Current Test Team Under Virat Kohli Is India's Best Ever: Sunil Gavaskar

[raki05]

43 minutes ago, zen said:

Neither Aus nor Eng are discussing this. Similarly Ind, Pak or SL may think something else.  For e.g. not many judge Aus team based on what Aus think, Eng team based on what Eng think, BD team based on what BD thinks, and so on 

 

 

Again the use of highly subjective elements. Note that many teams have come out from difficult situations. It is not something new. For e.g. Aus in 1980s rebuilt under Border to beat WI in mid 90s (it was like a historic event).  Similarly, an Ind team coming out of crisis is nothing new in terms of what other teams have gone through. All teams are eventually judged based on performance

 

Also Steve Waugh has been captain since late 90s. Here the teams in 2000s are being discussed 

 

 

 

They are talking "relatively" though. Gavaskar rates the current team as the greatest mainly based on its bowling strength (a fact). Being greatest among Indian teams does not mean that they cannot lose or have become Bradman's Invincibles. It simply means that they are better than teams in the past  

2015-2019 team would also have a terrific W/L ratio relative to other Ind teams and iirc was at #1 for 43 months 

 

When we say many its just that we try to project our opinion as many. So eventually we trust what cricket experts from various contries feels about certain individuals and teams. Regarding Allan Border he is same like ganguly and that's why he get high regards, just because Steve wagh/ ponting team was great because of individuals played under them birder still regarded as one of their best captain and many other cricketing experts thinks Steve wagh and AB were their greatest test captain and not ponting just because ponting rated highest on stats guru. Gavaskar can say whatever he wants that this team is best ever but it's just cater to the bcci payroll, as for outside world and fans like me Indian team is still not different than past team when  even at their best time where many overseas teams are not at their peak like wi, sa and aus to some extent their sena record is same or poorer than many past teams. 

[Tibarn]

11 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

You don't get to say you can only compare from ponting 2004-07 and not ponting from 2007-2010. If you will praise ponting for the earlier you will have to censure his record in the latter years as well as he was the captain in both the tenures. You can't have it both ways, mate. Point is he lost way too many test matches to be compared to steve waugh. Your post is a non-starter. Steve is easily a much much better captain than ponting.  End of story.

No. You don't get to jump into discussions without reading them and shift goalposts to suit whatever argument you want to make.

 

I never argued that Ponting has an overall better captaincy record than Waugh.  That was a strawman you invented after you, as you yourself admitted, didn't read the post/thread. The discussion was regarding those exact years, and who performed better during those ~8 years. 

 

If you want to argue that Waugh overall for his career had a better captaincy record than Ponting, that is a different discussion. It is irrelevant to my argument or the genesis of this discussion. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Tibarn

[raki05]

11 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

You don't get to say you can only compare from ponting 2004-07 and not ponting from 2007-2010. If you will praise ponting for the earlier you will have to censure his record in the latter years as well as he was the captain in both the tenures. You can't have it both ways, mate. Point is he lost way too many test matches to be compared to steve waugh. Your post is a non-starter. Steve is easily a much much better captain than ponting.  End of story.

Because that's not fit his agenda. Also he ll not give credit to wagh who build the pathetic aus team from scratch till 96 aus was not that dominant and most of greatest aus players debut under stve wagh and Steve wagh took that team to pinacle and stayed there for long time. Ponting got the bana banaya team and once lost those individuals started loosing left, right and center. As is said only people following stats guru rate ponting as better caotain in test than steve wagh. Aus test captains are in this order  wagh>=border >> ponting.

