If Ashwin goes wicketless in this test, should he be replaced by Vihari?

[vijaydude]

4 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

When did he give 60 runs?

2-55 this match. Not bad.

[Adamant]

11 minutes ago, vijaydude said:

2-55 this match. Not bad.

Sorry but picking another pacer would have helped a lot.

[vijaydude]

31 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Sorry but picking another pacer would have helped a lot.

Perhaps. This was certainly a graveyard for spinners. If the next match too is similar to this, it wouldn't be unfair to not play Ash.

 

Though one could argue that a spinner is needed for the holding job (similar to Jadeja in England). Good on Ashwin that he did his role perfectly in this match, and even eked out a couple of wickets when fields were set for wickets.

[putrevus]

8 hours ago, Adamant said:

Getting 0 wicket for 60 runs is a problem unless you choose to ignore it. 

Ashwin is not the problem.he is be just fine.

[Adamant]

3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Ashwin is not the problem.he is be just fine.

He is not the problem but it's ok to drop him when conditions aren't supporting spinners, this pitch was a deathbed for spinners.
We could have played Yadav or maybe Vihari.

[Frustrated]

Loli won't change the winning combination, unless there is a injury.    Can't blame ashwin either ,as the pitches in SA are so tough for spinners. He dismissed the tail enders quickly, that will further boost his chance of being retained in the playing 11.

[ShoonyaSifar]

Those 2 wickets at the end ensure that he'll keep his place for the remaining 2 tests.

[Chakdephatte]

1 hour ago, Adamant said:

Sorry but picking another pacer would have helped a lot.

Ashwin batted at 7. Umesh couldn't have. Now that he didn't score is a hindsight but Ashwin+Shardul make one complete batsman. They are playing as bowlers who can bat. Don't forgot India's batting is already thin with the reputed trio in the middle.

[Vijy]

play him in 3rd test, get vihari in for 2nd test. the 2nd test is even more unfriendly to spin

[vvvslaxman]

Examine the surface and pick the side. Don't have blanket rules. 

[putrevus]

18 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Examine the surface and pick the side. Don't have blanket rules. 

Once Jadeja is out Ashwin needs to play.Thakur is fourth fast bowler but Ashwin takes load off the main fast bowlers by keeping one end tied up on any wicket.

Edited December 30, 2021 by putrevus

[ComfortFood]

Bihari is not test class. He will score 22 runs from 67 balls and get out. In short another Pujara

with the ball he is as good as Ravi Shastri without Drinks

either ashwin or play a good batsman

Edited December 30, 2021 by ComfortFood

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, putrevus said:

Once Jadeja is out Ashwin needs to play.Thakur is fourth fast bowler but Ashwin take load off the main fast bowlers by keeping one end tied up on any wicket.

Over-rate is something that is more important than ever with Test championship in place. They dock points for slow over-rate. 

 

From a pros and con analysis perspective

 

Vihari is a better batsman than Ashwin. Ashwin is a far better bowler than Vihari.

 

Vihari and Ashwin have played five tests together . They were the architects of the famous draw at the SCG.

 

Vihari 5 tests 8 innings 104 runs 14.85 average

Ashwin 5 tests 8 innings 83 runs 13.83 average

 

Bowling

 

Ashwin 5 tests 23 wickets 27.56 average

Vihari  5 tests 0 wicket

 

 

 

VIhari

 

vs Australia 20.33

vs England 28.00 

vs New zealand 21.50

vs SA  10.00

vs Windies 96.33

 

Vihari may not be super talented. But very resilient.  If needed he can hang around. Definitely better bet. But if for whatever reason the pitch helps spinners or you have an opportunity to squeeze  out a specific player who is weak against spin you back your best bowler regardless of history. India is winning matches purely with bowling despite getting bowled out under 200 a lot of times. If we slightly weaken it in order to shift the balance there is no telling what will happen. It might work out. It might not.

 

 

 

 

[putrevus]

8 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Over-rate is something that is more important than ever with Test championship in place. They dock points for slow over-rate. 

 

From a pros and con analysis perspective

 

Vihari is a better batsman than Ashwin. Ashwin is a far better bowler than Vihari.

 

Vihari and Ashwin have played five tests together . They were the architects of the famous draw at the SCG.

 

Vihari 5 tests 8 innings 104 runs 14.85 average

Ashwin 5 tests 8 innings 83 runs 13.83 average

 

Bowling

 

Ashwin 5 tests 23 wickets 27.56 average

Vihari  5 tests 0 wicket

 

 

 

VIhari

 

vs Australia 20.33

vs England 28.00 

vs New zealand 21.50

vs SA  10.00

vs Windies 96.33

 

Vihari may not be super talented. But very resilient.  If needed he can hang around. Definitely better bet. But if for whatever reason the pitch helps spinners or you have an opportunity to squeeze  out a specific player who is weak against spin you back your best bowler regardless of history. India is winning matches purely with bowling despite getting bowled out under 200 a lot of times. If we slightly weaken it in order to shift the balance there is no telling what will happen. It might work out. It might not.

 

 

 

 

Ashwin will be the difference maker at some point in the series.He looked rushed in this test, he just needs to relax and let his skills take over, he will be just fine.

