The seasonal "Sachin was not that great" thread.

[sandeep]

7 hours ago, zen said:

 

Ironically, Dravid's #3 position is being discussed when Ten was not even considered (good enough?) to bat there .... In the MO, Dravid outperforms Tendulkar too when both McGrath & Warne are playing

 

 

#4-7:

View overall figures

Primary team Australia or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies  or Zimbabwe

Opposition team Australia

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1995

Wicketkeeper not as wicketkeeper

Involving all of the players GD McGrath (AUS)  or SK Warne (AUS)

Batting position between 4 and 7

Qualifications batting average greater than or equal to 40  and runs scored greater than or equal to 200  and matches played greater than or equal to 3

Ordered by batting average (descending)

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
BC Lara (WI)	1996-2005	9	16	1	1007	226	67.13	1729	58.24	4	2	0	130	8
KP Pietersen (ENG)	2005-2007	8	16	2	804	158	57.42	1420	56.61	2	5	1	80	13
R Dravid (INDIA)	1999-2004	4	6	0	332	180	55.33	735	45.17	1	1	0	37	1
CL Cairns (NZ)	1997-2001	7	11	0	557	109	50.63	879	63.36	1	4	0	62	15
GP Thorpe (ENG)	1995-2001	8	15	2	598	138	46.00	1060	56.41	2	3	1	82	0
WJ Cronje (SA)	1997-1998	5	9	1	367	88	45.87	819	44.81	0	4	2	38	3
JH Kallis (SA)	1997-2006	9	17	3	624	111	44.57	1424	43.82	1	5	0	76	1
NJ Astle (NZ)	2000-2005	11	21	2	811	156*	42.68	1507	53.81	1	5	1	108	1
SR Tendulkar (INDIA)	1999-2004	7	14	0	592	126	42.28	1067	55.48	2	4	1	76	3
PD Collingwood (ENG)	2005-2007	6	12	1	450	206	40.90	1054	42.69	1	1	0	46	2
HP Tillakaratne (SL)	1995-1996	3	6	0	245	119	40.83	592	41.38	1	1	0	17	0

Player 1 scored 592 runs in 7 tests, with 2 hundreds and 4 50s.  Player 2 scored 332 in 4 tests with 1 hundred and 1 50.  Which one "outperformed" the other?

 

Gotta love the 'spin' though.

[sandeep]

23 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

In their urge to counter the infamous SRT fanatics who name call other great batsmen, the SRT haters have become just as demented .

+10000

 

Its that desire to distinguish oneself from the "mindless herd" that makes them twist facts.  "I'm different, I'm no fanboy - look at me, I don't flinch from taking shots at a so-called great".  So what if the 'facts' have to be massaged and cherrypicked.

[sandeep]

7 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

Whenever SRT is criticized, Dravid gets a lot of heat.

Only if the 'critic' fabricates silliness to hype up Dravid relative to Tendy, when the unambiguous reality is that Dravid is and was a Bajaj compared to a BMW.

[sandeep]

20 hours ago, zen said:

though maintained that consistency longer than Tendulkar 

 

Ponting faded to black within a season of his decline.  Couldn't hack in in international cricket.  And then had an epiphany about Tendulkar's greatness when he experienced first-hand the degree of difficulty of attempting to maintain "consistency" as an international test batsman when you are no longer in your prime.  I can't find that video, but there's one where he specifically talks about this point, and how people have no idea about how difficult it is to maintain consistency in the 2nd half of your career.  

 

But again, you can throw out any random baseless claims, as we see on this thread, you will find enough bakras to swallow it.

[Jimmy Cliff]

5 minutes ago, sandeep said:

+10000

 

Its that desire to distinguish oneself from the "mindless herd" that makes them twist facts.  "I'm different, I'm no fanboy - look at me, I don't flinch from taking shots at a so-called great".  So what if the 'facts' have to be massaged and cherrypicked.

 

Look ma, I reject the selfish midget's scratchy innings at the SR of 55. I am an unbiased "neutral" who'd rather watch the highlights of the original selfish midget crawling his way to 170 at a SR of 43. In 4K! 

