Washington Sundar should bat at #5 for India in T20 and ODI Cricket

[Ankit_sharma03]

Also in reality i really doubt this will happen under kohli as he doesnt think out of box at all. Under Rohit its possible but kohli i have my doubts, i also doubt he ll try pant at open. In IPL also its seen he sticks to orthodox ideas or else he wud have tried someone like sundar at open till now. Even Rohit was made to open in test after a lot of pressure from ex-cricketer and janta  

Edited November 14, 2019 by Ankit_sharma03

[maniac]

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Talking about t20 Cricket-

Top 4 is kind of fixed apart from dhawan who if looses his place wud loose to Rahul or in future may be samson, shaw, gill . Pant n Kishen can be tried but m not sure that will happen so soon. 

Now comes keeper slot at 5,6 with pant failing DK will soon come into picture and he can bat at 6 

 

Players sundar compete with for 6th batsman bowler role- Dubey, Krunal, Manish pandey, SKY, jadeja

• Dubey- Yet to prove but power game gives advantage, bowling lesser then sundar
• Krunal- Krunal n sundar both have done well . Sundar is a better batsman then krunal for sure but at the end i feel this will come down to captain's choice. I personally would prefer krunal as i feel he is someone who does well in pressure games. 
• jadeja- I wnt be surprised if he is also in line knowing TM cant distinguish between formats.
• manish pandey- already in line 
• SKY - the way he has been performing in IPL n domestic i feel he is about to get chance . He doesnt offer bowling but batting impact definately higher then Sundar. Yes he ll also have to prove

 

Considering all options- it ll depend what u want power in batting which makes u take SKY n Dube but they are yet to be proven. So Sundar comes near to earn this spot

 

But here is when i get in doubt if m sending sundar at 5 and giving him more balls then why dont i send pandya who deserves more balls. Which means sundar plays low in which case his power game needs to be seen in long run. So even when i feel he is not bad for that slot there are other with more potential that look more tempting for that slot 

Krunal Pandya is an out and out IPl staar. Good for IPl and other tamaasha.

 

Sundar is a product of the proper system the way it should be. U-19 Star + IPl pick + domestic performer etc etc. these are the kind of talents who stand out.

 

Indias biggest stars are a product of proper channels be it Rohit, Kohli,Bhajji,Yuvi,Kaif etc or future stars like Shaw,Pant,Gill etc.

 

These are the kind that need to be backed.

 

Even take Pakistan for example you can see that a guy like Babar Azam a rare player who came through the proper system is leagues ahead of PSL stars like Shaatup Khan,Asif Ali etc. but they will still go for flair and tailunt.

 

We are not like them, we have a proper system and should be proud of it.

 

There is a reason why Hardik Pandya is still a work in progress where as some one like Mayank Aggarwal is almost a mainstay within a year or Iyer already looks like he has been around for 10+ years.

Edited November 14, 2019 by maniac

[rtmohanlal]

no. firstly he needs to prove  more in domestic

 

the current best option for that 5th slot is Jadeja.  Ability wise  he has every thing for that 5th spot. Only that he has been misused by the TM as a slogger just as was the case with 'tests' too.  If he maintains his fitness (which is comparatively  easy when compared to a fast bowler) I don't think why he can't be a proper 5th batsman in ODI & atleast 6th in tests for easily atleast some  5 years moving forward.

[kirkutfan]

Couldn’t he open the batting in a t20 game? He would score a faster 30 than Dhawan, and give India some more bowling choices.

[sandeep]

6 hours ago, Sooda said:

but even then, there are actual "batsmen" who have done more to be given a chance at as high as slot as no 5.

Of course there are.  But my goal is to see if Sundar can be more than what he is today.   Eventually he can float further down the order, and settle in at #6,7 or even 8.  

 

6 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Before Sundar ill give jadeja, shankar, dubey (only if shows some potential in t20) a shot.  Sundar experiment can be tried in A games and even for his State. As of now i feel we have better options

You are completely missing my point - none of the guys you listed in your 2 post essay are guys who can be looked at as reliably bowling a full bowler's quota.  Jadeja is one, but he has had 10 years to show what he can do with the bat in white ball cricket.  His 3 year blossoming as a test batsman has not been replicated in LOI cricket.  And Sundar is much younger and potentially has a much higher batting ceiling.  His time is now.  

 

In T20 the only realistic competitor Sundar has - for the slot of a bowling allrounder, is Krunal Pandya.  But Krunal has demonstrated that he's at best about the same level of bowler as Sundar.  And with the bat, he looks a lot less technically sound and has glaring short ball issues.  

 

The reason for putting Sundar in the middle order is that if he manages to deliver as a batsman, India could have a 2 skill player on its hands with a 10+ year career to come.  A Shaqib Hassan type player.  And even if it turns out that he's not quite good enough with the bat, we already know that he's more than good enough to bat at #8.   

