How great was Wasim Akram ?Best pace bowler of all time?

[NameGoesHere]

ATG of course, but he's supremely lucky he didn't have to face Majid Khan.

[Global.Baba]

18 minutes ago, NameGoesHere said:

ATG of course, but he's supremely lucky he didn't have to face Majid Khan.

Not true. Here is an excerpt  from Harsh Thakor's diary

 

The young hot stud Wasim with those long flowing locks stood mesmerized in the nets one day under the heavenly Karachi sun when he saw this majestic creature who had descended from the abode of gods. The young stud basked in the radiance of the man and suddenly he felt a tingling sensation in his tool. When he opened his metaphoric toolbox, he realized that all of a sudden he was blessed with multiple tools. Majestic Majid inspected all the tools of the young stud and tampered with one of them and that lo and behold became the art of reverse swing.

 

All hail Majid!!!

[Straight Drive]

1 hour ago, Global.Baba said:

 Hadlee is 12th? I would say 13 maybe 

Good pick. Hadlee did not have a good bowling partner. Ewen Chatfield wasn't world class. Whereas as a bowling pair Wasim and Waqar along with quality spinners helped Wasim -Waqar pair a lot. Chatfield wasn't in that class, neither did Kiwis have a potent spin attack like Pakistan did. In taht ways Hadlee had to hunt for his own wickets in absence of quality bowlers alongside him for most part of his career. So subjectively Hadlee has to do a lot for his team with the bowling attack that Kiwis had.

[Global.Baba]

1 minute ago, Straight Drive said:

Good pick. Hadlee did not have a good bowling partner. Ewen Chatfield wasn't world class. Whereas as a bowling pair Wasim and Waqar along with quality spinners helped Wasim -Waqar pair a lot. Chatfield wasn't in that class, neither did Kiwis have a potent spin attack like Pakistan did. In taht ways Hadlee had to hunt for his own wickets in absence of quality bowlers alongside him for most part of his career. So subjectively Hadlee has to do a lot for his team with the bowling attack that Kiwis had.

I would also rate Kapil the test bowler over Wasim. bowling on those docile pitches with an army of spinners with no support and still being the strike bowler  

[zen]

Vs. top teams:

 

iew overall figures [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or West Indies

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1970

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 200  and bowling average less than or equal to 25

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
MD Marshall (WI)	1978-1991	81	151	17584	7876	376	7/22	11/89	20.94	2.68	46.7	22	4
J Garner (WI)	1977-1987	58	111	13169	5433	259	6/56	9/108	20.97	2.47	50.8	7	0
CEL Ambrose (WI)	1988-2000	93	169	21254	8211	383	8/45	11/84	21.43	2.31	55.4	21	3
GD McGrath (AUS)	1993-2007	112	220	26657	11107	512	8/24	10/27	21.69	2.49	52.0	27	3
AA Donald (SA)	1992-2002	63	112	13670	6557	287	7/84	12/139	22.84	2.87	47.6	17	2
DW Steyn (SA)	2004-2019	75	138	15331	8311	360	7/51	11/60	23.08	3.25	42.5	21	5
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1973-1990	80	139	20513	9138	394	9/52	15/123	23.19	2.67	52.0	34	8
MA Holding (WI)	1975-1987	60	113	12680	5898	249	8/92	14/149	23.68	2.79	50.9	13	2
DK Lillee (AUS)	1971-1984	69	130	18287	8386	352	7/83	11/123	23.82	2.75	51.9	23	7
SM Pollock (SA)	1995-2008	87	162	20483	8166	341	7/87	10/147	23.94	2.39	60.0	14	1
Imran Khan (PAK)	1971-1990	78	128	17670	7585	316	8/60	12/165	24.00	2.57	55.9	20	5
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1985-2001	73	128	16822	7388	304	7/119	11/110	24.30	2.63	55.3	18	4
CA Walsh (WI)	1984-2001	127	232	28953	12276	502	7/37	13/55	24.45	2.54	57.6	22	3

 

 

Away

 

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Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or West Indies

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1970

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100  and bowling average less than or equal to 26