[coffee_rules]

14 hours ago, sandeep said:

He did.  Which is why I responded in his style.  In the thread above, I have already explained that a more objective comparison would be for both player's 'best years' - take 10 to 12 years starting from their 2nd or 3rd year in international cricket, against common opponents.  When you do that, Tendulkar comes away with the higher average, especially away from home.  

 

When someone is clearly engaging in dishonest 'discussion', you sometimes need to give an answer in their language.  More than a decade ago, on a "different" ICF, there was a guy named Anil, who was a mod, and wrote up an 'article' claiming Agarkar is better than a McGrath or Akram, based on ODI SR - and I responded with a very similar write-up comparing the ODI SR of Symonds to Tendy.  All in good fun.  Some old'timers on here might remember, maybe @coffee_rules ?  Maybe a couple of others who date back to that time.

Oh! That’s the connection , I remember Agarkar being better than Waqarakram. 

[coffee_rules]

23 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Player 1 scored 592 runs in 7 tests, with 2 hundreds and 4 50s.  Player 2 scored 332 in 4 tests with 1 hundred and 1 50.  Which one "outperformed" the other?

 

Gotta love the 'spin' though.

Of which 1 100 is 180 in Kolkata FTH pitch  

[sandeep]

8 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Oh! That’s the connection , I remember Agarkar being better than Waqarakram. 

Remember the "dropagarkar" theorem?  The pattern of how he always took a few wickets in his first few games after being dropped, and then steadily got worse...

[Gollum]

1 hour ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

People come up with these arbitrary stats as some sort of Gotcha! moments for SRT but suddenly go quiet when asked to apply the same criteria to other great bats. So for instance this MOTS record applies for Sachin but doesn't apply for Lara who has just 3 MOTS  (compared to 7 for Chanders) with zero MOTS in a winning cause. Same applies to the 4th innings stats that mean something when it comes to SRT but doesn't when it comes to Lara and Sehwag.

Lara, Sehwag are not in GOAT race in my book. I don't rate Lara as high as most here. 1-2 flaws ok, but forget about GOAT title with multiple black marks and that applies to SRT as well (choking, no bumper series, 4th innings record, dubious series/match-winning ability, low peak rating, being first among equals rather than undisputed best......). 

 

I try to be as unbiased as possible , don't even rate Federer as GOAT even though I adore him and hate Nole. GOAT status should mean something!!!! 

Quote

On the similar lines, stats involving x/y/z bowlers matter for SRT but Gavaskar getting out-batted by tailenders against the likes of Lilllee and his phateechar record against the WIPQ doesn't. So on and so forth.

Gavaskar is overrated, when have I denied that?

Quote

Amongst post war batsmen, one can find similar chinks in the records for almost all of them. Just because the usual suspects chose to ignore them for other bats and emphasize them for SRT doesn't mean the other batsmen are automatically better. In their urge to counter the infamous SRT fanatics who name call other great batsmen, the SRT haters have become just as demented .

If other batsmen are hailed as Gods sure we need to counter 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Gollum

[Gollum]

40 minutes ago, sandeep said:

+10000

 

Its that desire to distinguish oneself from the "mindless herd" that makes them twist facts.  "I'm different, I'm no fanboy - look at me, I don't flinch from taking shots at a so-called great".  So what if the 'facts' have to be massaged and cherrypicked.

One can be an ATG as well as overrated, true in every sport, every discipline. 

[putrevus]

Sachin greatest achievement was his longevity.He was always consistent without ever being imposing.He somehow got the tag in 1990s that he was carrying the lineup. He did that in odis but never did that in tests.

 

 

[sandeep]

7 minutes ago, Gollum said:

One can be an ATG as well as overrated, true in every sport, every discipline. 

I'm perfectly fine with criticism of Tendy, highlighting of his limitations and flaws - he has plenty, just like any sports person.   

