The reasons why we didn't win!

[R!TTER]

8 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

We bowled 98 anyway. 110 was possible if we declared earlier

 

The way pacers bowled,they wouldnt have done anything if loss was on the cards.Infact draw is on their incompetence too,specially Ishant.

 

Nobody complained about declaration yesterday. The timing was right,only thing maybe we could have batted more aggressively in last half hour leading upto it.

 

 

It was impossible unless we declared at tea, bad light would always stop play at or just after 4 p.m.

 

The pacers were disappointing but this was a tactical brain fade of epic proportions, Dravid has to be blamed for this! 

 

Says who? I was constantly cursing the batters and team for this post tea yesterday! 

 

Also in case you forgot Root also used the same tactics against India at least thrice on the ENG tour. Don't remember - let me jog your memory.

 

Second test umps say light is bad so Root brings in Ali to bowl a few overs, when wickets don't fall he recalls steamers & umps call light. 

 

Third test - which we lost, same thing except he bowls some 10-15 overs with spin & knowing the new ball is just a few overs away he rushed through the overs. When 80 overs were completed he called for pacers & umpires instead took light. At that time another 10-15 overs were left in the day. Come next morning with a fresh new ball, morning swing and fresh bowlers ENG ripped through India and won easily! 

 

NZ did the same here on first day, as umpires said of bad light. They bowled their spinners for two overs and then to get off the field tried to put pacers back on. 

 

So when I can see this blatant tactic why can't the tactical genius coach see it? 

[AKane]

53 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

First of all they don't use SG ball. They use kookaburra or Duke (in England). Second of all the nature of the surface doesn't suit spinners. Only subcontinent pitches are more helpful for spinners due to its abrasive nature. Ball is different. surface is different, bounce is different. It tends to favor seamers more than spinners. A reason why you don't see SENA spinners outperforming SENA seamers in their respective countries. Apart from Warne a once in a generation leggie not a single legendary spinner came from any of these 4 countries. Why do you think so?

 

Not recently no... but before there was Underwood, Lock and Laker in England,  Valentine and Ramadhin and Gibbs in WI, Richie Benaud in Aus. Saffies have not had spinners.

[vvvslaxman]

9 minutes ago, AKane said:

 

Not recently no... but before there was Underwood, Lock and Laker in England,  Valentine and Ramadhin and Gibbs in WI, Richie Benaud in Aus. Saffies have not had spinners.

 

Underwood was known for sticky wicket specialist. He didn't click everywhere.  Rest of the guys are from yesteryears.

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, Lord said:

 

harsh on Umesh.Hes very good support bowler,specially at home.

 

 

 

If you observe elderly people past the age of 87 or 88, they may seem reasonably fit at age 87 but you see them after a year and there is a sudden deterioration in fitness level or overall activity level or alertness level.

 

It is often the same thing with pace bowlers. Once they cross real age 30 to 32 ( or 10 to 12 at international level ), they are often seen to deteriorate sharply in terms of fitness level and energy level.

 

The same thing has happened with Umesh. He was really good in tests at home but I see a dip in energy level nowadays.

 

This process had started with Ishant in early  2020 and with Shami in early 2021 and with Bhuvi in the last 2 years too.

 

If you check videos of Umesh bowling in 2017 and Umesh bowling in this test, you will understand what I am saying.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AKane]

9 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Underwood was known for sticky wicket specialist. He didn't click everywhere.  Rest of the guys are from yesteryears.

No.

 

Underwood in India 1976 numbers

5 matches - 29 wickets (highest for England) - Avg 17.55

 

Underwood in Australia 50 wkts in 14 natches for Avg 31.48

Underwood in India 54 wkts in 16 matches for Avg 26.51

 

He took 297 wkts in all for 25+ average - 152 of them outside England for 27+ average.

 

Underwood was DEADLY on sticky wickets(after rain).... but otherwise still a very good spin bowler.

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, AKane said:

 

Basically we are used to "doctoring" pitches at home for wins. We did not doctor the pitch enough?

 

The darling spinners need more coddling at home to get wins with more doctored pitches?

