If Ashwin goes wicketless in this test, should he be replaced by Vihari?

[vvvslaxman]

11 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

anyone can concede big score in ODI pattas in any game.

 

Curran flayed them apart and got them to a mighty total of 180

 

Dhoni era doesnt count.Nobody claims our bowlers were good then

 

We lost 2011 world cup to England after posting 333. Dhoni almost could not defend 400 plus runs against Srilanka. On roads onus is on the batsmen to match the opposition. Losing heaps of wicket at the top like they were playing at Headingley on a rainy day was unforgivable. 

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

I know about NZ conditions. Batting gets better as the game goes on. NZ made 348. We got rolled over under 200 runs. 3rd innings. No excuse for failing  6 times in a row.

NZ should not have made 348.Indian gave them 150 too many in the innings.Yes this Indian team is somehow unable to handle NZ in important matches.

[putrevus]

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

We lost 2011 world cup to England after posting 333. Dhoni almost could not defend 400 plus runs against Srilanka. On roads onus is on the batsmen to match the opposition. Losing heaps of wicket at the top like they were playing at Headingley on a rainy day was unforgivable. 

You are talking as if previous Indian teams did not collpase.

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, putrevus said:

NZ should not have made 348.Indian gave them 150 too many in the innings.Yes this Indian team is somehow unable to handle NZ in important matches.

 

Just because we get shot out for 165 (1st innings ) and 190 (3rd innings) doesn't mean NZ batting will also suck. In christchurch Pakistan was shot out for 297 & 176 NZ made 659/6 after our series. Williamson made 238 runs. You know how much Williamson made in christchurch against us? 3& 5. Indian bowlers even helped take a 7 run lead.  Alas India got shot out for 124 in the 2nd dig. They thrashed us chasing 132 in 36 overs.

[G_B_]

Both spinners in this test have chipped in with the bat...

 

Bloody well as well cause they are not even in a position to stop the flow of runs.. .

 

Sa probably picked maharaj to satisfy the asian quota

 

[Jay]

9 hours ago, R!TTER said:

The bottom line is many of these bowlers don't raise their game when we need them the most - Bumrah here & WTC final, CT final then Ashwin here & in Eng last time, Shami in Eng & SA last time. I'll repeat what I said in the past - we've lost more games due to our bowlers, especially in LO tourneys, as compares to the batters throughout our history!

Lmao what. You serious right now. We always lose because of our brainless brain dead wastrel batsmen in tests. Bowling post 2015 in particular has saved us on countless occasions. 

 

You are actually blaming the bowling when this piss poor piece of garbage batting unit can't can't score 250 on a good batting pitch. First day was the best day to bat in s.a. and they scored 200. That too with help from tailenders mainly. 

 

Worst batting unit of all time. Our bowling is top tier. Saved our ass since 2015 many times. We were unlucky with siraj injury. 

[Jay]

6 hours ago, R!TTER said:

I'm talking about historically bowling being our weakness, or letting us down in crucial moments! Is that not true or do you want me to list big games where essentially our bowlers lost us the game?

Post 2000 infact I would say our batting is extremely overrated In sena. Bowlers only dint do well in 2011-2013 period when we were in transition. 

 

 

[Vijy]

7 minutes ago, Jay said:

Post 2000 infact I would say our batting is extremely overrated In sena. Bowlers only dint do well in 2011-2013 period when we were in transition. 

 

 

it's not like we were doing great pre-2000 in SENA. In the 90s, guess how many wins we had in SENA: in a full decade? Zero, I believe, is the answer. Bowling may win matches, but you got to put up the runs on the board. Pre-2000, only SRT, Amarnath, and Gavaskar would be considered "good" by the same logic.

[Jay]

4 minutes ago, Vijy said:

it's not like we were doing great pre-2000 in SENA. In the 90s, guess how many wins we had in SENA: in a full decade? Zero, I believe, is the answer. Bowling may win matches, but you got to put up the runs on the board. Pre-2000, only SRT, Amarnath, and Gavaskar would be considered "good" by the same logic.

Need competent batsmen for sure. Can't just have one batsman. 

[Vijy]

7 minutes ago, Jay said:

Need competent batsmen for sure. Can't just have one batsman. 

as we are finding out now, better one than zero.

[vvvslaxman]

58 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

Both spinners in this test have chipped in with the bat...

 

Bloody well as well cause they are not even in a position to stop the flow of runs.. .

 

Sa probably picked maharaj to satisfy the asian quota

 

 

Just-in-case quota i would say. Just in case if there is some assistance Maharaja will be useful. Also useful to hold one end. But on this pitch scoring against seamers cannot be done without risk. So spinners will be targeted.

