Playing 2 spinners “overseas” a concern

[Jay]

15 hours ago, zen said:

Buddy,  Kuldeep and Sunder, along with probably even Vihari, have done well in Aus too 

 

Proposition is simple - if conditions are how like Gavaskar describes, playing 2 spinners may have a case 

 

If not (esp. in cloudy and rainy conditions), Ind would  need the 4th seamer (all good quality bowlers)… Playing Jadeja (or Ashwin) at 7, if they are batting well, is ok and a different discussion 

Buddy if only the stick man pandu was fit, we could have used him at 7. Followed by thakur at 8. He'll even vijay shankar is a good option for english conditions. But of course indian team selectors are poor planners and only care about which player is more marketable. 

[Jay]

4 hours ago, zen said:

Ideally, team selection should depend  upon the quality of players you currently have and not on set formulas (unless picking an ATG team which provides many options). 
 

One of Ind’s key strengths is its pace bowling and in pace bowler friendly conditions, I would prefer to strengthen the strength esp. considering the quality of pacers (don’t forget teams like WI played 4 pacers too). The quality of the 4th pacer and his ability to influence the game with the ball is better than what Ind’s batting options can at #7-8. 
 

I have mentioned reasons in multiple posts on this thread including the post you quoted. In short, to keep a sustained attack to restrict NZ at a low total, off setting the need for a theoretical batting depth (it is not like a VVS is not being considered). 
 

Also don’t forget that in the last 6-7 tests in Eng and NZ that Ind played in, its only win came through the performance of the 4th pacer. The chances of 1 out of 4 pacers having a great game is higher than 1 out of 3 if conditions favor such bowlers. 

If it is a hot and dry like Gavaskar said, I am ok if Ind plays 2 spinners as they can play a relatively more active role too. 

Don't know where gavaskar is getting hot and dry from. It's England. We don't need more than one spinner. Play thakur or panda. Period. 

[rkt.india]

18 hours ago, sandeep said:

This is utter nonsense.  Ignorance.  Jadeja has bowled very well away from home, especially as 4th bowler.  And Ashwin bowled extremely well before he got injured during the last England tour.  His dismissal of Alistair Cook was quality, and last I checked there were no "rank turners" in that series.  Unless you have some special cherry-picking spy glasses on.  

Ashwin was pretty poor last time in England. Playing four pacers is never a wrong thing in England and it's still June. It's going to be cold and cloudy.

[rkt.india]

18 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

These stats have bothered me for a long time.

Jaddu and Ashwin's stats are exaggerated by rank Turners.

[putrevus]

14 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Jaddu and Ashwin's stats are exaggerated by rank Turners.

Ashwin has been excellent in many countires not just India. Could he have done better in England and South Africa yes but he is improving. Jadeja will walk into this team as no7 , how is that bad option on any wicket than a guy like Pandya. The worst they can do is share the bowling load from three pacers which they can do better than any bits and pieces players.. 

[Jay]

Lol at the underrating of jadeja and ahswin. Both are goat tier bowlers. Get real with times. 

 

Jadeja is a legit top 2 all-rounder in the world. Look at his figures. Plus he is clutch as hell.

 

 

Give them credit ffs. 

 

India prepared turners for maybe 4 tests at best. Maybe 5. Rest of the wickets were on good pitches. Get out of here with the Turner balderdash. 

 

Goat tier calibre bowlers. That's what they are. I would pick both over chucker Murali and Warne overall too. 

 

If anything, Warner flopped in India where conditions are supposedly conducive for spin bowling. 

 

Katta meets. Choots will say anything to degrade our greats. Kuch bhi lol.

[rkt.india]

17 hours ago, putrevus said:

Ashwin has been excellent in many countires not just India. Could he have done better in England and South Africa yes but he is improving. Jadeja will walk into this team as no7 , how is that bad option on any wicket than a guy like Pandya. The worst they can do is share the bowling load from three pacers which they can do better than any bits and pieces players.. 

Two spinners are overkill in SENA countries. It's that simple. If you depend on spinners to pick wickets, you are not going to win matches in SENA.  

 

[rkt.india]

16 hours ago, Jay said:

Lol at the underrating of jadeja and ahswin. Both are goat tier bowlers. Get real with times. 

 

Jadeja is a legit top 2 all-rounder in the world. Look at his figures. Plus he is clutch as hell.

 

 

Give them credit ffs. 

 

India prepared turners for maybe 4 tests at best. Maybe 5. Rest of the wickets were on good pitches. Get out of here with the Turner balderdash. 

 

Goat tier calibre bowlers. That's what they are. I would pick both over chucker Murali and Warne overall too. 

 

If anything, Warner flopped in India where conditions are supposedly conducive for spin bowling. 

 

Katta meets. Choots will say anything to degrade our greats. Kuch bhi lol.

In last few years, we are seeing rank Turners in every series. In 2016 against England, we didn't have rank Turners, saw batsmen scoring triple and double hundreds and Ashwin averaged 30 in that series. That's the right indicator.

[Jay]

44 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

In last few years, we are seeing rank Turners in every series. In 2016 against England, we didn't have rank Turners, saw batsmen scoring triple and double hundreds and Ashwin averaged 30 in that series. That's the right indicator.