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
J Garner (WI)	1979-1987	29	55	6885	2685	136	6/56	9/108	19.74	2.33	50.6	4	0
CEL Ambrose (WI)	1988-2000	45	84	10668	4172	199	7/25	10/120	20.96	2.34	53.6	11	1
GD McGrath (AUS)	1994-2005	51	99	12230	5247	248	8/38	10/78	21.15	2.57	49.3	18	1
MD Marshall (WI)	1978-1991	50	93	10912	4726	219	7/22	10/92	21.57	2.59	49.8	14	2
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1973-1990	39	68	10315	4664	203	9/52	15/123	22.97	2.71	50.8	19	5
MA Holding (WI)	1975-1987	37	71	8367	3855	163	8/92	14/149	23.65	2.76	51.3	11	2
AME Roberts (WI)	1974-1983	29	56	6961	3104	130	7/54	12/121	23.87	2.67	53.5	9	2
DK Lillee (AUS)	1972-1982	25	46	6753	2904	121	7/89	11/123	24.00	2.58	55.8	8	3
AA Donald (SA)	1992-2002	29	52	6524	3133	128	6/59	9/133	24.47	2.88	50.9	6	0
CA Walsh (WI)	1984-2001	73	135	16338	7200	289	7/37	13/55	24.91	2.64	56.5	14	2
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1985-2001	49	86	11886	5210	208	7/119	11/110	25.04	2.62	57.1	14	4
TM Alderman (AUS)	1981-1991	21	39	5557	2616	102	6/128	10/151	25.64	2.82	54.4	10	1
DW Steyn (SA)	2007-2016	26	45	5191	2909	113	7/51	10/108	25.74	3.36	45.9	7

 

 

In wins

 

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Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or West Indies

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1970

Match result won match

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100  and bowling average less than or equal to 20

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1974-1990	18	36	4948	1975	145	9/52	15/123	13.62	2.39	34.1	15	7
Imran Khan (PAK)	1976-1990	21	38	5047	1924	122	8/60	12/165	15.77	2.28	41.3	8	5
MD Marshall (WI)	1980-1991	43	86	9678	4264	254	7/22	11/89	16.78	2.64	38.1	17	4
AA Donald (SA)	1992-2001	26	50	5284	2558	152	7/84	12/139	16.82	2.90	34.7	12	2
DW Steyn (SA)	2006-2019	40	78	8260	4339	257	7/51	11/60	16.88	3.15	32.1	19	5
CEL Ambrose (WI)	1988-2000	41	81	9578	3685	213	8/45	11/84	17.30	2.30	44.9	12	3
VD Philander (SA)	2011-2019	27	54	5050	2090	119	6/21	10/114	17.56	2.48	42.4	8	1
DK Lillee (AUS)	1972-1984	30	59	7743	3602	200	7/83	11/123	18.01	2.79	38.7	17	6
SM Pollock (SA)	1996-2008	35	70	8152	3069	168	6/56	10/147	18.26	2.25	48.5	7	1
MA Holding (WI)	1975-1986	31	62	6107	2791	152	8/92	14/149	18.36	2.74	40.1	6	1
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1986-2001	24	48	5571	2416	130	7/119	11/179	18.58	2.60	42.8	7	1
AME Roberts (WI)	1974-1983	21	42	4650	2119	110	7/54	9/59	19.26	2.73	42.2	5	0
GD McGrath (AUS)	1993-2007	76	152	17902	7190	372	8/24	10/27	19.32	2.40	48.1	16	3
RGD Willis (ENG)	1971-1983	31	62	6117	2690	137	8/43	9/142	19.63	2.63	44.6	7	0
CA Walsh (WI)	1984-2001	49	97	10450	4497	229	7/37	13/55	19.63	2.58	45.6	10	2
J Garner (WI)	1977-1986	30	60	6557	2799	142	5/55	9/108	19.71	2.56	46.1	3	0
IT Botham (ENG)	1977-1991	31	60	7236	3351	168	8/34	13/106	19.94	2.77	43.0	15	2

 

 

My top 3 picks (in no particular order) for the AT world 11 spots. 4th bowler will be Warne, the premier test spinner 

• Marshall, the premier test pace bowler
• Hadlee, the premier test match winner 
• Ambrose, ability to run through sides

Edited February 6, 2020 by zen

[Jimmy Cliff]

34 minutes ago, SUMO said:

Difficult to judge pre 1970s era. But Strike rate of 62 doesnt look special. Moreover in 44 games he took 186 wic (<4 wic/match).
He was just a medium pacer from what I have read.

