachiever) based on international experience (say started out as a teenager), an older player cannot be a youngster based on lack of international experience. Players can make their debut at 30 but are unlikely to be referred as youngsters. Correct term is “new player”. Parthia Shaw, Gill, Pant, etc., are youngsters. Mayank Agarwal (28 yrs old too) is not 

Edited by zen

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12 minutes ago, zen said:

It is usually about age.

 that is an age where batsman generally hits his peak 

Quote

While a youngsters can be a “seen” as a senior based on international experience (say started out as a teenager), an older player cannot be a youngster based on lack of international experience. Players can make their debut at 30 but are unlikely to be referred as youngsters. Correct term is “new player”. Parthia Shaw, Gill, Pant, etc., are youngsters. Mayank Agarwal (28 yrs old too) is not 

watever term u wanna use.....point is u cant give up on a new player in 2 games 

Edited by Ankit_sharma03

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When Dhoni goes, middle order will auto-settle.

 

KL will be asked to go to 4. Pant and Hardik will marshal 5 and 6. Jadeja will get lot of mileage out of his semi-final knock and will probably slot in at number 7. This allows captain to play 4 regular bowlers and rely on Jadeja and Pandya to cover 5th bowler's quota. All of these guys are young enough to go on till the next world cup. There are enough back-up options available to cover all of these slots with Gill, Iyer, Vijay, Ishan, Krunal etc as long as team management and selectors show bit of vision and handle these young players properly.

 

I am not giving up on wrist spinners. They have a huge role to play. Kuldeep needs to get over this slump. He is a reliable fielder and knows how to hold a bat. Chahal is just hopeless. Good bowler but completely useless in other 2 dimensions. Captain shouldn't have to worry about hiding a fielder who is under 30 in this era of competitive cricket.

 

Everybody knew India had serious middle order issues after Yuvi and Raina lost their mojo and Dhoni's technical limitations got severely exposed but India think tank completely muddled the situation and just bet on top 3 bailing India out every time.

 

India will face similar dilemma for the next world cup with the top 3 approaching or passing 35. Kohli is supremely fit but other 2 worry me and given the culture of hero-worship in Indian cricket fraternity, I don't expect selectors to make any bold decisions. Neither Dhawan nor Rohit have a textbook technique and rely greatly on hand-to-eye coordination and brute power. These reflexes begin to slow rapidly as you approach mid 30's.

 

Fast bowling is bit of an unknown. Bumrah is solid. Can Bhuvi and Shami be relied upon to form the core of next world cup's squad? Saini looks promising but hasn't gotten any opportunities. Nobody else has really grabbed my attention from the reserves. Mavi and Nagarkoti are no where on the radar.
 

 

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15 hours ago, SecondSlip said:

My Middle Order: 

 

Shubman Gill at #4 

Shreyas Iyer at #5 

Rishabh Pant (WK) at #6 

Hardik Pandya at #7 

 

What will be your middle order fellow ICFers? 

I want to see Pant opening. I don't feel he has yet the game to play in the middle order.

Hence, my 4-7 is: Kohli (at 4), Iyer at 5, Jadud at 6, Pandya at 7.

Edited by Vijy

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2 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

After the SF, Jadeja is bound to get a few chances at 7 or 8.   I prefer 7.

 

 

The 6th bowler would be Pandya, who is more of a batsman than a bowler.  I want him to bat at 6. 

I reckon that Jaddu doesn't have the power game at 7. IMO a player improves their batting through their capacity to play long innings. We may giggle all we want, but Jaddu has scored triples and several 100s whereas Pandu struggles to score 100s at FC or int'l level even when he has enough overs. Hence, although it's an experiment, I'd rather see Jaddu give a run at 6 (or even 5).

Edited by Vijy

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My lineup will be

4 Kohli

5 Abhishek Sharma (left hand bat, bowl's left arm spin)

6 Pandya

7 Kishan/dube(somehow feel we will here a lot about this kid in the future)

I see 

The top 3 in 

Shaw

Pant 

Gill

I genuinely feel pant will be more dangerous as opener

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4) Shaw

5) Gill

6) Pant

7) Pandya.

 

Shaw and Gill can later move up once Dhawan etc can retire. They have to earn their position by scoring at whatever positions they are alloted. Ganguly, Sehwag all batted at middle order before opening.

 

Iyer can also come in if one of Shaw or Gill play poorly at 4 or 5.

