SPEED & PERFORMANCE OF FAST BOWLERS N TRUNDLERS IN 2017 IPL

[Texan]

10 hours ago, express bowling said:

So, you basically believe in criticizing others without doing the thing yourself.

 

 

If they are not being fair, I bring it to the table. By the way, check out what Akram has to actually say about fast bowling and swing and stop attributing false quotes to past greats. 

[express bowling]

7 minutes ago, Texan said:

If they are not being fair, I bring it to the table. By the way, check out what Akram has to actually say about fast bowling and swing and stop attributing false quotes to past greats. 

Where have I quoted Akram ?

 

Stop attributing false quotes to me.

 

p.s - You are mixing up what being fair is. People who love speed will discuss speed. It is a matter of personal like. No one is asking you to discuss speeds.

Edited May 8, 2017 by express bowling

[Texan]

11 hours ago, express bowling said:

Where have I quoted Akram ?

 

Stop attributing false quotes to me.

 

p.s - You are mixing up what being fair is. People who love speed will discuss speed. It is a matter of personal like. No one is asking you to discuss speeds.

You along with some 10 year old kids here keep claiming that past greats emphasize that pace is everything, cannot be taught blah blah blah. I think you will agree that Wasim Akram is definitely one of the greatest fast bowlers we have seen in the last 30 years. His views are quite diametrically opposite and he insists that young bowlers should first concentrate on swing and not pace. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Texan

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, Texan said:

You along with some 10 year old kids here keep claiming that past greats emphasize that pace is everything, cannot be taught blah blah blah. I think you will agree that Wasim Akram is definitely one of the greatest fast bowlers we have seen in the last 30 years. His views are quite diametrically opposite and he insists that young bowlers should first concentrate on swing and not pace. 

 

Find me a post of mine where I have said that any past great has said that pace is EVERYTHING  ?

 

You are accusing someone baselessly without evidence and that is a stupid thing to do.

 

What I usually say is that most past great fast bowlers generally say that pace is very  important. It is one of the important qualities to have but hardly the only one. Accuracy, bounce, swing, reverse swing, seam movement, ability to set up batsmen etc. are equally important qualities past greats look for in pacers.

 

p.s - It seems to me that Akram is talking about young developing pacers here and not international pacers who have been playing for their country for some time. 

 

We talk about international pacers who are expected to have decent pace along with decent skills when they start playing for their country.

 

Edited May 9, 2017 by express bowling

[rkt.india]

12 hours ago, Texan said:

If they are not being fair, I bring it to the table. By the way, check out what Akram has to actually say about fast bowling and swing and stop attributing false quotes to past greats. 

People will always have their favorites and their bias. You have your favorites and you are free to post about them. You cant force others to post about them.

[Ankit_sharma03]

6 hours ago, Texan said:

You along with some 10 year old kids here keep claiming that past greats emphasize that pace is everything, cannot be taught blah blah blah. I think you will agree that Wasim Akram is definitely one of the greatest fast bowlers we have seen in the last 30 years. His views are quite diametrically opposite and he insists that young bowlers should first concentrate on swing and not pace. 

No akram always says concenrate on ur natural swing and master it 1st before u try other thing and loose both of it

He has always said try to bowl fast which his guru imran said to. When akram was bowlin a lot of wides in 1992 wc, imran said - i want wasim to just bowl fast thats it . 

 

Ull hear most pak player saying they dnt even take bowlers who bowl below 140k seriously. 

[speedster]

Bowlers with genuine pace have been rare in India (atleast till recently) so it is natural that when one emerges, they become the favourites of fast bowling enthusiasts. I don't think anyone is claiming that they are world beaters and I agree that there is more patience shown towards these bowlers than with trundlers but that is because they have the potential to perform for India in internationals. Unadkat or Kulkarni  or Aravind don't seem like bowlers who will win matches for India at that level, this is borne out by their performances or the lack of it , in the opportunities that they have got, so I guess that is why there is less excitement when they deliver ( not including bhuvi here as I feel that he now has the right ingredients to be quite good)

[speedheat]

Umesh 146kph

[speedheat]

Sharp bouncer by umesh to vhora

139kph

[Vilander]

On 5/5/2017 at 5:44 PM, Ultimate_Game said:

I'm sorry but Ishant, Siraj, Rajpoot, Sangwan and Umesh are better short format bowlers than Sandeep on what basis? 

they are phast. how many times should i tell you..

[express bowling]

Rajpoot bowled very well in the last match but underbowled by Gambhir this match.

 

Has bowled just 1 over so far and only  2 more overs are left.

[speedheat]

Woakes is very very underrated bowler bowls with brisk pace nice seam moment and bounce too, silently does his job

[express bowling]

Excellent last over by Rajpoot.

 

Only 7 runs off the bat.

 

One good yorker and 2 good slower balls.

 

He also bowled a fast bouncer to Saha earlier in the match which he top edged.

 

 

[vishalvirsingh]

Sandeeep Yorkers were too accurate today.

Guy is seriously talented with mastery over his line n length.

Just that too slow for international cricket.

