Sachin Tendulkar v Virat Kohli - who is better ODI batsman?

[rkt.india]

9 hours ago, putrevus said:

I told you I dont want to talk to you and I am done with you.Please don't quote my posts with your half assed nonsense.

 

98 in 2003 was not scored against superior attack period.One more time I repeat in case you don't get it. Sachin is no way better than Kohli as an odi player.Kohli will score better than Sachin against any attack which Sachin faced at any point in his career. Kohli is already better than Sachin ever was even if he does not play a single odi from here onwards.

 

There is nothing which Sachin did is better than Kohli.

same guys argue about Failures of 2011 and 12 England Aus tours to ageing batting but are adamant to not expect that Akram and Waqar also ageing in 2003 and nowhere the force they used to be at their prime.  

[rkt.india]

7 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

largely irrelevant. 

a) too small a sample size for some of those claims ( less than 5% sample space)

b) not many of his era are much higher, either. 

c) facing superior attacks does not override who did what in which country on a random basis, either. I consider facing McWarne + Gillespie even on roadiest of road wickets as a greater test of batsmanship than facing the Bong attack on a raging turner/bouncy/seaming wicket or whatever.

 

it is all about conditions.  Bowlers' quality weigh very less. On flat pitches, even the best will go for runs whoever it is.

[Jimmy Cliff]

22 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

IF SRT made his debut earlier then Kohli too made his debut at 19

Haan toh uska kya?

[Stan AF]

The competitiveness of ODI tournaments have largely gone down. This is a fact. Due to various reasons that are already discussed.

 

No more quadilaterals and competitive triangulars with teams playing each other twice and thrice and then going through the finals. The main reason why you see india doing well in bilaterals(IMO, the bane of the ODI format) and not so well in true test of the character ICC tourneys in the last 5 years is because of this.

 

 

 

 

[Stan AF]

Australians stopping the CB series was a death knell to this format. IMO, that was a watershed event held every year. The sport truly misses that event.

[Global.Baba]

3 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

Australians stopping the CB series was a death knell to this format. IMO, that was a watershed event held every year. The sport truly misses that event.

Agreed. That was an end of the era. Those B&H and CB series were way better in quality both on-field and in terms of coverage than Asia cups and CT

[Stan AF]

Bigger grounds, Fast bouncy tracks, Value for spinners to toss up the ball and inviting the batsmen to hit em.Good crowds. It had everything.

[Global.Baba]

I personally like ODIs were a team scores 250 odd and the other team builds innings and the game goes down to the wire.

 

However these new odi rules take such games out of the equation.

 

Add to that every game being a D/n brings in the dew factor as well.

 

That is why odi cricket has become too one dimensional ,that is why there is a reason for people who saw both eras  rating Sachin, Lara and Ponting over the likes of Kohli,Rohit and ABDV.

 

Sure Guys like Kohli,ABDV and Rohit standout for some crazy accomplishments that puts them over the peers which even brings them in the debate.

 

As a guy who saw both eras it is a no contest. Sachin ,Lara etc are way ahead 

[Stan AF]

2 new balls is absolutely bad for the sport. Not enough wear and tear on the ball for spinners to make enough turn. Plus no reverse swing. No wonder we see 400 totals these days.

[Muloghonto]

44 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

it is all about conditions.  Bowlers' quality weigh very less. On flat pitches, even the best will go for runs whoever it is.

false.

Even on the flattest pitches, some of the ATG attacks Tendy faced are harder than facing most of the attacks today on juicy pitches of their choosing. 

You are deluded if you think facing McWarne or Wasim-Waqar-Saqlain-Razzaq on a flat patta is easier than facing the current Aussie attack on a pitch of their choosing.

 

bowler's quality is the dominant factor, by most metrics, by most players and by most analysts themselves.  

[Muloghonto]

57 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

same guys argue about Failures of 2011 and 12 England Aus tours to ageing batting but are adamant to not expect that Akram and Waqar also ageing in 2003 and nowhere the force they used to be at their prime.  

you expose your complete lack of watching cricket through the 90s. 2003 is not the first time Tendy faced and dominated the two Ws. 