Edited August 26, 2020 by raki05

[Stan AF]

Tibarn if I have to pick a side between waugh and ponting, i will still pick waugh. There was a thread that gollum started where he asked to pick a batting unit of 2000s and i picked waugh side in that thread as well. You can check my post there. Steve waugh's side faced much more competition from India in 2 series and west indies in 1999. He had to face an rampaging ATG lara in 1999, had the balls to drop shane warne in west indies and still won and draw a test series there. He basically built a side from scratch and made it into the world beating side. He just didn't do that in tests.  he did the same thing in ODI's as well who went on to win multiple WC's. Ponting just basically inherited and went on to lose his way as he could not mold the team like steve did. Ask anyone who has built anything worthwhile they'll tell you how difficult it is to create.

 

To answer your question, quality Opposition faced by steve >>> ponting. Waugh aussies >>>>ponting. I don't just go by stats I go by what one has achieved against what odds they faced.

 

P.S: Ponting's legacy is somewhat blemished by the fact that he lost ashes in 2005 and that is something that australia till now hasn't been able to win a series back in england even till 2019.  Even in that 2004 series that we lost to australia it was gilchrist the captain and not ponting, btw. IMO, the previous aussie side did better than the latter ones.

[Tibarn]

Just now, Stan AF said:

Tibarn if I have to pick a side between waugh and ponting, i will still pick waugh. There was a thread that gollum started where he asked to pick a batting unit of 2000s and i picked waugh side in that thread as well. You can check my post there. Steve waugh's side faced much more competition from India in 2 series and west indies in 1999. He had to face an rampaging ATG lara in 1999, had the balls to drop shane warne in west indies and still won and draw a test series there. He basically built a side from scratch and made it into the world beating side. He just didn't do that in tests.  he did the same thing in ODI's as well who went on to win multiple WC's. Ponting just basically inherited and went on to lose his way as he could not mold the team like steve did. Ask anyone who has built anything worthwhile they'll tell you how difficult it is to create.

 

To answer your question, quality Opposition faced by steve >>> ponting. Waugh aussies >>>>ponting. I don't just go by stats I go by what one has achieved against what odds they faced.

 

P.S: Ponting's legacy is somewhat blemished by the fact that he lost ashes in 2005 and that is something that australia till now hasn't been able to win a series back in england even till 2019.  Even in that 2004 series that we lost to australia it was gilchrist the captain and not ponting, btw. IMO, the previous aussie side did better than the latter ones.

That's fair, I don't have a problem with much of anything you say here. 

[Suhaan]

30 minutes ago, raki05 said:

Because that's not fit his agenda. Also he ll not give credit to wagh who build the pathetic aus team from scratch till 96 aus was not that dominant and most of greatest aus players debut under stve wagh and Steve wagh took that team to pinacle and stayed there for long time. Ponting got the bana banaya team and once lost those individuals started loosing left, right and center. As is said only people following stats guru rate ponting as better caotain in test than steve wagh. Aus test captains are in this order  wagh>=border >> ponting.

Brother, actually it wasn't Waugh either who built a legacy

It was all sown by a man called Taylor;waugh bros,warne,Mcgrath starting growing under before passing on the baton to Steve who made it a killing machine

[Real McCoy]

yet another reason that Sunnyji should retire from commentary or give any such talks. he is going senile

[ShoonyaSifar]

Really?

 

If a team, which in the last 3 years, could not win a series vs a much weakened SA, tamely surrendered in England and was humiliated in NZ just a few months back is our best ever test team, it's a travesty and doesn't really put our Test history in a good light. Series win in Aus was great and much to be cherished for but Aussie resurgence immediately after return of Smith and Warner showed us the true value of that win.

 

This is a great team in home conditions and vs weaker opposition. Against even slightly strong opposition and in tougher condition, the batting has simply showed no will to fight and seem to be satisfied with an odd win here and there.

[Lone Wolf]

In an ideal world if we would lose 4-0 in Australia lolli can be sacked but even that looks unlikely as the shameless fellow never allowed anyone younger as VC.  He keeps mediocre Rahane precisely for this purpose as selectors & board will have no other choice to go to him & he continues to shell series after series in SENA.  This is a genius level tactic though. Rohit is useless option in tests & next closest one is Rahul who isn't part of XI..  I hope he gets selected in Australia as a Middle order batsman.  Our Ex cricketers continue to overrate this team like no Tommorow.  Only Gambhir has the balls to call out Brat.. 