[Texan]

We should still play Vihari for Ashwin in next Test. We have 3 non-performing batsmen in our middle order who are unlikely to get dropped (one is captain, so impossible to drop). Vihari should help add some more depth and he could do the same containing job that Ashwin largely did with the ball. We are sorely missing Sundar or Jadeja here. Even Axar might have been more effective as a spinner since he tends to skid the ball.

[cricketpitch]

10 minutes ago, Texan said:

We should still play Vihari for Ashwin in next Test. We have 3 non-performing batsmen in our middle order who are unlikely to get dropped (one is captain, so impossible to drop). Vihari should help add some more depth and he could do the same containing job that Ashwin largely did with the ball. We are sorely missing Sundar or Jadeja here. Even Axar might have been more effective as a spinner since he tends to skid the ball.

So you are basically saying that the 3 batters who average in their mid 20's for 2 years will continue playing and we need Vihari to cover for them but you wouldn't play a bowler who has done well over the past year or so. You see the problem with that logic. You don't carry 3 passengers in the team and try to cover it up with an extra batter. Drop Rahane or Pujara as Kohli cannot be dropped and play Vihari. Dropping Ashwin to accommodate Vihari because our 3,4 & 5 are useless is not a justification. 

[Texan]

11 minutes ago, cricketpitch said:

So you are basically saying that the 3 batters who average in their mid 20's for 2 years will continue playing and we need Vihari to cover for them but you wouldn't play a bowler who has done well over the past year or so. You see the problem with that logic. You don't carry 3 passengers in the team and try to cover it up with an extra batter. Drop Rahane or Pujara as Kohli cannot be dropped and play Vihari. Dropping Ashwin to accommodate Vihari because our 3,4 & 5 are useless is not a justification. 

 

I don't think you have seen my past posts. I didn't want any of these 3 to be picked in the squad in the first place. Now that that did not happen, at least one of them has to play since he is the captain. The last two wickets not withstanding, Ashwin is still pretty useless in these conditions. His bowling average in SA is 42 and his batting average is 18. As a bowler, he is only doing a containing job here, which Vihari could also do and bat better than Ashwin. If next pitch is anything like this one, it is not going to assist spinners. So what do you want Ashwin to do? Swat flies on the boundary? Let him do it in the dressing room.

[cricketpitch]

14 minutes ago, Texan said:

 

I don't think you have seen my past posts. I didn't want any of these 3 to be picked in the squad in the first place. Now that that did not happen, at least one of them has to play since he is the captain. The last two wickets not withstanding, Ashwin is still pretty useless in these conditions. His bowling average in SA is 42 and his batting average is 18. As a bowler, he is only doing a containing job here, which Vihari could also do and bat better than Ashwin. If next pitch is anything like this one, it is not going to assist spinners. So what do you want Ashwin to do? Swat flies on the boundary? Let him do it in the dressing room.

Ashwin averages 30 with the ball in the last 2 tours and to be frank. I get it we will have to switch back to 7+4 combination to cover for our incompetent middle order. So what will you do in cape town? Cape town will assist spin, do you want to drop Ashwin again to cover for the batters and lose an attacking option relying on a part-timer? India need to take tough calls, if Kohli cannot be dropped, the other 2 need to be dropped. Rahane averages lower than Ashwin this year and actually lower than Umesh this year. The only reason Virat isn't dropping either of them is because he is struggling as well. If he was in great form, he would have dropped Rahane or Pujara log back.

[Texan]

12 minutes ago, cricketpitch said:

Ashwin averages 30 with the ball in the last 2 tours and to be frank. I get it we will have to switch back to 7+4 combination to cover for our incompetent middle order. So what will you do in cape town? Cape town will assist spin, do you want to drop Ashwin again to cover for the batters and lose an attacking option relying on a part-timer? India need to take tough calls, if Kohli cannot be dropped, the other 2 need to be dropped. Rahane averages lower than Ashwin this year and actually lower than Umesh this year. The only reason Virat isn't dropping either of them is because he is struggling as well. If he was in great form, he would have dropped Rahane or Pujara log back.

If wicket is going to be spin friendly, of course, Ashwin must play and we should revert back to 6+5 with Shardul providing some batting support similar to how we played first Test. All 3 useless middle order batsmen who can't bat deserve to be dropped and since Kohli isn't going to drop himself, at least Pujara MUST BE dropped and Rahane likely should be too. Panchal should play for Pujara and Iyer for Rahane.

[vvvslaxman]

58 minutes ago, Texan said:

 

I don't think you have seen my past posts. I didn't want any of these 3 to be picked in the squad in the first place. Now that that did not happen, at least one of them has to play since he is the captain. The last two wickets not withstanding, Ashwin is still pretty useless in these conditions. His bowling average in SA is 42 and his batting average is 18. As a bowler, he is only doing a containing job here, which Vihari could also do and bat better than Ashwin. If next pitch is anything like this one, it is not going to assist spinners. So what do you want Ashwin to do? Swat flies on the boundary? Let him do it in the dressing room.

 

Let us say Vihari makes a 50 again and Capetown is spin friendly. Will you drop Vihari again and bring in Ashwin since you admit it is impossible to remove the middle 3.