But that wasn't prime ashwin.

[Gollum]

20 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Jaddu and Ashwin's stats are exaggerated by rank Turners.

If you apply this green ghetto logic you must also admit that our batsmen who average so high at home are superhumans. Can't have it both ways. Kohli, Pujara average in 60s. Mayank and Rohit in 90s, also you have guys like Pant and KLR, each one of them individually better than Bradman, Sobers, Lara, SRT, Greg Chappell etc. I assume. In any other era this Indian team would be scoring 1000 runs per innings at home? 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Gollum

[rkt.india]

14 minutes ago, Gollum said:

If you apply this green ghetto logic you must also admit that our batsmen who average so high at home are superhumans. Can't have it both ways. Kohli, Pujara average in 60s. Mayank and Rohit in 90s, also you have guys like Pant and KLR, each one of them individually better than Bradman, Sobers, Lara, SRT, Greg Chappell etc. I assume. In any other era this Indian team would be scoring 1000 runs per innings at home? 

Yes our batsmen are good at home and opposition teams lack decent spinners but our batsmen have struggled in recent times to score big runs like last England series. Couldn't play O'Keefe before that. Apart from Lyon, other SENA countries don't have spinners. It's the same case of Indian bowling struggling overseas on seaming wickets in 90s in SA, NZ, Aus, England as we lacked fast bowlers to make use of those conditions.

[Gollum]

8 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Yes our batsmen are good at home and opposition teams lack decent spinners but our batsmen have struggled in recent times to score big runs like last England series. Couldn't play O'Keefe before that. Apart from Lyon, other SENA countries don't have spinners. It's the same case of Indian bowling struggling overseas on seaming wickets in 90s in SA, NZ, Aus, England as we lacked fast bowlers to make use of those conditions.

Still some of our guys average like Bradman at home. 

 

Quality of spin bowling now isn't as high as it was in 90s and early 00s (still RSA, Eng, WI didn't have half-decent spinners) but certainly better than 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, late 2000s etc. 

 

I know you like arguing just for the sake of it but there is no way Lahori logic will pass the test here. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Gollum

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

But that wasn't prime ashwin.

What? Ashwin was 30 then. How wasn't he prime then.

[Jay]

51 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

What? Ashwin was 30 then. How wasn't he prime then.

Everyone peaks at different stages. Current ashwin is the best. 

[zen]

Ah ha, hot and dry weather. Last I checked cricinfo, the match is impacted due to rain

[Trichromatic]

10 hours ago, rkt.india said:

In last few years, we are seeing rank Turners in every series. In 2016 against England, we didn't have rank Turners, saw batsmen scoring triple and double hundreds and Ashwin averaged 30 in that series. That's the right indicator.

 

Jaddu took 26 wickets at average of 25 in same series. He also averaged 37 with bat.

 

There were no rank turners in 2013 Aus series at home and Jadeja took 24 wickets at avg of 17.

 

2017 Aus series had turners and he took 25 wickets at avg of 18.

 

No turner in 2016 series v NZ and he took 14 wickets at avg of 24.

 

Jadeja has done better than what many spinners could do on flat tracks.

[Ankit_sharma03]

8 hours ago, rkt.india said:

What? Ashwin was 30 then. How wasn't he prime then.

prime isnt related to age, its when ur playing at ur best which cud be at any age. Kumble hit his peak at 33 from 2003-04 tour down under

Currently ashwin is at his peak

 

11 hours ago, rkt.india said:

we didn't have rank Turners, saw batsmen scoring triple and double hundreds and Ashwin averaged 30 in that series. That's the right indicator.

 

those 1.5 yr he was struggling with sports hernia

11 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Two spinners are overkill in SENA countries. It's that simple. If you depend on spinners to pick wickets, you are not going to win matches in SENA.  

 

 

No written rule- 3 are enough and 4th one is mostly an all rounder which is where its jaddu vs pandya now and Jaddu as a test all rounder is ahead then pandya now 

they arent just 2 spinner...they provide extra with bat . Among which ashwin is one who has been bowling better in 1st innings overseas. 

[maniac]

On a bowling friendly pitch 5th bowler is a bonus. 3 seamers + a spinner is perfect. It so happens that we have that 5th option that can bat and is a world class bowler. So playing both ash and Jadeja is alright. Recently England went with Joe root as the sole spinner while Nzl had Patel.

[mishra]

I think we need a bat in lineup. Saves our arse. 3 pacers will do all damage.  spinner is just going to be needed to keep things tight from one end . Drop Ash i would say and ouck a bat. Problem is, kohli only went with 5 bats. Not sure if Hanuma gives me confidence. I would rather have had someone like agarwal, rahul or Shaw there. I am certain, kohli has fked up one more time. Only rain can save us

[putrevus]

12 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Two spinners are overkill in SENA countries. It's that simple. If you depend on spinners to pick wickets, you are not going to win matches in SENA.  

 

Nobody is depending on them to pick wickets, How is Pandya who rarely takes wickets better option than Jadeja  Jadeja can provide much better batting option in tests than Pandya.They are replacing Pandya with Jadeja. Ashwin is playing as a spinner.