Decline of India Pakistan Hockey

[Singh bling]

In the Olympics thread many posters were saying that astro turf was the main culprit behind decline and White men were responsible for it. So I decided to search Hockey history. Found this article on Pakistani site about hockey history.

 

https://www.dawn.com/news/1112245

 

India lost 1973 final to Netherland on grass. 

 

India won only 1 world cup in 1975

 

India was good team between 1971-75( As the article mention only world cups

 

India failed to qualify for semi's when world cup was hosted in Mumbai even though event was played on grass

 

India was just another team after 1975 even without astro turf.

 

Pakistan reached final in 1990 and won 1994 WC on astro turf , even 1984 gold in Olympic was on astro turf.

 

So the claims that india would have been a world beater without astro turf is false. Astro turf may be was powerful blow to badly declining hockey.

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Singh bling

[Gollum]

Hockey stick design change rule to harm dribblers. Abolition of offside rule, just long aerial balls to feed the attackers parked near the goalkeeper nowadays, also long hard hits are so effective which plays to power game of the top teams now . No offside especially was a killer move since we were good at dribbling the ball from one end to the other, plus short passes to build our attack unlike gora teams. 

 

Pakistan hockey was very well funded in 80s and 90s, Air Marshal Nur Khan was a terrific administrator and Pak had more money in the sport, more astroturfs, their economy was in a much better state than India's till mid-2000s. Now India is doing better in administration, astroturfs, money, etc and Pak is far behind. Goras took the game to the next level by late 90s adopting the Dutch model and tactics/strategy, they were beatable in 70s, 80s, even 90s, but last 20 years they have perfected their style.

 

Can't deny the effect of switch to astroturf, since players in poor countries learn the game on natural grass and switch to artifical turf at a more advanced age, so never entirely comfortable on the surface. Pak did well initially because they were so bloody good, comparable to 50s and 60s Indian sides in their skills/mentality. What Pak accomplished in 80s and early 90s (Shahbaz Senior, Maradona of hockey) is special, their early 80s team under Hassan Sardar is one of the greatest teams to have taken the field, their golden generation. To win like that when rules were loaded against them, respect. 

 

India's hockey was declining (or maybe weaker generation, tough to say, all teams have ebbs and flows) but with the old rules we would still have won big tournaments...not dominant like earlier sides but not zero silverware/medals either. With old rules Pak hockey wouldn't have declined so much post-90s, they had Sohail Abbas in their team in the 2000s and yet couldn't win anything of significance. Now they are behind teams like Wales, Scotland and fighting with Austria to stay in top 20, they are bad but not that bad!!! The hockey we attempt to play now is against our strengths/instincts/feel/psyche...imagine making a rule to ensure South African cricket team must play only spinners, no quicks!!!!!

 

Both India and Pakistan are sufferers. I don't like Pakistan but have much greater hate for goras who have been running world hockey for many years now. Both South Asian countries have a common enemy here, much bigger threat since neither of our hockey feds can harm the other anywhere near the same extent as goras. 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Gollum

[Pakistan]

It died on days India & Pakistan won their respective ODI World Cups.

[Khota]

Indian Hockey is doing OK. Pakistan is dead. gane requires fast pace and strength. Indians are slowly catching up.

[maniac]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

 

What Pak accomplished in 80s and early 90s (Shahbaz Senior, Maradona of hockey) is special, their early 80s team under Hassan Sardar is one of the greatest teams to have taken the field, their golden generation. To win like that when rules were loaded against them, respect. 

 

I wonder if they figured out a loophole to surprise the gora teams like they did in cricket if you know what I mean:( reverse swing via Ball tampering if you want me to be direct)

 

I mean sure it is cheating/ bending the rules a little but they did figure out an actual science. Respect there too (seriously no sarcasm I swear). Today goras eventutally figured out and everyone reverse swings the ball now and they use more acceptable loopholes.