[speedheat]

wonderful exhibitions of slower ones and knuckle balls in the death overs by mohit yesterday one of the best I have seen

[Texan]

19 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Find me a post of mine where I have said that any past great has said that pace is EVERYTHING  ?

 

You are accusing someone baselessly without evidence and that is a stupid thing to do.

 

What I usually say is that most past great fast bowlers generally say that pace is very  important. It is one of the important qualities to have but hardly the only one. Accuracy, bounce, swing, reverse swing, seam movement, ability to set up batsmen etc. are equally important qualities past greats look for in pacers.

 

p.s - It seems to me that Akram is talking about young developing pacers here and not international pacers who have been playing for their country for some time. 

 

We talk about international pacers who are expected to have decent pace along with decent skills when they start playing for their country.

 

Akram is talking about Irfan Pathan who played for India in about 30 Tests, so decent enough time. Early on, he generated prodigious swing, which enabled him to take a hattrick in the first over of a Test match for the first time ever and only time in history of Test cricket (I believe Zoysa hattrick was not in first over of the Test). Akram is specifically saying that misguided advice on increasing pace by possibly showing his speed gun rating played a negative role in his career development and that Pathan actually regressed because of this advice. There is no doubt that speed guns make for compelling TV viewing and that watching your favorite bowler hit 140k gives a nice kick to many cricket watchers on TV. But as Akram mentions and I keep saying here, using speed gun analysis to actually determine and qualify players is unhealthy. Even I love watching on TV what speed got registered when the ball was bowled. But that doesn't mean that those that don't register sufficiently are not good bowlers and that they should be asked to become more pacy. Sandeep Sharma, for example, is showing to be a fine bowler. Even Praveen Kumar was devastating when he got his swing right. So it is important to emphasize swing & seam first and then pace and not the other way round. As Akram says, it is swing that is going to get you wickets. 

[Ultimate_Game]

1 hour ago, Texan said:

Akram is talking about Irfan Pathan who played for India in about 30 Tests, so decent enough time. Early on, he generated prodigious swing, which enabled him to take a hattrick in the first over of a Test match for the first time ever and only time in history of Test cricket (I believe Zoysa hattrick was not in first over of the Test). Akram is specifically saying that misguided advice on increasing pace by possibly showing his speed gun rating played a negative role in his career development and that Pathan actually regressed because of this advice. There is no doubt that speed guns make for compelling TV viewing and that watching your favorite bowler hit 140k gives a nice kick to many cricket watchers on TV. But as Akram mentions and I keep saying here, using speed gun analysis to actually determine and qualify players is unhealthy. Even I love watching on TV what speed got registered when the ball was bowled. But that doesn't mean that those that don't register sufficiently are not good bowlers and that they should be asked to become more pacy. Sandeep Sharma, for example, is showing to be a fine bowler. Even Praveen Kumar was devastating when he got his swing right. So it is important to emphasize swing & seam first and then pace and not the other way round. As Akram says, it is swing that is going to get you wickets. 

Swing and control at 130 kph is way better than wayward or no movement pace at 140 kph. Swing and control gets you wkts, not pace with no control or movement.

[Ultimate_Game]

8 hours ago, vishalvirsingh said:

Sandeeep Yorkers were too accurate today.

Guy is seriously talented with mastery over his line n length.

Just that too slow for international cricket.

I believe Lynn, Woakes and Pathan are intl quality. So were Gayle, Kohli and ABDV the previous match and I'm sure Sandeep has gone against intl batsmen for the last 3-4 IPLs and done pretty well.

[express bowling]

4 hours ago, Texan said:

Akram is talking about Irfan Pathan who played for India in about 30 Tests, so decent enough time. Early on, he generated prodigious swing, which enabled him to take a hattrick in the first over of a Test match for the first time ever and only time in history of Test cricket (I believe Zoysa hattrick was not in first over of the Test). Akram is specifically saying that misguided advice on increasing pace by possibly showing his speed gun rating played a negative role in his career development and that Pathan actually regressed because of this advice. There is no doubt that speed guns make for compelling TV viewing and that watching your favorite bowler hit 140k gives a nice kick to many cricket watchers on TV. But as Akram mentions and I keep saying here, using speed gun analysis to actually determine and qualify players is unhealthy. Even I love watching on TV what speed got registered when the ball was bowled. But that doesn't mean that those that don't register sufficiently are not good bowlers and that they should be asked to become more pacy. Sandeep Sharma, for example, is showing to be a fine bowler. Even Praveen Kumar was devastating when he got his swing right.

Here is a list of pace bowlers in the last 50 years who have taken 200 wickets or more .... listed by best  bowling averages.  I don't see a single medium-paced swing bowler there. 

 

All of them were either fast or fast-medium.  A high percentage got steep bounce.  And....about half the bowlers were seam bowlers and not swing bowlers.

 

Another important point is that.... India  plays more than 60% of test matches in Asia where conventional swing is not available with any regularity. Pacers have to rely on reverse swing which is more effective at high pace. This is why Asian teams, more than the other ones, require quick bowlers.

 

Objective should be to pick pacers who combine skills + pace or bounce if we want to find international quality pace bowlers with regularity.

