Current Test Team Under Virat Kohli Is India's Best Ever: Sunil Gavaskar

[Ankit_sharma03]

15 hours ago, Suhaan said:

Atleast pak ex cricketers criticize their board and current setup,here we don't see "any match ka mujrim" kind of things anymore

Both are extreme and uncalled for, match ka mujrim was the worst thing on TV 

Pak criticise way to much which results in panic and has never allowed their team to build

Indian ex cricketer have been overprotective and the end result is we havent achieved to our potential 

[Tibarn]

On 8/23/2020 at 4:04 PM, zen said:

 

If you are considering b/w those two teams - at home, they are both good but away Kohli's team is more fun to watch esp. for bowling. In the last 2 years, Pujara hit 4 memorable 100s, Kohli has some good knocks too, and so on. In SENA, the current team won for the first time in Aus, one of the best series that I have seen. 

 

 

 

 

I am legitimately wondering what other teams could possibly be in conversation. If there is another team, I would like to hear it. I am expecting someone to eventually bring up Ganguly's team...

 

The minimum standard should be that the team was ranked at least 2nd in the world. I honestly don't see how one can rank a team that wasn't number 1 as the best Indian side, when we have had two number 1 in the world ranked teams in the last 12-13 years...

 

There is this reflexive hatred some so-called "India fans" on this forum have when people don't think Dhoni and/or Kohli were/are the worst things to happen to Indian cricket. These same people will, wearing rose-tinted glasses reminisce about some "Golden age" under Ganguly or maybe Kumble. If one actually looks at the results and team rankings for that era, Ganguly's team was actually pretty mediocre. 

 

The biggest achievement his fans cite was a drawn series in Australia where neither Warne(drug suspension) nor McGrath(injured) played in any of the 4 tests. These same people whinge about how our Test series win in Australia doesn't count because Smith and Warner were suspended.

 

Literally the GOAT leg-spinner, and arguably the GOAT fast-bowler don't play a series and such people celebrate a draw...Holy-double standards Batman!   

On 8/23/2020 at 4:04 PM, zen said:

View overall figures [change view] Primary team India  Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies  Home or away away (home of opposition)  Involving the captain MS Dhoni (INDIA)  Totals in terms of batting team  Ordered by matches won (descending)

I used the same filter that you provided by you to check what Ganguly's record was using the same criteria 

Ganguly: Won 5, lost 9, draw 7. 

Dhoni- Won 5, lost 15, draw 9 

Kohli- Won 13, lost 11, draw 4

 

Here it is

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Involving the captain SC Ganguly (INDIA)

Totals in terms of batting team

Ordered by matches won (descending)

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Overall figures

Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
India	2001-2004	21	5	9	0	7	0.555	34.74	3.11	37	705	99

 

 

Of Ganguly's 22 Test wins, 9 came against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh... the 9th and 10th ranked Test teams 

He also split captaincy during a lost home Test series against Australia. He captained the 1st two tests of that series, losing 1 match and drawing another. Dravid captained the 3rd and 4th test which we split 1 win and 1 loss.  

 

Ganguly was a great ODI captain for India, particularly in finding and backing talent for that format, but his best Test players all debuted and/or established themselves under Fixer.

 

On 8/23/2020 at 4:04 PM, zen said:

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Involving the captain MS Dhoni (INDIA)

Totals in terms of batting team

Ordered by matches won (descending)

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Overall figures

Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
India	2009-2014	29	5	15	0	9	0.333	30.69	3.25	57	707	94

 

I would judge Dhoni less harshly than his overall record would indicate. He was the captain when we drew a series in SA and won a series in NZ. His team had a two year peak from 2009 to 2010 where they rightfully deserved the number one in the world.

 

When I am saying Dhoni's team, I am really talking about those two years. Starting in 2011, with the back-to-back whitewashes in England and Australia, I think the batting lineup was in a decline due to old-age. After that, basically was a rebuilding phase where he had to get rid of the old players and introduce both new batsmen and bowlers.  The team after 2010 doesn't belong in the discussion, IMO.

 

Therefore I am talking about 2009-2010 Dhoni's team in my comparison.  India actually achieved its highest ever team rating in July 2010, a rating of 130 and again in October.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130320093239/http://www.icc-cricket.com/match_zone/test_ranking.php?year=2010

 

In comparison, Kohli's highest rated team was also 130 at one point(table on first link), but, for most years it ended at 125(rankings on second link). 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICC_Test_Championship

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_cricket_in_2017–18

 

It's very tough to decide, but Dhoni's peak team had more accomplishments, (series win in NZ and drawn series in SA), and a superior batting lineup, but Kohli's basically dominates in terms of overall number of wins, especially at home and has India's best bowling attack ever...