His WPM is actually better than that of Akram (414 wkts in 104 Tests). While his SR is on the higher side, he has a much better ratio of top order wickets compared to Akram. He wasn't as quick as Akram though I wouldn't consider him a proper medium pacer like Bedser. 

[Straight Drive]

20 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

I would also rate Kapil the test bowler over Wasim. bowling on those docile pitches with an army of spinners with no support and still being the strike bowler  

Well, a specialist bowler is expected to do better than world class ATG and I feel Akram was slightly better bowler than Kapil.  Both toiled on wickets which were not friendly for pacers. If Kapil was an Aussie replacing anyone of Lillee and Thomson combo or Pakistani replacing any of Akram - Waqar or West Indian replacing one of Walsh - Ambrose, or Pollock - Donald or WI pairs in 70's in tandem, he would have been more dangerous with a world-class Pacer at other end.

 

Kapil had to bowl lot with Maninder Singh, Prabhakar, Chetan Sharma, Madam Lal and Roger Binny. So we have to acknowledge the major difference in overall bowling strength of both teams during the career of Kapil and Akram.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Straight Drive

[kohli]

Marshall 

mcgrath 

hadlee 

steyn 

ambrose 

Lille 

imran 

donald 

akram 

garner 

walsh 

pollock 

waqar 

holding 

9th Best fast bowler in test cricket.in odi only McGrath is better than akram.overall ( test + odi) in top 5.

[speedheat]

Kitna likhta hai ye

[express bowling]

Akram is one of the best pacers I have ever  seen  ...  it is not possible to rank top pacers or top cricketers.

 

It is because he was a complete bowler.

 

If there was swing on offer, he could utilize it.

 

If the pitch was flat, he could bowl 140 k and use bounce and take advantage of variable bounce.

 

He could reverse the ball at pace.

 

And he was an intelligent bowler who could set up batsmen.

 

Akram had this ability to get the ball to suddenly  rear up after bowling a few fullish swinging deliveries.  And it was very difficult to handle.

 

Had a great yorker and bouncer.

 

A really good pacer.

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by express bowling

[nitinbwj]

What a nice essay !! Skipped all of it ..

Edited February 6, 2020 by nitinbwj

[Vilander]

1 hour ago, Global.Baba said:

The young stud basked in the radiance of the man and suddenly he felt a tingling sensation in his tool. When he opened his metaphoric toolbox, he realized that all of a sudden he was blessed with multiple tools. Majestic Majid inspected all the tools of the young stud and tampered with one of them

[Harsh Thakor]

33 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Akram is one of the best pacers I have ever  seen  ...  it is not possible to rank top pacers or top cricketers.

 

It is because he was a complete bowler.

 

If there was swing on offer, he could utilize it.

 

If the pitch was flat, he could bowl 140 k and use bounce and take advantage of variable bounce.

 

He could reverse the ball at pace.

 

And he was an intelligent bowler who could set up batsmen.

 

Akram had this ability to get the ball to suddenly  rear up after bowling a few fullish swinging deliveries.  And it was very difficult to handle.

 

Had a great yorker and bouncer.

 

A really good pacer.

 

perfect  very well put

[zen]

Pakistan "AT attack" had a chance to close this game in Aus but 

 

 

[Harsh Thakor]

43 minutes ago, kohli said:

Marshall 

mcgrath 

hadlee 

steyn 

ambrose 

Lille 

imran 

donald 

akram 

garner 

walsh 

pollock 

waqar 

holding 

9th Best fast bowler in test cricket.in odi only McGrath is better than akram.overall ( test + odi) in top 5.

A fair or good list and conclusion.Do remember how oustanding Wasim was on flat decks on the sub-continent and how in peak era he overshadowed Ambrose ,Waqar and Donald.Imran was better in peak era and in terms of best figures but overall not as consistent in all phases of career.Wasim had more longevity starting his carer at the age of 19 and being outstanding from the start .On flat tracks or on cricket wickets Wasim was better than Ambose,although the latter was more of a match-winner.Wasim was more capable of a cruicial breakthrough when great batsmen were well set,Ambrose was not at his best in the sub-continent .

 

In test and ODI in 1st 2 and in 1st 5 in only tests.Why do you rtae Donald ahead in tests and Steyn and Wasim not in top 3 overall?