 

There is it probably a hockey equivalent of that too but since it doesn’t get enough coverage, we probably would never know :)

 

 

 

 

[Gollum]

38 minutes ago, maniac said:

I wonder if they figured out a loophole to surprise the gora teams like they did in cricket if you know what I mean:( reverse swing via Ball tampering if you want me to be direct)

 

I mean sure it is cheating/ bending the rules a little but they did figure out an actual science. Respect there too (seriously no sarcasm I swear). Today goras eventutally figured out and everyone reverse swings the ball now and they use more acceptable loopholes.

 

There is it probably a hockey equivalent of that too but since it doesn’t get enough coverage, we probably would never know :)

No, they were just exceptionally good, many rate the 1978-84 Pak team as one of the GOAT contenders (cricket equivalent will be WI cricket team of that era). Golden generation, were lucky to have 4-5 of their greatest players play together (even all time world XI will be well represented from that batch), and a fearless generation that enjoyed bullying the goras, far cry from today's timid Pakistanis. They were the gold standard for others to match, Oltmans (ex-India coach from Netherlands, very important figure in Indian hockey who helped reverse our slide to minnow league) himself said that the Dutch in the 90s rose to change hockey forever because they wanted to emulate Pakistan, that was their biggest motivation. 

 

And their administration was world class under Nur Khan (their greatest sports related figure...cricket/hockey/squash all prospered under his watch). Apart from the Lahore WC, they started the Champions Trophy (now discontinued after 4 decades) and hosted 7 out of 1st 10 CTs, then again thrice in the 90s before it was shifted more or less permanently to Europe and Oceania. Imagine how proactive their board was, compared to India, we OTOH have hosted just 3 CTs in our entire history, most recent one because of Odisha govt's lobbying. Pak hockey players were well taken care of (also their economy was ahead till 2 decades back) which is always a big plus to achieve success in sports, now Indian players are in a better situation. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Gollum

[kepler37b]

Simple. The western teams had better facilities, better institutions and better sporting culture.

 

Now that our facilities and institutions are developing, we will become one of the dominant teams. Our talent pool is infinite. It more than compensates for our lack of sporting culture.

Edited August 5, 2021 by kepler37b

[coffee_rules]

Change the OP. India is #3, only Pakistan has declined in Hockey or in every other sport.

India won the Bronze medal beating goras.

[coffee_rules]

2 minutes ago, kepler37b said:

Simple. The western teams had better facilities, better institutions and better sporting culture.

 

Now that our facilities and institutions are developing, we will become one of the dominant teams. Our talent pool is infinite. It more than compensates for our lack of sporting culture.

Just need to Dalmiyanize the sport with our officials and referees.

[kepler37b]

3 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Change the OP. India is #3, only Pakistan has declined in Hockey or in every other sport.

India won the Bronze medal beating goras.

This made my day. Great news to hear in the morning. Well done Team India!!!.

 

Somehow, a medal in a team sport  like hockey/football is  much more exciting than one in non-team sports like Swimming.  This is even more exciting than our 2011 cricket world cup win.

Edited August 5, 2021 by kepler37b

[rkt.india]

8 minutes ago, kepler37b said:

This made my day. Great news to hear in the morning. Well done Team India!!!.

 

Somehow, a medal in a team sport  like hockey/football is  much more exciting than one in non-team sports like Swimming.  This is even more exciting than our 2011 cricket world cup win.

Olympics should be only about individual sports. No team game should be included in Olympics.

[Singh bling]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

Change the OP. India is #3, only Pakistan has declined in Hockey or in every other sport.

India won the Bronze medal beating goras.

Are you saying india was performing consistently throughout all these years.What we are seeing is resurgence of Hockey. Hopefully it will last long.

[velu]

do anyone in india other than Punjabis play hockey ?

[Gollum]

18 minutes ago, velu said:

do anyone in india other than Punjabis play hockey ?

Tribals from Odisha, Jharkhand, Central India

UP

NE

Karnataka

Tamils historically were well represented

Bhopal has a great hockey culture

etc.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Gollum

[Singh bling]

8 hours ago, Gollum said:

Hockey stick design change rule to harm dribblers. Abolition of offside rule, just long aerial balls to feed the attackers parked near the goalkeeper nowadays, also long hard hits are so effective which plays to power game of the top teams now . No offside especially was a killer move since we were good at dribbling the ball from one end to the other, plus short passes to build our attack unlike gora teams. 