 

I am quite happy with the result. Exposes the myth and filth of Indian spin. I have seen Indian spin lay eggs  vs Willis/Lever/Underwood/Grieg in 1976 to Qasim/Qadir in 1980s - heck even against a lone Lance Gibbs in Mumbai 1974/75 vs WI.

 

No country expects heroics from pacers like India does abroad and treats them like step children at home with pitches doctored for the darling spinners. If the spinners are so great and so good ask them to win tests abroad as well like at the Gabba.

 

 

As a small kid, what struck me regarding Indian cricket was that we seemed to prefer really harmless bowlers. Anyone who looked remotely exciting or dangerous was dropped giving the excuse that he lacked control. 

 

We have always preferred finger spinners and medium pacers.  (  Which means pacers without pace and spinners without spin ).

 

Sivaramakrishnan and then Hirwani could turn the ball significantly but both were dropped after a few games. Bahutule did not get to play. Now we have seen how Kuldeep Yadav was dropped after a fifer in Australia in 2018-19.

 

If the the whole objective is to create spinners without spin then how can they win us matches on neutral pitches  !!

 

I don't have high expectations from most Indian spinners for this reason.  (  Ashwin has been really good in the last 3 years though and has upped his skill level amazingly. )

 

Since 2015 we have been producing multiple quick.pacers with skills ... and I have much higher expectations from them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by express bowling

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, AKane said:

No.

 

Underwood in India 1976 numbers

5 matches - 29 wickets (highest for England) - Avg 17.55

 

Underwood in Australia 50 wkts in 14 natches for Avg 31.48

Underwood in India 54 wkts in 16 matches for Avg 26.51

 

He took 297 wkts in all for 25+ average - 152 of them outside England for 27+ average.

 

Underwood was DEADLY on sticky wickets(after rain).... but otherwise still a very good spin bowler.

 

Underwood is not in the class of Warne or Murali.  Vast majority of his success in the early 70s to mid 70s. Back then Test match was the only format where the general approach was very defensive from all teams. A reason why India could get away with 3 spinners across the world.  So many things have changed. Now we have T20 plus leagues. Bowlers are overly exposed. They have to adjust their bowling according to the format.  From a sheer skill perspective Underwood can't even come close to Ashwin or even Rangana herath. Underwood  was half seam bowler half spinner.  He is no different from Axar or Jadeja in terms of speed.  Why do you think he is better than current crop based on thsi video.

 

 

 

[AKane]

27 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

If you observe elderly people past the age of 87 or 88, they may seem reasonably fit at age 87 but you see them after a year and there is a sudden deterioration in fitness level or overall activity level or alertness level.

 

It is often the same thing with pace bowlers. Once they cross real age 30 to 32 ( or 10 to 12 at international level ), they are often seen to deteriorate sharply in terms of fitness level and energy level.

 

The same thing has happened with Umesh. He was really good in tests at home but I see a dip in energy level nowadays.

 

This process had started with Ishant in early  2020 and with Shami in early 2021 and with Bhuvi in the last 2 years too.

 

If you check videos of Umesh bowling in 2017 and Umesh bowling in this test, you will understand what I am saying.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh absolutely - this is true in other sports as well... A soccer player who ruled the roost in one WC looks like a broken man next WC - but yes that is a very physical sport with injuries.

 

Even spinners same... For example I am talking about Derek Underwood on this thread and I saw him with Tony Griegs team at Wankhede in 1976 and he looked like a formidable spinner out there. I saw him again in 1980/81 at the stadium and he looked completely different as a bowler. Very innocuous comparitively. Same with Bob Willis in both those teams.

[vvvslaxman]

6 minutes ago, BlueBlood said:

LOL a thread with 5 pages of posts. This is the reactive thinking I am talking about.

 

All you fickle fans love to complain when things go wrong but shutup when we get lucky and win.

 

The simple fact and reason we didn't win was because of picking Jadeja AND Axar in same match which is stupidity. A wrist spinner bowling legspin would have run through this NZ lineup and match would have been done in half day of day 5.