[Vilander]

9 minutes ago, Harsh Thakor said:

Wasim was on flat decks on the sub-continent and how in peak era he overshadowed Ambrose ,Waqar and Donald.Imran was better in peak era

wait i did not know Wasim was 'hyper super duper' and Waqar just 'super duper' and Imran just a lowly duper. Thanks for confirming harris taukeer now whole world knows.

[Vilander]

peak era that harris taukeer talks about is right after bottle cap era but before ball bite era. 

[Harsh Thakor]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Vs. top teams:

 

iew overall figures [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or West Indies

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1970

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 200  and bowling average less than or equal to 25

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
MD Marshall (WI)	1978-1991	81	151	17584	7876	376	7/22	11/89	20.94	2.68	46.7	22	4
J Garner (WI)	1977-1987	58	111	13169	5433	259	6/56	9/108	20.97	2.47	50.8	7	0
CEL Ambrose (WI)	1988-2000	93	169	21254	8211	383	8/45	11/84	21.43	2.31	55.4	21	3
GD McGrath (AUS)	1993-2007	112	220	26657	11107	512	8/24	10/27	21.69	2.49	52.0	27	3
AA Donald (SA)	1992-2002	63	112	13670	6557	287	7/84	12/139	22.84	2.87	47.6	17	2
DW Steyn (SA)	2004-2019	75	138	15331	8311	360	7/51	11/60	23.08	3.25	42.5	21	5
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1973-1990	80	139	20513	9138	394	9/52	15/123	23.19	2.67	52.0	34	8
MA Holding (WI)	1975-1987	60	113	12680	5898	249	8/92	14/149	23.68	2.79	50.9	13	2
DK Lillee (AUS)	1971-1984	69	130	18287	8386	352	7/83	11/123	23.82	2.75	51.9	23	7
SM Pollock (SA)	1995-2008	87	162	20483	8166	341	7/87	10/147	23.94	2.39	60.0	14	1
Imran Khan (PAK)	1971-1990	78	128	17670	7585	316	8/60	12/165	24.00	2.57	55.9	20	5
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1985-2001	73	128	16822	7388	304	7/119	11/110	24.30	2.63	55.3	18	4
CA Walsh (WI)	1984-2001	127	232	28953	12276	502	7/37	13/55	24.45	2.54	57.6	22	3

 

 

Away

 

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Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or West Indies

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1970

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100  and bowling average less than or equal to 26

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
J Garner (WI)	1979-1987	29	55	6885	2685	136	6/56	9/108	19.74	2.33	50.6	4	0
CEL Ambrose (WI)	1988-2000	45	84	10668	4172	199	7/25	10/120	20.96	2.34	53.6	11	1
GD McGrath (AUS)	1994-2005	51	99	12230	5247	248	8/38	10/78	21.15	2.57	49.3	18	1
MD Marshall (WI)	1978-1991	50	93	10912	4726	219	7/22	10/92	21.57	2.59	49.8	14	2
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1973-1990	39	68	10315	4664	203	9/52	15/123	22.97	2.71	50.8	19	5
MA Holding (WI)	1975-1987	37	71	8367	3855	163	8/92	14/149	23.65	2.76	51.3	11	2
AME Roberts (WI)	1974-1983	29	56	6961	3104	130	7/54	12/121	23.87	2.67	53.5	9	2
DK Lillee (AUS)	1972-1982	25	46	6753	2904	121	7/89	11/123	24.00	2.58	55.8	8	3
AA Donald (SA)	1992-2002	29	52	6524	3133	128	6/59	9/133	24.47	2.88	50.9	6	0
CA Walsh (WI)	1984-2001	73	135	16338	7200	289	7/37	13/55	24.91	2.64	56.5	14	2
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1985-2001	49	86	11886	5210	208	7/119	11/110	25.04	2.62	57.1	14	4
TM Alderman (AUS)	1981-1991	21	39	5557	2616	102	6/128	10/151	25.64	2.82	54.4	10	1
DW Steyn (SA)	2007-2016	26	45	5191	2909	113	7/51	10/108	25.74	3.36	45.9	7

 

 

In wins

 

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or West Indies

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1970

Match result won match

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100  and bowling average less than or equal to 20