 

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Tibarn

[Tibarn]

16 hours ago, Adamant said:

Dhoni's team?

Call it Dravid or kumble's team.

Dhoni is the worst test captain india ever had .Elo ratings took a big dive during his tenure.

Whoever captains the team, owns the team, win or lose. 

I am a fan of Dravid, and his series win in England was probably the best series win in our, at least recent, history, considering England ranked number 2 in the rankings that year and we beat them at home, but he wasn't even captain long enough to pick players or have a long-term impact on the team.

 

Kumble has more losses and draws than wins as captain: 3 wins, 5 losses, 6 draws.

 

I am exclusively talking about the team from 2009 to 2010, when Dhoni was captain. That was arguably the best Indian team ever. The team including and after 2011 wasn't that good to be in the discussion.  

 

After 2011, all the core batsmen declined: Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Sachin, Laxman, and the team fell off a cliff. Dhoni can't beat time itself.

 

If one blames him for Sachin & friends getting old, then he also gets credit for backing: Virat, Pujara, Shami, Jadeja, Ashwin, Ishant, etc etc who are the backbone of the current team, which also achieved a number 1 ranking. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Tibarn

[Gollum]

People overrate our 2000s team a lot:

 

-Whitewash at home against RSA (no spinner)

- Draw in Zim lol

- Loss in RSA 2001, we even lost the unofficial 3rd test, by an innings and 100 runs

- Loss in SL 2001

- Loss in WI 2002 lolololol, in fact dominated...NZ toured there and crushed them the following month

- Humiliation in 2002 NZ

- Humiliated by Aus at home in 2004, end result is flattering

- Drawn series against Pak in 2005 at home, Sami, Razzaq, Kaneria, Afridi, Arshad Khan was their bowling attack...how do you not smash that side?

- 2006 Karachi test humiliation where we lost by 350 runs after reducing them to 40/6 on day 1, 1st 90 minutes

- Drawn series at home against Eng in 2006. useless, remember the capitulation against Udal in Mumbai, we won the toss in that match

- Loss in RSA away (2006-07) blew so many chances and famous fab 4 shat their pants in Cape Town after Jaffer/Karthik's fantastic opening stand

- Loss in Aus 2007-08

- Loss in SL 2008

- Drawn series against RSA at home in '08 and '10, both times we were outplayed and had to win final test on demand to escape

 

Come on the way people hype those guys, sometimes feel like I live in a parallel universe. Good team but falls short of greatness, only in 2009 and 2010 were we undisputed #1. 

 

Against Kohli's side they might come out on top but both will exchange heavy blows. In SC I needn't bother telling how Shami, Umesh, Bumrah, Ashwin, Jaddu (bench: Ishant, Kuldeep, Bhuvi) compare to Sami, Razzaq, Afridi, Kaneria, Arshad. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Gollum

[raki05]

41 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

The biggest achievement his fans cite was a drawn series in Australia where neither Warne(drug suspension) nor

Biggest achievement was winning series in 2001 against GOAT aus team who was on winning spree of continuous 16 tests. Kohli would have avg 5 in front of Warne when ofkee , Moeen and Rashid own him like no tomorrow.

[Gollum]

11 minutes ago, raki05 said:

Biggest achievement was winning series in 2001 against GOAT aus team who was on winning spree of continuous 16 tests. Kohli would have avg 5 in front of Warne when ofkee , Moeen and Rashid own him like no tomorrow.

Not in India, both got wrecked in the 2016 series. And we have always played wristies well, problem has been offies and SLA, historically. Moreover we chucked our way to win in 2001, as legit as Ajmal's team beating Eng 3-0 in the desert. 

[Stan AF]

 

16 minutes ago, Gollum said:

People overrate our 2000s team a lot:

 

-Whitewash at home against RSA (no spinner)

- Draw in Zim lol

- Loss in RSA 2001, we even lost the unofficial 3rd test, by an innings and 100 runs

- Loss in SL 2001

- Loss in WI 2002 lolololol, in fact dominated...NZ toured there and crushed them the following month

- Humiliation in 2002 NZ

- Humiliated by Aus at home in 2004, end result is flattering

- Drawn series against Pak in 2005 at home, Sami, Razzaq, Kaneria, Afridi, Arshad Khan was their bowling attack...how do you not smash that side?

- 2006 Karachi test humiliation where we lost by 350 runs after reducing them to 40/6 on day 1

- Drawn series at home against Eng in 2006. useless, remember the capitulation against Udal in Mumbai, we won the toss in that match

- Loss in RSA away (2006) blew so many chances and famous fab 4 shat their pants in Cape Town after Jaffer/Karthik's fantastic opening stand

- Loss in Aus 2007-08

- Loss in SL 2008

- Drawn series against RSA at home in '08 and '10, both times we were outplayed and had to win 3rd test on demand to escape

 

Come on the way people hype those guys, sometimes feel like I live in a parallel universe. Good team but falls short of greatness, only in 2009 and 2010 were we undisputed #1. 