[Vijy]

Just now, vvvslaxman said:

 

Just-in-case quota i would say. Just in case if there is some assistance Maharaja will be useful. Also useful to hold one end. But on this pitch scoring against seamers cannot be done without risk. So spinners will be targeted.

maharaja has also been picked because he can bat a bit; more than Lungi and Rabada

Edited January 5, 2022 by Vijy

[vvvslaxman]

6 hours ago, putrevus said:

You are talking as if previous Indian teams did not collpase.

 

Can you name instance where we lost 3 wickets next to nothing in that era. At the worst 2 wickets.  This team   CT final 2017, Asia cup match vs Pakistan8/3.  WOrld T20 vs Pakistan  Top three wickets.  Against NZ in semi final 22/4,  Against NZ in the world T20 also there was a top order collapse. If we had done frequently we would remember instead of searching cricinfo. These are memorable because these were important matches.

[Frustrated]

Ashwin is our 2nd top scorer in 1st inning of this test.  He scored 46 out of 202 runs.  Implies one forth of the runs.  He makes it to our team based on his batting alone.    Bowling is a bonus.  

[Vijy]

28 minutes ago, Frustrated said:

Ashwin is our 2nd top scorer in 1st inning of this test.  He scored 46 out of 202 runs.  Implies one forth of the runs.  He makes it to our team based on his batting alone.    Bowling is a bonus.  

to play devil's advocate, why would Jaddu not have scored more? I know he's not available for selection, so the question is theoretical.

 

what this series is showing is that 2-spinner policy in SENA should almost never be used. one of the factors that affected us big time in some tests that need not be named

[vvvslaxman]

6 minutes ago, Vijy said:

to play devil's advocate, why would Jaddu not have scored more? I know he's not available for selection, so the question is theoretical.

 

what this series is showing is that 2-spinner policy in SENA should almost never be used. one of the factors that affected us big time in some tests that need not be named

 

I don't think we had 2 spinners in the same test often.  Jadeja & Ashwin have played only 4 test together in SENA.

 

There was once in 2014 under Dhoni in England. We lost the test by an innings. India made 152 & 161. Ashwin made 40 & 46 not out.

 

Then the famous SCG drawn test & MCG test that we won. Both helped in different ways. One was draw. One was win. 

 

TC final was where we got the combination wrong. With Rain around 4 seamers would have been an ideal choice. India could have restricted them. But problem is  Still there is no escaping from the fact Indian top 5 made 30, 8, 15, 13, 15 in the second innings.  Ashwin  made 22 & 7 and took 4 for 45. Yes. it is not ideal.  But  our over seas catastrophe was not because of playing 2 spinners or even 1 spinner. 

 

 

[Vijy]

45 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

I don't think we had 2 spinners in the same test often.  Jadeja & Ashwin have played only 4 test together in SENA.

 

There was once in 2014 under Dhoni in England. We lost the test by an innings. India made 152 & 161. Ashwin made 40 & 46 not out.

 

Then the famous SCG drawn test & MCG test that we won. Both helped in different ways. One was draw. One was win. 

 

TC final was where we got the combination wrong. With Rain around 4 seamers would have been an ideal choice. India could have restricted them. But problem is  Still there is no escaping from the fact Indian top 5 made 30, 8, 15, 13, 15 in the second innings.  Ashwin  made 22 & 7 and took 4 for 45. Yes. it is not ideal.  But  our over seas catastrophe was not because of playing 2 spinners or even 1 spinner. 

 

 

WTC final is the classic example of how 2 spinners should not have played in such conditions. batting failures played a big role, but so did the absence of 4th seamer, esp. given that Boom was off colour.

[R!TTER]

6 minutes ago, Vijy said:

esp. given that Boom was off colour.

And limp d*** Sharma did not better! Shardul & Siraj should've played but that's all in hindsight now. Anyway our batting did lose the game for us, that's for sure 

[rkt.india]

9 hours ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

We are playing our 6th test at The Wanderers, won 2, never lost . Kumble played in 3 of them, Ashwin is playing his 2nd test here and we played an all seam attack in 2018. So it's basically Kumble 17 wickets, Ashwin 0 wickets. 

 

But his 46 in the 1st innings is as good as a hundred elsewhere. We'd have been toast without those runs from him.

Someone else would have scored if he wasn't in the team.

[ShoonyaSifar]

38 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Someone else would have scored if he wasn't in the team.

Yeah man. Scoring those runs was so easy on this pitch as we saw (CricViz rates it as the 9th fastest and 13th most difficult pitch with variable bounce to bat on day 1 of a test since they started tracking data (547 tests).

Data doesn't matter, your feel matters