 

 

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
MD Marshall (WI)	1978-1991	81	151	17584	7876	376	7/22	11/89	20.94	2.68	46.7	22	4
J Garner (WI)	1977-1987	58	111	13169	5433	259	6/56	9/108	20.97	2.47	50.8	7	0
CEL Ambrose (WI)	1988-2000	98	179	22103	8501	405	8/45	11/84	20.99	2.30	54.5	22	3
GD McGrath (AUS)	1993-2007	124	243	29248	12186	563	8/24	10/27	21.64	2.49	51.9	29	3
AA Donald (SA)	1992-2002	72	129	15519	7344	330	8/71	12/139	22.25	2.83	47.0	20	3
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1973-1990	86	150	21918	9611	431	9/52	15/123	22.29	2.63	50.8	36	9
DW Steyn (SA)	2004-2016	85	156	17286	9303	417	7/51	11/60	22.30	3.22	41.4	26	5
Imran Khan (PAK)	1971-1992	88	142	19458	8258	362	8/58	14/116	22.81	2.54	53.7	23	6
SM Pollock (SA)	1995-2008	108	202	24353	9733	421	7/87	10/147	23.11	2.39	57.8	16	1
Waqar Younis (PAK)	1989-2003	87	154	16224	8788	373	7/76	13/135	23.56	3.25	43.4	22	5
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1985-2002	104	181	22627	9779	414	7/119	11/110	23.62	2.59	54.6	25	5
MA Holding (WI)	1975-1987	60	113	12680	5898	249	8/92	14/149	23.68	2.79	50.9	13	2
DK Lillee (AUS)	1971-1984	70	132	18467	8493	355	7/83	11/123	23.92	2.75	52.0	23	7
CA Walsh (WI)	1984-2001	132	242	30019	12688	519	7/37	13/55	24.44	2.53	57.8	22	3
RGD Willis (ENG)	1971-1984	90	165	17357	8190	325	8/43	9/92	25.20	2.83	53.4	16	0
AME Roberts (WI)	1974-1983	47	90	11135	5174	202	7/54	12/121	25.61	2.78	55.1	11	2
JN Gillespie (AUS)	1996-2006	71	137	14234	6770	259	7/37	9/80	26.13	2.85	54.9	8	0
JR Thomson (AUS)	1972-1985	51	90	10535	5601	200	6/46	9/105	28.00	3.18	52.6	8	0
HH Streak (ZIM)	1993-2005	65	102	13559	6079	216	6/73	9/72	28.14	2.69	62.7	7	0
MG Hughes (AUS)	1985-1994	53	97	12285	6017	212	8/87	13/217	28.38	2.93	57.9	7	1
D Gough (ENG)	1994-2003	58	95	11821	6503	229	6/42	9/92	28.39	3.30	51.6	9	0
IT Botham (ENG)	1977-1992	102	168	21815	10878	383	8/34	13/106	28.40	2.99	56.9	27	4
MG Johnson (AUS)	2007-2015	73	140	16001	8891	313	8/61	12/127	28.40	3.33	51.1	12	3
JM Anderson (ENG)	2003-2016	122	228	26840	13310	467	7/43	11/71	28.50	2.97	57.4	21	3
SCJ Broad (ENG)	2007-2016	102	186	21000	10503	368	8/15	11/121	28.54	3.00	57.0	15	2
CJ McDermott (AUS)	1984-1996	71	124	16586	8332	291	8/97	11/157	28.63	3.01	56.9	14	2
M Ntini (SA)	1998-2009	101	190	20834	11242	390	7/37	13/132	28.82	3.23	53.4	18	4
M Morkel (SA)	2006-2017	74	136	14175	7392	253	6/23	8/196	29.21	3.12	56.0	6	0
CL Cairns (NZ)	1989-2004	62	104	11698	6410	218	7/27	10/100	29.40	3.28	53.6	13	1

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=200;qualval1=wickets;spanmin1=01+jAN+1967;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

Quote

So it is important to emphasize swing & seam first and then pace and not the other way round.

We are not talking about developing bowlers here who will learn this first and that later.

 

We are discussing  pacers who are playing or about to play  international cricket and should have both decent pace and decent skills.

 

So, it is important to stress on BOTH  pace / bounce  and swing / seam.   I am not happy with this either this or that approach.

 

Quote

As Akram says, it is swing that is going to get you wickets. 

As I  showcased to you by the above data... just swing without pace does not produce great bowlers.   Pakistan themselves never pick medium-paced swing bowlers by choice.

 

Also, there are lots of top pacers like McGrath, Ambrose, Holding, Garner etc. who rarely swung the ball but still got loads of wickets.  Not all pacers are swing bowlers.
 

Edited May 10, 2017 by express bowling

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said:

Swing and control at 130 kph is way better than wayward or no movement pace at 140 kph. Swing and control gets you wkts, not pace with no control or movement.

 

Why is it pace vs control and movement    ?

 

We need pacers who combine pace with control and movement .   Like Shami and Srinath.   Like Kapil between 1978 to 1985.    Like Umesh in the last 2 test series.