 

Pakistan hockey was very well funded in 80s and 90s, Air Marshal Nur Khan was a terrific administrator and Pak had more money in the sport, more astroturfs, their economy was in a much better state than India's till mid-2000s. Now India is doing better in administration, astroturfs, money, etc and Pak is far behind. Goras took the game to the next level by late 90s adopting the Dutch model and tactics/strategy, they were beatable in 70s, 80s, even 90s, but last 20 years they have perfected their style.

 

Can't deny the effect of switch to astroturf, since players in poor countries learn the game on natural grass and switch to artifical turf at a more advanced age, so never entirely comfortable on the surface. Pak did well initially because they were so bloody good, comparable to 50s and 60s Indian sides in their skills/mentality. What Pak accomplished in 80s and early 90s (Shahbaz Senior, Maradona of hockey) is special, their early 80s team under Hassan Sardar is one of the greatest teams to have taken the field, their golden generation. To win like that when rules were loaded against them, respect. 

 

India's hockey was declining (or maybe weaker generation, tough to say, all teams have ebbs and flows) but with the old rules we would still have won big tournaments...not dominant like earlier sides but not zero silverware/medals either. With old rules Pak hockey wouldn't have declined so much post-90s, they had Sohail Abbas in their team in the 2000s and yet couldn't win anything of significance. Now they are behind teams like Wales, Scotland and fighting with Austria to stay in top 20, they are bad but not that bad!!! The hockey we attempt to play now is against our strengths/instincts/feel/psyche...imagine making a rule to ensure South African cricket team must play only spinners, no quicks!!!!!

 

Both India and Pakistan are sufferers. I don't like Pakistan but have much greater hate for goras who have been running world hockey for many years now. Both South Asian countries have a common enemy here, much bigger threat since neither of our hockey feds can harm the other anywhere near the same extent as goras. 

But what happened to India after 1975. First 3 World Cups 1 winner 1 finalist and 1 Semifinalist. After that terrible decline , never won , never in final.

[LordPrabhzy]

1 hour ago, velu said:

do anyone in india other than Punjabis play hockey ?

 

Maybe if you got your head out of Dhoni and CSK's butt you'd probably get your answer 

[LordPrabhzy]

25 minutes ago, Singh bling said:

But what happened to India after 1975. First 3 World Cups 1 winner 1 finalist and 1 Semifinalist. After that terrible decline , never won , never in final.

 

1983 we won the WC- hence all the public interest and funding went to cricket. Before 83 no one cared for cricket and followed Hockey ( because we were world beaters),  but that changed.

 

Hence shows that Indians follow only winners- I hope this medal creates a resurgence in Indian youth and kids to take up hockey enmasse. More players interested = More academies and more coaching centres needed= more revenue flows in from sponsors and media.

[Singh bling]

1 minute ago, LordPrabhzy said:

 

1983 we won the WC- hence all the public interest and funding went to cricket. Before 83 no one cared for cricket and followed Hockey ( because we were world beaters),  but that changed.

 

Hence shows that Indians follow only winners- I hope this medal creates a resurgence in Indian youth and kids to take up hockey enmasse. More players interested = More academies and more coaching centres needed= more revenue flows in from sponsors and media.

In 78 and 82 India did not reach semi final despite both are played on grass and 1982 in India

[LordPrabhzy]

1 hour ago, Singh bling said:

In 78 and 82 India did not reach semi final despite both are played on grass and 1982 in India

 

Are you going to keep harping on about two tournaments in the entire period of 1928-1980 when India didn't win a tournament? Even in this period Pakistan won golds, despite India being great. Every great team does NOT win every tournament. Its the law of averages.

 

Im talking about and focusing on the post 1980 era where Astro became more common- Gollum has told you the history of Pakistani Hockey and how they had more money in the 80s which they invested in astro turfs which meant they had better results than India.. please read everything before responding.

[Khota]

6 hours ago, velu said:

do anyone in india other than Punjabis play hockey ?

Serjeesh is not a very punjabi name and he more than contributed for this win.

 

And then the best ever Major Dhyan Chand.