 

Also, keep in mind that the only reason that the Indian white ball team had some semblance of balance over the last couple of years is thanks to Hardik "kar ke aaya" Pandya.  And this guy just had back surgery.  There is no guarantee that he will be able to keep bowling big chunks of overs consistently at a high level, especially over the long term.  

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, rtmohanlal said:

no. firstly he needs to prove  more in domestic

 

the current best option for that 5th slot is Jadeja.  Ability wise  he has every thing for that 5th spot. Only that he has been misused by the TM as a slogger just as was the case with 'tests' too.  If he maintains his fitness (which is comparatively  easy when compared to a fast bowler) I don't think why he can't be a proper 5th batsman in ODI & atleast 6th in tests for easily atleast some  5 years moving forward.

Agree that he needs to be given a proper developmental opportunities in domestic cricket.  Somebody from the Indian team needs to speak to TNCA and ensure that he bats at #4 or 5 for their team across formats.  

[sandeep]

3 hours ago, Cricspin said:

No .. not top 5 for sure..

 

I would  not say his place is even  secure.. I will select him in top 16 though..

 

We need at the very  minimum 5 proper Batsmen irrespective  of the format.

 

 

This wouldn't be a long-term thing - it would be for 10-12 games to see what Sundar can do, given an extended run.  Ultimately, he would settle into a slot in the lower middle order.  The top order slot would just be to put him through his paces and see what he can potentially blossom into.

[The Dark Horse]

Good idea but the main problem is Kohli doesn't trust his batting even for RCB.

[sandeep]

41 minutes ago, Cricspin said:

I get what you are saying. I do see batting skills in him. 

 

But is this the best plan we can come up with at this point. Can we afford such experimentation for 10-12 games ( this could be 4 different bi-lateral series)

 

Also, I am trying to understand if his bowling is that special  .. Are we selecting him primarily as a batsman or bowler or expect him to do both jobs like Hardik often does ?

 

I feel Krunal and Him are too similar for both to be in playing 11.  Being in team selection is fine.

 

I would just persist with Pant at No.5 in T20I. Also expecting when Hardik comes back, the competition for top 6 slots will be more.

 

 

 

If we can potentially end up with a genuine allrounder - its worth the experiment.  Next ODI WC is 4 years away.  10-12 games in bilateral series can easily be invested for this.   Next WC is to be played in India, spinners are more likely to be effective.  Having a guy like Sundar - a guy who can be your 4th bowler, instead of 5th or 6th - i.e. a  guy you can trust with bowling 10 overs regularly, instead of the Kedar, Dubey, Shankar etc where you count on them for 4-5 overs on a good day - having a guy like that who can potentially bat at #6 - would give the team so much flexibility.  

 

And if it doesn't work, fine.  

 

Most folks in India are too fixated on batsmen - we try to make part-time bowlers out of guys like Kedar Jadhav - even Kohli etc have bowled for the  team.  Sundar offers a potential at a proper 2 skill player - maybe not.  But its certainly worth exploring.  

[ShoonyaSifar]

44 minutes ago, The Dark Horse said:

Good idea but the main problem is Kohli doesn't trust his batting even for RCB.

Nor does his own state team. He batted at 7-8 during the VH Trophy and at 6-7 during the SMA

[rkt.india]

12 hours ago, jf1gp_1 said:

Why not vihari or jaddu or Krunal or kedarl? 

Because they don't suit that position. Vihari is a test player. Jaddu is #8 at best. 

[rkt.india]

5 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Nor does his own state team. He batted at 7-8 during the VH Trophy and at 6-7 during the SMA

Because since his success in IPL with the ball, he has been tagged as a bowler. 

[express bowling]

I would really like a proper spinner in the top 7 ... because it allows us to play 3 frontline quicks.

 

Hardik at 6 and Jadeja at 7 could be a good option.

 

Sundar at 6 or 5 and Hardik at 7 is something I am interested in trying too.  

 

Sundar's big hitting ability is improving. If he can hit pacers nowadays then this thing can be tried.

[The Dark Horse]

48 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Nor does his own state team. He batted at 7-8 during the VH Trophy and at 6-7 during the SMA

He has occasionally come in at 3 or 4 for TN in the VH trophy.

[MechEng]

I hope New York Khubsurat and Los Angeles Sharmeeli also represent India some day...

[Ankit_sharma03]

7 hours ago, maniac said:

Krunal Pandya is an out and out IPl staar. Good for IPl and other tamaasha.

he already has 3 MOM in international cricket....ipl shudnt even come in question.