 

Next we pick Ishant instead of Siraj. If you are going to pick Jadeja as batting all rounder, then one of Rahane or Pujara needs to be dropped for an allrounder to make way for a leggie in Indian conditions.

 

I love how Axar worshippers don't understand that he is barely better than Jadeja and Ashwin can't do crap when batsman are not aggressive as his variations are pathetic. He needs to wait until batsman makes a mistake.

 

Chahal, Chahar, Bishnoi or someone like this should have been picked to add variety to spin attack.

 

Next match we will win and all will be forgotten. Both batting and team selection sucks royally.

 

Chahar/Chahal in tests ? @velu  Any comments? 

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

If you observe elderly people past the age of 87 or 88, they may seem reasonably fit at age 87 but you see them after a year and there is a sudden deterioration in fitness level or overall activity level or alertness level.

 

It is often the same thing with pace bowlers. Once they cross real age 30 to 32 ( or 10 to 12 at international level ), they are often seen to deteriorate sharply in terms of fitness level and energy level.

 

The same thing has happened with Umesh. He was really good in tests at home but I see a dip in energy level nowadays.

 

This process had started with Ishant in early  2020 and with Shami in early 2021 and with Bhuvi in the last 2 years too.

 

If you check videos of Umesh bowling in 2017 and Umesh bowling in this test, you will understand what I am saying.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hmmm didn't watch too much of Umesh bowling this test.  But it was one test.

 

 

[mishra]

We need Kumble, we git Asstri then we got Dravid. 
 

Dravid as a person allways is very supportive of youngster ,  a nice guy. In sports, if you have your feet on neck of opponent, put pressure and so much pressure that you break it. 
 

Dravid lacks that brutality. 

[putrevus]

3 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

If you observe elderly people past the age of 87 or 88, they may seem reasonably fit at age 87 but you see them after a year and there is a sudden deterioration in fitness level or overall activity level or alertness level.

 

It is often the same thing with pace bowlers. Once they cross real age 30 to 32 ( or 10 to 12 at international level ), they are often seen to deteriorate sharply in terms of fitness level and energy level.

 

The same thing has happened with Umesh. He was really good in tests at home but I see a dip in energy level nowadays.

 

This process had started with Ishant in early  2020 and with Shami in early 2021 and with Bhuvi in the last 2 years too.

 

If you check videos of Umesh bowling in 2017 and Umesh bowling in this test, you will understand what I am saying.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The oomph factor is missing from his bowling.Ishant also is done and should be kicked out for good.

[putrevus]

3 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

As a small kid, what struck me regarding Indian cricket was that we seemed to prefer really harmless bowlers. Anyone who looked remotely exciting or dangerous was dropped giving the excuse that he lacked control. 

 

We have always preferred finger spinners and medium pacers.  (  Which means pacers without pace and spinners without spin ).

 

Sivaramakrishnan and then Hirwani could turn the ball significantly but both were dropped after a few games. Bahutule did not get to play. Now we have seen how Kuldeep Yadav was dropped after a fifer in Australia in 2018-19.

 

If the the whole objective is to create spinners without spin then how can they win us matches on neutral pitches  !!

 

I don't have high expectations from most Indian spinners for this reason.  (  Ashwin has been really good in the last 3 years though and has upped his skill level amazingly. )

 

Since 2015 we have been producing multiple quick.pacers with skills ... and I have much higher expectations from them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think Sivaramakishnan was ever big turner of the ball. His main weapon was his googly. To me Siva was always overrated and Hirwani was too slow thru the air to be effective for long term. He could turn ball more than Siva but again like most Indian leg spinners he never had the pace to be effective .

 

Kuldeep is the same too slow thru the air to be effective.Indian spinners should be made to play on wickets like Kanpur where they have to rely more on their skill than on the pitch.

[putrevus]

5 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

A normal Indian batting line up would have batted once and may be some in the 2nd. We have to remember we were in danger of losing this test at one point.  A surprise late order resistance put us in a winning position. Their spinners could not trouble our lower order batsmen.  Basically there was nothing on this pitch for spinners.  So it had to be a combination of seamers and spinners not just spinners alone. 

