Spin friendly pitches: India's nemesis

[ShoonyaSifar]

Remember the curator wanted a grassy and green pitch, which would have suited our bowlers the best. Despite doing well in similar conditions abroad, for some reason our captain LOL developed cold feet and got all the grass shaved off from the pitch. Do not blame curator for the folly of our captain joker.

 

Poor curator has been forced to go for an underprepared track for the 2nd test. Most likely this again will backfire on sand then we will have our coach and captain going ballistic on the curator for not doing enough to help the home team!

[mishra]

4 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

In the last 3 years and a bit, starting 2018, our fast bowlers have been great  ... not just decent.

 

Ishant averages 19 ... Umesh averages 19 ... Bumrah averages 21 ... Shami averages 24.  Two of the above are playing 

England have Anderson averages 21 ... Broad averages 22 ... Woakes averages 24.  Only 1 will play. 

 

This fearing foreign pacers saga should be over now. We have the best fast bowlers in the world.  The other teams should be afraid of us. And it will happen only when we believe in our own abilities.

 

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=40;qualval1=wickets;spanmax1=12+Feb+2021;spanmin1=01+Jan+2018;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

 

 

I have no doubt how good our pace is. But I do not want to loose our home advantage. Our record in SENA clearly suggest that we are at best competetive. But just like SENA trips our Issue has been our batting against grade b spinners and selection.Chepu summed it very beautifully for final test. Retiring hutst was not a option (ie I can see attitude, motivation, team spirit).

In Chennai, We saw Sundar bat, we saw Pant bat but how much did our top order score relative to English top order in first inning (Englnd top 5- 420 vs India top 5 120). A gap of 300 runs. There is absolutely no excuse for such a poor performance of our bats to gift wickets to Bess and Archer. You can make pitches whatever you want but if your bats bat like individual players like they did in Chennai, there is no hope. All it will happen is right now Kohli PR machinery blamed spinners, Pant and Rahane. Then they would have blamed pacers and Rahane (IMO Rahane was singled out because he is threat to Captain Kohli). I for a moment am not ready to believe that 11 players are playing as team and are happy with Captain Kohli leading them.

 

So lets fix what is broken and not break what is absolutely perfect

Edited February 12, 2021 by mishra

[express bowling]

22 hours ago, Clarke said:

 

Biggggg difference between the two. Chennai was very manageable for the first 3.5 days and we could have drawn it even in absence of some key players. Pune was crazy, no doubting that and we don't have that earlier batting quality to survive that. 

 

The tracks we had success on didn't regularly have this helpful for quicks attribute other than the odd one such as NZ (Bhuvi) & Aus (Yadav). How many wickets with new ball vs reverse swing ? I recall more of the latter especially Shami & Yadav producing matchwinning performances. Even Ashwin would pop up with the new ball once in a while! How many overall wickets did we capture with quicks vs Ash/Jad, both sets being of premium quality ? Again think its the latter who weighed more. 

 

With Eng I think they have the fast bowling quality to trouble our batters with some assistance but certainly not spinners if we can show the form of their last tour. 

 

 

Last 10 yrs: https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;host=6;orderby=wickets;spanmax1=12+Feb+2021;spanmin1=12+Feb+2011;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

Last 5 yrs: https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;host=6;orderby=wickets;spanmax1=12+Feb+2021;spanmin1=12+Feb+2016;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

Even for opposition top wicket takers are generally spinners. It can't be that we produce sporting tracks and all opposition quicks go missing.

 

 

 

 

I am talking about the last 4 years, starting 2017.

 

Among Indians, the pacers have the lowest 3 averages. 142 wickets by pacers  vs  163 wickets by spinners.

 

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=1;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=10;qualval1=wickets;spanmin1=01+Jan+2017;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

Some of those wickets maybe by reverse swing ... but that is a style of pace bowling too. There were many wickets by channel balls and bouncers too.

 

The main difference between the last test match pitch vs most of those Indian pitches from 2017 onwards, was that those decks had a bit of pace and bounce atleast. 

 

Edited February 13, 2021 by express bowling

[Lone Wolf]

Perfect pitch for the situation..  Surprisingly some help for pacers..  More pace in it.  Not slow but fast turn which Ashwin likes. 

[Jay]

2 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Perfect pitch for the situation..  Surprisingly some help for pacers..  More pace in it.  Not slow but fast turn which Ashwin likes. 

you are confusing me. pitch is pacy or not? i am sweating here hehe. fast turning pitch ? so thats good for us. how do you think england would have fared had they batted first?

[mishra]

34 minutes ago, Jay said:

you are confusing me. pitch is pacy or not? i am sweating here hehe. fast turning pitch ? so thats good for us. how do you think england would have fared had they batted first?

It looks rank turner. India in second innings should outscore englands first inning total. If thats a measure of home advantage 

[Nikhil_cric]

I think foreign spinners have simply become a lot better. Look at Leach's pitch map, for instance. Very accurate and bowls a good pace too. I would disagree with the assessment that pace is our strength at home. It is important- especially the skiddy pace and reverse of yadav and shami but it was the combo of ash-jadeja that has made us a dominant force at home. We are missing all 3 of shami, yadav and Jadeja and that was a vital blow to our chances. 

 

I think we need flat batting low bounce SC style wickets where batsmen wont be punished for playing strokes again. The wicket should  crumble maybe only in the last 2 sessions or so but remain consistently good for batting. Right now we are not out batting quality sides and that's the big concern. 

[Trichromatic]

Yeah, we keep losing matches after matches on pace friendly pitches, but let's prepare those types of tracks. 