Isnt IPL domestic for t20? unless u want ppl to select t20 player on Ranji trophy

Quote

 

Sundar is a product of the proper system the way it should be. U-19 Star + IPl pick + domestic performer etc etc. these are the kind of talents who stand out.

They both come in cpmparison for t20

So their t20 bowling avg comparison

Sundar 26

Krunal 27

 

Batting 

Sundar 20...s/r 121

Krunal 27 .....s/r 147

 

Krunal is ahead in batting, bowling men almost same 

 

Sundar

His batting avg in domestic 

1st class - 31

List A- 20

 

Bowling- 

List A- 46 

First class- 26 (which he is not in contention)

 

Konsa domestic performer bhai 

 

Dube had batting avg of 48 n 42 ....that was a fluke for you but a guy with 31 n 20 avg isnt 

Quote

 

There is a reason why Hardik Pandya is still a work in progress where as some one like Mayank Aggarwal is almost a mainstay within a year or Iyer already looks like he has been around for 10+ years.

Iyer is already dropped from team n mayank is yet to play in diff condition. 

Hardik is more permanent then these 2

Edited November 15, 2019 by Ankit_sharma03

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

 

You are completely missing my point - none of the guys you listed in your 2 post essay are guys who can be looked at as reliably bowling a full bowler's quota.

 u missed my point if i have to look for a 6th bowler anyways i shudnt be looking at full quota of overs....batting strength is more needed in case of 6th bowler

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

  Jadeja is one, but he has had 10 years to show what he can do with the bat in white ball cricket.  His 3 year blossoming as a test batsman has not been replicated in LOI cricket.  And Sundar is much younger and potentially has a much higher batting ceiling.  His time is now.  

Agree jadeja is a fraud but then again i feel 7 never suited him and he played few innings when he had time so if i have o give someone a chance why not him with more balls rather at 7 where his problem lies. 

He failed doesnt mean he cant get better. 
I find jadeja more tempting in that case of his bowling, fielding , experience in batting 

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

In T20 the only realistic competitor Sundar has - for the slot of a bowling allrounder, is Krunal Pandya.  But Krunal has demonstrated that he's at best about the same level of bowler as Sundar.  And with the bat, he looks a lot less technically sound and has glaring short ball issues.  

 

Krunal batting is definitely behind sundar

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

The reason for putting Sundar in the middle order is that if he manages to deliver as a batsman, India could have a 2 skill player on its hands with a 10+ year career to come.  A Shaqib Hassan type player.  And even if it turns out that he's not quite good enough with the bat, we already know that he's more than good enough to bat at #8.   

but for that he needs to deliver as batsman n bowler more in domestic

 

His batting avg in domestic 

1st class - 31

List A- 20

 

Bowling- 

List A- 46 

 

This is not demanding a place

 

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

Also, keep in mind that the only reason that the Indian white ball team had some semblance of balance over the last couple of years is thanks to Hardik "kar ke aaya" Pandya.  And this guy just had back surgery.  There is no guarantee that he will be able to keep bowling big chunks of overs consistently at a high level, especially over the long term.  

in that case jadeja is more tempting....

See i dnt mind this option but not at this point....ill try others till the time this experiment can be done in A- games . As of now i feel there are better options

[sandeep]

8 hours ago, express bowling said:

I would really like a proper spinner in the top 7 ... because it allows us to play 3 frontline quicks.

 

Hardik at 6 and Jadeja at 7 could be a good option.

 

Sundar at 6 or 5 and Hardik at 7 is something I am interested in trying too.  

 

Sundar's big hitting ability is improving. If he can hit pacers nowadays then this thing can be tried.

And that's the end goal - he can eventually float down to 7.  But the point is to give him the space to see just how far he can go as a batsman.  He has flashed some ability.  At the best case super optimistic end of the spectrum - he may blossom into a Shaqib type - 2 player in one combo.  A guy who can bat at #5 or 6 at the level of a specialist batsman, and can bowl 10 overs.  And if it doesn't work out, and he turns out more like Axar/Jadeja, then 10-12 games later we know what he can and cannot do, and we either play him as a bowler, or move on to other prospects.

 

My point is when you have a young player who checks a lot of boxes, has already proven himself as a proper bowler, in pressure situations - AND is demonstrating proficiency with his 2nd skill, 4 years away from next ODI WC, its time to give a lot of dheel to this kite, to see just how high it can fly.

[sandeep]

6 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

u missed my point if i have to look for a 6th bowler anyways i shudnt be looking at full quota of overs....batting strength is more needed in case of 6th bowler

Jeebus you're thick.

[Stan AF]

20 hours ago, sandeep said:

"No - I don't like the idea?" or "No, I won't discuss it?"

The first.

 

#5 is a specialist position. Only Indian fans are this much obsessed with this batting/bowling half all rounders.