I still don't understand how the hell both lolli & Shastri got away so easily after NZ tour humiliation

[coffee_rules]

19 hours ago, Gollum said:

How did I forget mentioning the 2004 home series against NZ? After crushing us in NZ they came to Ind and drew the series with a rubbish side, in fact we had to struggle to avoid innings defeat in the Mohali test. We were so bad at home...NZ, Eng, Pak, RSA 2x drew in Ind (RSA sans spinner, other 3 weakass teams) and in 2000/2004 we suffered home series defeats. 

 

Imagine Kohli's team suffering and barely escaping with a draw in a home series against this side, can you imagine the threads on ICF?

Richardson

Vincent

Styris

Fleming

Astle

McMillan

Hart

Vettori

Wiseman

Tuffey

Butler

 

Willing to bet that even a severely depleted Indian team (think minus Che, Kohli, Jaddu, Shami, Umesh) will need max 4 days to finish off this Kiwi side at home. 

Very disappointing series. After the drubbing we got in 2002, we had a great WC. I thought this series would be revenge series. We almost won the first test  and Laxman saved our asses in the second. Flat pitches, compare that to 2015, India’s wins at home has been on spin heavens where Ashwin ruled. I think after the high in the WC, we were tired and for some reason They also organized a tri- series with Aus and we got drubbed from that team after the WC final loss. Disappointing phase of Indian cricket only highlight being the series win in Pak

Edited August 26, 2020 by coffee_rules

[zen]

8 hours ago, Tibarn said:

never argued that Ponting has an overall better captaincy record than Waugh.  That was a strawman you invented after you, as you yourself admitted, didn't read the post/thread. The discussion was regarding those exact years, and who performed better during those ~8 years. 

 

If you want to argue that Waugh overall for his career had a better captaincy record than Ponting, that is a different discussion. It is irrelevant to my argument or the genesis of this 

 .... Reminds me of these type of conversations: 

 

X: “Some say that blue is the worst color, but I think ....”

Y: So you think blue is the worst color? 
 

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by zen

[zen]

8 hours ago, raki05 said:

When we say many its just that we try to project our opinion as many. So eventually we trust what cricket experts from various contries feels about certain individuals and teams. Regarding Allan Border he is same like ganguly and that's why he get high regards, just because Steve wagh/ ponting team was great because of individuals played under them birder still regarded as one of their best captain and many other cricketing experts thinks Steve wagh and AB were their greatest test captain and not ponting just because ponting rated highest on stats guru.
 

Gavaskar can say whatever he wants that this team is best ever but it's just cater to the bcci payroll, as for outside world and fans like me Indian team is still not different than past team when  even at their best time where many overseas teams are not at their peak like wi, sa and aus to some extent their sena record is same or poorer than many past teams. 

Captaincy is not being discussed but teams under captains are (in certain periods). For e.g. - Border may be a great captain but his team of 80s wasn’t relative to other Aus teams 

 

Mark Taylor’s captaincy was brilliant but his team may not rank that high on a relative scale
 

As for not winning here or there - it is all relatively speaking. SL, BD, Pak, Zim, who do not win much consistently too, would have their best teams as well (and the best team may only be slightly better than other teams)


PS As for Gavaskar‘s comment:

 

“Pointing the difference between other Indian sides of the past and the current side, Gavaskar said the bowling attack comprising Jaspirt Bumrah, Ishant Sharma, Mohammed Shami and R Ashwin, doesn’t depend on conditions.

 

Batting-wise there have been great Indian teams but the current team scores in the bowling department. “This team has the attack to win on any surface. It doesn’t need any help in conditions...they can win on any surface.

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by zen

[cricketfan28]

Kohli will Win.