Pacers had to do more. Spinners did more than enough.Ashwin was brilliant again in both innings and showed why he might be the best spinner around.Pacers were putrid.Ishant was horrible.

[SRT100]

4 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

If you observe elderly people past the age of 87 or 88, they may seem reasonably fit at age 87 but you see them after a year and there is a sudden deterioration in fitness level or overall activity level or alertness level.

 

It is often the same thing with pace bowlers. Once they cross real age 30 to 32 ( or 10 to 12 at international level ), they are often seen to deteriorate sharply in terms of fitness level and energy level.

 

The same thing has happened with Umesh. He was really good in tests at home but I see a dip in energy level nowadays.

 

This process had started with Ishant in early  2020 and with Shami in early 2021 and with Bhuvi in the last 2 years too.

 

If you check videos of Umesh bowling in 2017 and Umesh bowling in this test, you will understand what I am saying.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very astute observations, I always enjoy your posting and your thoughts.

 

The aforementioned players in your post need to be replaced in the Indian team. They have regressed and unlike players that can learn, improve and practice, they have age as their limiting factor which makes it futile thinking they can return to their former best. Same argument applies to Rahane and Pujara.

 

The BCCI and TIM lack the foresight to see this. Instead of actively regenerating the Indian cricket team they double down.

 

It wouldnt surprise me at  all if Rahane, Pujara and Ishant all keep their place for the Mumbai Test.

[urbestfriend]

One more wicket and we'd have forgotten all the issues with our team, thats how we fans are..

Time and again, this had happened with the Indian team...Our middle order has always failed in last 2-3 years, yet our MO is not touched because we were winning. Now that match is drawn instead of a win, we criticise and say everything is wrong with the team.

[SRT100]

5 minutes ago, urbestfriend said:

One more wicket and we'd have forgotten all the issues with our team, thats how we fans are..

Time and again, this had happened with the Indian team...Our middle order has always failed in last 2-3 years, yet our MO is not touched because we were winning. Now that match is drawn instead of a win, we criticise and say everything is wrong with the team.

 

Im glad in some ways India didnt get that final wicket.

Otherwise it would mask the multiple problems as to why we didnt win.

 

There wasnt just the 10th wicket partnership, there was a multitude of reasons why this team failed to win the game.

 

It started with picking the wrong team.

[rkt.india]

8 hours ago, R!TTER said:

It was impossible unless we declared at tea, bad light would always stop play at or just after 4 p.m.

 

The pacers were disappointing but this was a tactical brain fade of epic proportions, Dravid has to be blamed for this! 

 

Says who? I was constantly cursing the batters and team for this post tea yesterday! 

 

Also in case you forgot Root also used the same tactics against India at least thrice on the ENG tour. Don't remember - let me jog your memory.

 

Second test umps say light is bad so Root brings in Ali to bowl a few overs, when wickets don't fall he recalls steamers & umps call light. 

 

Third test - which we lost, same thing except he bowls some 10-15 overs with spin & knowing the new ball is just a few overs away he rushed through the overs. When 80 overs were completed he called for pacers & umpires instead took light. At that time another 10-15 overs were left in the day. Come next morning with a fresh new ball, morning swing and fresh bowlers ENG ripped through India and won easily! 

 

NZ did the same here on first day, as umpires said of bad light. They bowled their spinners for two overs and then to get off the field tried to put pacers back on. 

 

So when I can see this blatant tactic why can't the tactical genius coach see it? 

Dravid has to be blamed for what?

[rkt.india]

1 minute ago, SRT100 said:

 

Im glad in some ways India didnt get that final wicket.

Otherwise it would mask the multiple problems as to why we didnt win.

 

There wasnt just the 10th wicket partnership, there was a multitude of reasons why this team failed to win the game.

 

It started with picking the wrong team.

It started with 6 frontline players being rested. India weren't the firm favorites in this game because of that reason. It was an even contest with frontline players missing.

[rkt.india]

Don't get why people are complaining. They did quite well with the resources available. Imagine Aussies, England missing 6 top players in a home test.