[rtmohanlal]

10 hours ago, rkt.india said:

same guys argue about Failures of 2011 and 12 England Aus tours to ageing batting but are adamant to not expect that Akram and Waqar also ageing in 2003 and nowhere the force they used to be at their prime.  

yes ... that arguement is valid  because by the time Sachin played those 2011 ENG  tour  Sachin was  38+ of age.A batsman's failure needs to be  evaluated also from the angle that it takes only a single delivery for the batsman to discontinue for the rest of the inns.

But with Wasim & Waqar,   them  being bowlers  even if they were hit for a 6(the worst possible result in a single delivery) , they could still come back and bowl brilliantly and cause trouble for Indian batsmen for the rest of the inns. More over they each needed to bowl only 10 overs for the day, that too taking adequate rests in between spells .Wasim was 36y & 9 months,not  being an out and out fast bowler, relied more on his variety of tricks .Waqar was only 31.

So it needs only a little bit of sense to understand  that both the above contexts are  convincingly different from one another.

Edited November 8, 2018 by rtmohanlal

[Trichromatic]

9 hours ago, Stan AF said:

Bigger grounds, Fast bouncy tracks, Value for spinners to toss up the ball and inviting the batsmen to hit em.Good crowds. It had everything.

Bigger grounds? What suggests that grounds were bigger earlier?

[Global.Baba]

16 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Bigger grounds? What suggests that grounds were bigger earlier?

He is talking about B and H and CB series and the grounds in terms of boundary length were bigger. They had fences and not ropes that were brought in which decreases the length of the boundary. Please watch highlights of these games.

 

Not sure of the ones from 2000 onwards but in the 90s clearling these grounds was a huge challenge.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Global.Baba

[rkt.india]

10 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

you expose your complete lack of watching cricket through the 90s. 2003 is not the first time Tendy faced and dominated the two Ws. 

when did he actually dominate the two Ws? Can you explain a bit?

[Global.Baba]

8 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

when did he actually dominate the two Ws? Can you explain a bit?

Between 89-2003 Sachin scored 2 100s and 10 50s at a sr of 87.00 against Pak. Average is 38.00 which is low but then again if you remember some of the games were in Toronto etc absolute nightmare for batting.

[Vilander]

10 hours ago, Global.Baba said:

As a guy who saw both eras it is a no contest. Sachin ,Lara etc are way ahead 

no one is way ahead or no contest ahead of anyone. They batted in two different eras and can not be compared like that and be a put as way ahead

[rkt.india]

3 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Between 89-2003 Sachin scored 2 100s and 10 50s at a sr of 87.00 against Pak. Average is 38.00 which is low but then again if you remember some of the games were in Toronto etc absolute nightmare for batting.

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
unfiltered	1989-2012	463	18426	200*	44.83	49	154	5/32	44.48	2	140	0	0.35	Profile
filtered	1989-2003	24	769	98	36.61	0	3	1/22	117.33	0	12	0	-80.71

 

Did all those matches include Akram?  Akram did not play Toronto 1997 series.  Here is the record.  SRT averages 36 in the matches including Wasim Akram with 0 100s.  Regarding 1996 series, Dravid averaged 44, Anwar 40, Azharuddin 43, Malik 36, SRT 34

[Global.Baba]

Just now, Vilander said:

no one is way ahead or no contest ahead of anyone. They batted in two different eras and can not be compared like that and be a put as way ahead

It is definetely way ahead.

 

People make fair arguments of uncovered pitches or helmets for previous eras,but obviously  most of  of us have only seen the quality of cricket through grainy YouTube videos.

 

however from 90s onwards ,since coverage has increased and a lot more visual data is available, cricket has definetely evolved in the favor of batsman which makes the guys especially the names mentioned who have evolved across eras vastly superior.

[Global.Baba]

1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
unfiltered	1989-2012	463	18426	200*	44.83	49	154	5/32	44.48	2	140	0	0.35	Profile
filtered	1989-2003	24	769	98	36.61	0	3	1/22	117.33	0	12	0	-80.71

 

Did all those matches include Akram?  Akram did not play Toronto 1997 series.  Here is the record.  SRT averages 36 in the matches including Wasim Akram with 0 100s.  Regarding 1996 series, Dravid averaged 44, Anwar 40, Azharuddin 43, Malik 36, SRT 34

And what was their Strike rate? Sachin had the role of a guy who gave blistering starts