Edited by vijay50

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2 hours ago, vayuu1 said:

My lineup will be

4 Kohli

5 Abhishek Sharma (left hand bat, bowl's left arm spin)

6 Pandya

7 Kishan/dube(somehow feel we will here a lot about this kid in the future)

I see 

The top 3 in 

Shaw

Pant 

Gill

I genuinely feel pant will be more dangerous as opener

too early for abhishek I think. needs to play more domestic and A cricket before making a call on him. He seems more suited for 6 like a raina role.

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7 hours ago, Vijy said:

too early for abhishek I think. needs to play more domestic and A cricket before making a call on him. He seems more suited for 6 like a raina role.

I know  but I feel this kid is more like yuvraj than, Raina, the little I have seen of him suggests that this kid has good technique and power plus looks solid technique wise and good against pace especially short ball, which is the main bane of Raina, this kid is a gun fielder too, don't forget, he is 18 now so by 2023 he will be 22 he can easily give you 3 may be 4 wc  appearance,other guy I would like to see in the Indian setup is manjot  kalra, the kid who scored 100 in u19 final 

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5 minutes ago, vayuu1 said:

I know  but I feel this kid is more like yuvraj than, Raina, the little I have seen of him suggests that this kid has good technique and power plus looks solid technique wise and good against pace especially short ball, which is the main bane of Raina, this kid is a gun fielder too, don't forget, he is 18 now so by 2023 he will be 22 he can easily give you 3 may be 4 wc  appearance,other guy I would like to see in the Indian setup is manjot  kalra, the kid who scored 100 in u19 final 

kalra was very elegant to watch and showed good temperament. I think he is currently suspended/sanctioned for age-related stuff.

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Funny thing is the name of abhishek sharma being raised.This is a 18yr old boy with 13 List A games behind him.

Massive batting average of 16 and even more hilarious bowling average of 75.If it was reverse you would have a point.But of course he 'looked good' in ipl.Pakistani logic.

 

Another is nitish rana with 38 avergae from 40 odd matches at 82 SR.

 

Meanwhile no one talks of

Vihari - 48 average from 70 matches at 83 SR.

 

Edited by Tendulkar1996

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14 minutes ago, Tendulkar1996 said:

Funny thing is the name of abhishek sharma being raised.This is a 18yr old boy with 13 List A games behind him.

Massive batting average of 16 and even more hilarious bowling average of 75.If it was reverse you would have a point.But of course he 'looked good' in ipl.Pakistani logic.

 

Another is nitish rana with 38 avergae from 40 odd matches at 82 SR.

 

Meanwhile no one talks of

Vihari - 48 average from 70 matches at 83 SR.

 

I for one don't think Abhishek or Rana should be in the team in the short run. With that said, Vihari (and I am a fan of him for Tests) does not have the type of ODI game required in this era. He would have been perfect in 90s and early 00s era as a middle-order consolidator who could bowl to some extent. These days what matters more than avg is SR although a minimum cutoff for the former is still reqd (avg of around 40). If you look at Eng team, apart from Root and Bairstow, none avg > 45 but all score at a good SR. What we should be looking for are domestic players with an avg of > 40 and a SR ideally of > 85-90. I have a feeling Vihari will prove to be too much of a tuk-tuker in ODIs. Would rather see Iyer or Gill ahead of Vihari. Iyer may look ugly but he has found ways to score runs. Another possibility is to move an opener to middle order such as Mayank, Shaw, Gaekwad, etc. all of whom have very good avgs or SRs (or both).

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11 minutes ago, Vijy said:

I for one don't think Abhishek or Rana should be in the team in the short run. With that said, Vihari (and I am a fan of him for Tests) does not have the type of ODI game required in this era. He would have been perfect in 90s and early 00s era as a middle-order consolidator who could bowl to some extent. These days what matters more than avg is SR although a minimum cutoff for the former is still reqd (avg of around 40). If you look at Eng team, apart from Root and Bairstow, none avg > 45 but all score at a good SR. What we should be looking for are domestic players with an avg of > 40 and a SR ideally of > 85-90. I have a feeling Vihari will prove to be too much of a tuk-tuker in ODIs. Would rather see Iyer or Gill ahead of Vihari. Iyer may look ugly but he has found ways to score runs. Another possibility is to move an opener to middle order such as Mayank, Shaw, Gaekwad, etc. all of whom have very good avgs or SRs (or both).

Absolutely Vihari is a defensive batsman more likely.  Let him play tests as of now. Currently Abhishek Sharma & Nitish Rana r the only left handed guys who can bowl part time left arm spin & bat at higher strike rate.  Rana is only 24 I think so he must be given a go in T20s first. 

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