 

Against Kohli's side they might come out on top but both will exchange heavy blows. In SC I needn't bother telling how Shami, Umesh, Bumrah, Ashwin, Jaddu (bench: Ishant, Kuldeep, Bhuvi) compare to Sami, Razzaq, Afridi, Kaneria, Arshad. 

 

 

The sides that India faced in that decade no matter whether it was Aus/SA/Eng/NZ/SLor hell even Pakistan were much more superior to the present teams that Kohli is facing. Kohli's team would be enduring series losses and innings defeats now if they had to face similar teams like they did.

 

I'm sorry have to vehemently disagree. The team of the past decade faced a much more superior teams than this one.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Stan AF

[zen]

2 hours ago, Tibarn said:

The biggest achievement his fans cite was a drawn series in Australia where neither Warne(drug suspension) nor McGrath(injured) played in any of the 4 tests. These same people whinge about how our Test series win in Australia doesn't count because Smith and Warner were suspended.

 

Literally the GOAT leg-spinner, and arguably the GOAT fast-bowler don't play a series and such people celebrate a draw...Holy-double standards Batman!

When Mcgrath + Warne play, below is how these guys do:

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia

Involving all of the players GD McGrath (AUS)  or SK Warne (AUS)

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 250

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
V Sehwag	2004-2004	3	6	1	286	155	57.20	409	69.92	1	1	1	42	0
VVS Laxman	1999-2004	9	17	0	777	281	45.70	1272	61.08	2	3	1	125	0
SR Tendulkar	1999-2004	7	14	0	592	126	42.28	1067	55.48	2	4	1	76	3
R Dravid	1999-2004	9	17	0	540	180	31.76	1597	33.81	1	2	2	62	1
SC Ganguly	1999-2004	8	15	0	342	60	22.80	750	45.60	0	1	0	43	0

 

 

There were quite a few high scores in the that series because of Aus relatively weak bowling.  The series was mainly drawn because of the spell (once in a blue moon effort) by Sir Ajit Agarkar who picked up 6 wkts out of nowhere (was being laughed at for his ducks iirc)  

 

In 2018, Ind's bowlers (along with Pujara) did a splendid job to win it  .... I doubt that the team of 2004 could have won it in 2018

 

 

PS

 

In SL in 2008:

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Sri Lanka

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2008 and 1 Jan 2009

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 50

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
V Sehwag	3	6	1	344	201*	68.80	366	93.98	1	1	0	46	5
G Gambhir	3	6	0	310	74	51.66	568	54.57	0	3	0	40	0
VVS Laxman	3	6	1	215	61*	43.00	443	48.53	0	2	0	18	0
R Dravid	3	6	0	148	68	24.66	358	41.34	0	1	0	15	0
SC Ganguly	3	6	0	96	35	16.00	226	42.47	0	0	1	11	2
SR Tendulkar	3	6	0	95	31	15.83	155	61.29	0	0	0	11	0
Harbhajan Singh	3	6	0	65	26	10.83	96	67.70	0	0	0	9	0

 

 

Quote

I am legitimately wondering what other teams could possibly be in conversation. If there is another team, I would like to hear it. 

There was the team of early 70s. In historical ICC rankings, it was ranked #1 for 15 months from April 73 to June 74.

 

Besides the early 70s team, only two Ind teams have held the #1 rank for 12 or more months - Nov 2009 to Aug 2011 (21 months) and the current team Oct 2016 to Apr 2020 (43 months) 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by zen

[raki05]

1 minute ago, Gollum said:

Not in India, both got wrecked in the 2016 series. And we have always played wristies well, problem has been offies and SLA, historically. Moreover we chucked our way to win in 2001, as legit as Ajmal's team beating Eng 3-0 in the desert. 

Offies and sla is also problem of this generation. While I agree that Harbhajan was chucker but you are also missing that he only got a chance while our greates of all time spinner was missing. Besides chucbhajan  was not lone contributor (as series changed due to iconic inning by vvs and his dogmatic 4th inning 50 in last test second inningng)and at start of his career he dint use doosra like he started using in later half of his career and during those time murlidharan, Saqlain and few others have dodgy action. That was the best ever series victory by any Indian team in my opinion as that was against goat  team and before India they have defeated most of the major team in their backyard.  Kohli got owned by zampa as well bothe home and abroad by zampa though in odi.

[Gollum]

20 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

The sides that India faced in that decade no matter whether it was Aus/SA/Eng/NZ/SLor hell even Pakistan were much more superior to the present teams that Kohli is facing. Kohli's team would be enduring series losses and innings defeats now if they had to face similar teams like they did.