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1974-1990	18	36	4948	1975	145	9/52	15/123	13.62	2.39	34.1	15	7
Imran Khan (PAK)	1976-1990	21	38	5047	1924	122	8/60	12/165	15.77	2.28	41.3	8	5
MD Marshall (WI)	1980-1991	43	86	9678	4264	254	7/22	11/89	16.78	2.64	38.1	17	4
AA Donald (SA)	1992-2001	26	50	5284	2558	152	7/84	12/139	16.82	2.90	34.7	12	2
DW Steyn (SA)	2006-2019	40	78	8260	4339	257	7/51	11/60	16.88	3.15	32.1	19	5
CEL Ambrose (WI)	1988-2000	41	81	9578	3685	213	8/45	11/84	17.30	2.30	44.9	12	3
VD Philander (SA)	2011-2019	27	54	5050	2090	119	6/21	10/114	17.56	2.48	42.4	8	1
DK Lillee (AUS)	1972-1984	30	59	7743	3602	200	7/83	11/123	18.01	2.79	38.7	17	6
SM Pollock (SA)	1996-2008	35	70	8152	3069	168	6/56	10/147	18.26	2.25	48.5	7	1
MA Holding (WI)	1975-1986	31	62	6107	2791	152	8/92	14/149	18.36	2.74	40.1	6	1
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1986-2001	24	48	5571	2416	130	7/119	11/179	18.58	2.60	42.8	7	1
AME Roberts (WI)	1974-1983	21	42	4650	2119	110	7/54	9/59	19.26	2.73	42.2	5	0
GD McGrath (AUS)	1993-2007	76	152	17902	7190	372	8/24	10/27	19.32	2.40	48.1	16	3
RGD Willis (ENG)	1971-1983	31	62	6117	2690	137	8/43	9/142	19.63	2.63	44.6	7	0
CA Walsh (WI)	1984-2001	49	97	10450	4497	229	7/37	13/55	19.63	2.58	45.6	10	2
J Garner (WI)	1977-1986	30	60	6557	2799	142	5/55	9/108	19.71	2.56	46.1	3	0
IT Botham (ENG)	1977-1991	31	60	7236	3351	168	8/34	13/106	19.94	2.77	43.0	15	2

 

 

My top 3 picks (in no particular order) for the AT world 11 spots. 4th bowler will be Warne, the premier test spinner 

• Marshall, the premier test pace bowler
• Hadlee, the premier test match winner 
• Ambrose, ability to run through sides

Remember that Ambrose and Hadlee were not as outstanding in unhelpful condition on flat tracks where Wasim was the ultimate champion.Even if not the quickest or most accurate he was more lethal than anyone and in his peak era overshadowed Ambrose,Donald and Waqar.Ambrose was a champion as a match winner on broken wickets while Hadlee was the master on a green top.Lillee was more complete than either of them like Wasim.Hadlee often became defensive when the going was against him while Ambrose could become predictable.I agree in helpful condition sthey wee right at the top but morally Lillee,Wasim or even Andy Roberts were more complete.THe most intelligent of all was Glen Mcgrath who surpassed everyone in terms of craft for fast-medium pace ,who could win more games in unhelpful conditions than Hadleee or Ambrose.Also remember Wasim overshadowed Waqar against strong teams.,

[Harsh Thakor]

2 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Yeah but Davidson didn't just excel in random county or Sheffield Shield games. His Test record is stellar and he has a better bowling and batting average compared to Akram. He played in the era of Sobers (who is pretty much universally recognized as the GOAT batting all-rounder) so I don't see an issue with rating him highly. His all-round performance in the first ever Tied Test was his greatest moment in Tests.

Davidson was all but an equal of Wasim,arguably more accurate and quicker.An all-time great without question.

[Harsh Thakor]

3 hours ago, Global.Baba said:

 Hadlee is 12th? I would say 13 maybe 

 

3 hours ago, Vilander said:

Of the folks i watched live when i could understand the game, he is in top 10.

 

top of my mind.

 

Ambrose

Walsh

Mgrath

Steyn

Wasim ( Did he benefit from the ball tampering duo in the other side)

Waqar ( Jury out on bottle cap benefit he was found guilty though so lets keep him out of the list)

Gillespie

Anderson

Bond

Lee

Donald

 

 

 

Now Bumrah is there with this crowd in terms of skill and accuracy we will see if he ends there with his career or withers away.

 

In skill he surpassed everyone with only Lillee and Marshall in his league who were more agressive and accurate.No bowler was more diverse or creative or as unreadable.Better performer on flat batting than Hadleee and Ambrose.In peak era from 1990-98 Wasim performed better than Donald,Waqar or Ambrose .