[Lone Wolf]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

you are confusing me. pitch is pacy or not? i am sweating here hehe. fast turning pitch ? so thats good for us. how do you think england would have fared had they batted first?

Yes it is turning quick..  Will be proper dustbowl on day 2.  I think Eng would have ended with 260/8 if they had batted first.  Ashwin Kuldeep would enjoy this pitch.  Axar as well

[express bowling]

18 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Yeah, we keep losing matches after matches on pace friendly pitches, but let's prepare those types of tracks. 

 

 

We don't lose on pace friendly tracks.

 

We lose only when the ball is swinging ... like in England and NZ.

 

We have just won 2 test series in Australia. Won on the 2 quickest pitches at Melbourne and Brisbane.

 

We won the 3rd test against SA on a quick bouncy track at Johannesburg in 2018. Would have won the first test too if we had taken a bit of time to play a practice match and prepare properly.

 

We defeated Australia on a fast, bouncy track at Dharamsala in 2017.

 

We defeated NZ on a green track at Kolkata in late 2016.

 

 

 

 

[Number]

Even our spinners find bouncy tracks more helpful.

[Number]

Duplicate post.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Number

[Rightarmfast]

1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

Yeah, we keep losing matches after matches on pace friendly pitches, but let's prepare those types of tracks. 

Do we? Check stats. We are notorious when the ball swings.. as already mentioned above. In England and New Zealand. 
it will also be interesting to see the stats of indian batsmen against spinners 

[New guy]

12 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Yeah, we keep losing matches after matches on pace friendly pitches, but let's prepare those types of tracks. 

No we don't, I don't know which matches you have been watching. We lose where ball swings, not on pace or bouncy tracks, where both our batsmen and bowlers do really well 

 

On Indian pitches, in last 5+ years we have our pacers take over 65% wickets, which is the reason for our home dominance. Not spinners 

Edited February 14, 2021 by New guy

[mishra]

On 2/13/2021 at 12:46 PM, mishra said:

It looks rank turner. India in second innings should outscore englands first inning total. If thats a measure of home advantage 

So , India in second inning has massively outscored first inning total of England. IMO this is only and most important stat of home advantage. I am absolutely against giving away such home advantage just for sake of prooving or showing off our pacers are brilliant.  So all pace lovers, foreign bats are slightly better when it comes to play on pace frndly wickets

[putrevus]

On 2/13/2021 at 9:41 PM, New guy said:

No we don't, I don't know which matches you have been watching. We lose where ball swings, not on pace or bouncy tracks, where both our batsmen and bowlers do really well 

 

On Indian pitches, in last 5+ years we have our pacers take over 65% wickets, which is the reason for our home dominance. Not spinners 

Where did you get those stats, home dominiation is due to allround greatness Ashwin and Jadeja. fast bowlers have supported well but they are never main acts in India.

[express bowling]

10 hours ago, mishra said:

 I am absolutely against giving away such home advantage just for sake of prooving or showing off our pacers are brilliant.  So all pace lovers, foreign bats are slightly better when it comes to play on pace frndly wickets

 

3 hours ago, putrevus said:

Where did you get those stats, home dominiation is due to allround greatness Ashwin and Jadeja. fast bowlers have supported well but they are never main acts in India.

 

 

Stats show a vastly different picture in the last 4 years

 

In tests in India ....

 

3 best averages are by our pacers 

 

144 wickets by pacers vs 169 wickets by spinners.

 

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=1;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin2=10;qualval2=wickets;spanmax1=15+Feb+2021;spanmin1=01+Jan+2017;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

11 hours ago, mishra said:

So , India in second inning has massively outscored first inning total of England. IMO this is only and most important stat of home advantage. I am absolutely against giving away such home advantage just for sake of prooving or showing off our pacers are brilliant.  So all pace lovers, foreign bats are slightly better when it comes to play on pace frndly wickets

I honestly don't have much problem with spin friendly wickets for England..  But we also need to look in 1st inns Rohit played a blinder & then Pant's blitz took us to 329 in 2nd inns Ash & Rat did the job with better work from Tail this time.  So there is an element of risk.  Gill needs to convert his starts come next game as Pujara & Rahane are highly inconsistent against spin & Kohli as well. 

D/N game won't turn this much surely.  It'll be interesting to see which kinda pitch they use.  4th test I reckon would be a Turner yet again. 

[Jay]

15 hours ago, mishra said:

So , India in second inning has massively outscored first inning total of England. IMO this is only and most important stat of home advantage. I am absolutely against giving away such home advantage just for sake of prooving or showing off our pacers are brilliant.  So all pace lovers, foreign bats are slightly better when it comes to play on pace frndly wickets

Yep what it tells me is that Indian Pacers are the best in the world purely because they play in the toughest conditions for fast bowling. That gives us an advantage when we tour overseas with out ATG fast bowlers.

 

 

Never ever compromise our spin advantage. Never. We will always be a spin friendly cricketing nation. Only problem for other teams now is India's ability to produce world class fast bowlers as well. 

 

[Jay]

3 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

I honestly don't have much problem with spin friendly wickets for England..  But we also need to look in 1st inns Rohit played a blinder & then Pant's blitz took us to 329 in 2nd inns Ash & Rat did the job with better work from Tail this time.  So there is an element of risk.  Gill needs to convert his starts come next game as Pujara & Rahane are highly inconsistent against spin & Kohli as well. 

D/N game won't turn this much surely.  It'll be interesting to see which kinda pitch they use.  4th test I reckon would be a Turner yet again. 

Turner only cause we are missing our best bowlers and all rounder.