 

I'm sorry have to vehemently disagree. The team of the past decade faced a much more superior teams than this one.

That's nostalgia taking over. 

 

That NZ much superior to this NZ really?????? In an all time NZ XI we'll have 4-5 players from current NZ in the team and more in squad.

 

Eng of 2010s better than 2000s, comfortably so. 

 

Aus 2000s better but current team has the better bowling attack (at least match-up wise against us) and the best batsman since Bradman, best HTB since Sehwag.

 

RSA of 2017-18 was bloody strong in home conditions, RSA team that came here in 2015 was class.

 

We beat SL in 2015, strong side, should have been 3-0 if umpiring was half decent.

 

WI now superior to the 2000s version. 

 

BD stronger now than 2000s, not that it matters much. 

 

Pak can't say much since we haven't played each other. But their 2000s side had a weak bowling attack, lacked mental toughness as well. they fielded their best side in the 2011-16 period if you ask me. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Gollum

[Gollum]

2 minutes ago, raki05 said:

Offies and sla is also problem of this generation. While I agree that Harbhajan was chucker but you are also missing that he only got a chance while our greates of all time spinner was missing.

Problem for al generations: Underwood, Iqbal Qasim, Tauseef Ahmed, Price, Udal, Saqlain, Murali, Mendis, Swann, Monty. 

2 minutes ago, raki05 said:

Besides chucbhajan  was not lone contributor 

Major contributor.

[Gollum]

8 minutes ago, raki05 said:

 That was the best ever series victory by any Indian team in my opinion as that was against goat  team and before India they have defeated most of the major team in their backyard.  Kohli got owned by zampa as well bothe home and abroad by zampa though in odi.

Give them credit. But why no praise for this side which beat RSA in 2015, the Proteas had been on a decade long unbeaten run overseas, something which even ATG Aus couldn't accomplish. Sould have been 4-0 if not for Bengaluru weather. 

[Suhaan]

2000s team most probably won't have lost chasing 190s and near 200s target in Eng and SA

Heck even WI barely loose chasing targets around 200

This is unforgiving,for a team which boasts being the best traveling test side ever(Indian)

This team sucks in batting in slight  bowling conditions

But then 2000s team lacked venom in bowling which this team carries to restrict teams cheaply irrespective of conditions

Edited August 25, 2020 by Suhaan

[Gollum]

4 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

2000s team most probably have not lost chasing 190s and near 200s target in Eng and SA

Heck even WI barely loose chasing targets around 200

This is unforgiving,for a team which boasts to be best traveling test side ever(Indian)

This team sucks in batting in slight  bowling conditions

But then 2000s team lacked venom in bowling which this team carries to restrict teams cheaply irrespective of conditions

True but instead of 190-200 that team would be chasing 300-400 maybe even 500+. Still remember 2010 Cape Town test, lovely bowling conditions, India 136 ao in just over a session, RSA 620/4. This bowling attack will never go for that many. Or remember the 2008/10 series against RSA in India where they bowled us for cheap and kept batting and batting. 

[Gollum]

Post 2000 we never had a team like ATG Aus or RSA. But our best XI if you take these 20 years is better than Aus, RSA, Eng. Fab 5 team's batting, Kohli, Che, this team's bowling, unbeatable combo. 

[Suhaan]

As we say in Hindi "unnees bees ka fark hai"

This team is "bees" while that team is "saadhe unnees"(19.5)

[Lone Wolf]

I think our team is good.  The problem lies in Captain lolli & coach.  If both kicked out we may win more series.  Kohli the batsman is overrated.  He failed in Aus where we won last time..  A ton in a losing cause in perth.  Choke in Edgebaston. 

Frankly if we play Gill instead of him & even Mediocre Rahane plays as Captain we will win more away series.  Till kolli is at the helm forget about it.  Guy has no sense how to lead a side & prepare strategy 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Lone Wolf

[raki05]

6 hours ago, Gollum said:

Give them credit. But why no praise for this side which beat RSA in 2015, the Proteas had been on a decade long unbeaten run overseas, something which even ATG Aus couldn't accomplish. Sould have been 4-0 if not for Bengaluru weather. 

Coz that rsa has no Smith, Kallis and comparatively not as strong as ATG Australia was. 

[raki05]

6 hours ago, Gollum said:

Major contributor

Only because our best spinner was missing. Kumble also would have created impact as he was major contributor in our home series victory. So I can't discount that ATG victory because debutant Harbhajan wrack havoc.

[Gollum]

With sensible selection and better coaching personnel this team can do wonders. If you stick with losers like Rahane, Sridhar, Shastri expect disappointment. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Gollum