• Tendy was poor in the 'daddy hundreds' metric - didn't even have one for 15+ years of his career - no arguments. 
• In his 2.5x times length of a 'normal' batsman's career, he had more than his share of moments where he looked 'frail' in high-pressure situations - not unreasonable.  
• For an acknowledged ATG, his test average is on the lower side - sure.  

 

But 'overrated' is an utterly subjective term, and uselessly so.  Let's think about it for a minute, what do you mean exactly when you deploy that word? That some folks "somewhere" rate him too high? And based on those mysterious folks, you feel compelled to drag him down a few notches?  And would deploy flawed stats to do so?  That's a silly reactionary take on things, and quite illogical at that.  

 

 

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

He was always consistent without ever being imposing.

[putrevus]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

[Gollum]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

And based on those mysterious folks, you feel compelled to drag him down a few notches?  And would deploy flawed stats to do so?  That's a silly reactionary take on things, and quite illogical at that.  

I am not dragging him down, I believe he isn't in (test) GOAT race but still a top tier ATG. Pretty objective don't you think?

 

Regarding the flawed stats part dunno whether you are talking about zen, I skipped most of the posts in previous 4 pages, sick and tired of this topic tbh. 

[putrevus]

Did Sachin deserve to play 200 tests. Noway he should have played 200s test.It is insult to Indian team to let this guy play 200 tests.

[Jimmy Cliff]

27 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Lara, Sehwag are not in GOAT race in my book. I don't rate Lara as high as most here. 1-2 flaws ok, but forget about GOAT title with multiple black marks and that applies to SRT as well (choking, no bumper series, 4th innings record, dubious series/match-winning ability, low peak rating, being first among equals rather than undisputed best......). 

 

I try to be as unbiased as possible , don't even rate Federer as GOAT even though I adore him and hate Nole. GOAT status should mean something!!!! 

Gavaskar is overrated, when have I denied that?

If other batsmen are hailed as Gods sure we need to counter 

 

There is no debate for the status of GOAT batsman in Tests. This is more about the hierarchy after the GOAT .  But in general, batsmen who have excelled in multiple formats receive more love than the others by casual fans. We have seen this with Viv, Kohli and ABDV as well. Nothing unusual with SRT.

[zen]

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

Player 1 scored 592 runs in 7 tests, with 2 hundreds and 4 50s.  Player 2 scored 332 in 4 tests with 1 hundred and 1 50.  Which one "outperformed" the other?

 

Gotta love the 'spin' though.

Is that a serious post? As mentioned before, once a min cut off is identified, the separation is based on performance per innings metrics 

 

332 in 6 innings, avg  55 > 592 in 14, avg 42 (Sachin can even have 800 runs in 20 innings at an avg of 40, it does not change anything)

 

Good to see that the ppl who worship him continue to live in an antiquated world of just seeing runs and adding up 100s without having a clue on how stats work or are explained (no wonder how you guys get fooled into the hype). The above post of yours - asking based on 5xx runs, is comical to put it mildly 

Edited January 5, 2021 by zen

[Gambit]

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

Player 1 scored 592 runs in 7 tests, with 2 hundreds and 4 50s.  Player 2 scored 332 in 4 tests with 1 hundred and 1 50.  Which one "outperformed" the other?

 

Gotta love the 'spin' though.

 And this has been done by excluding other batting positions for others like Dravid. This is some level of creativity to find some permutation/combination to show Tendulkar as inferior.  Wonder how Dravid fared in Australia against McGrath and Warne.   The andhbhakti is real.

[zen]

22 minutes ago, Gambit said:

 And this has been done by excluding other batting positions for others like Dravid. This is some level of creativity to find some permutation/combination to show Tendulkar as inferior.  Wonder how Dravid fared in Australia against McGrath and Warne.   The andhbhakti is real.

Tendulkar has no track record in top order so Dravid already wins there. In the MO, Dravid is ahead as portrayed in that case 

 

If you are so concerned with an apples to apples comparison in MO, you should have prayed more at the Tendulkar temple to give him the courage to at least play a few games in the top order and do better when he enters at a team score of 100 or less  

Edited January 5, 2021 by zen