Rahul Dravid rues Hardik Pandya and Ravindra Jadeja absence from ODI side

[Adamant]

9 hours ago, sandeep said:

 

I really struggle to understand what drives such a visceral dislike for a rarity of a player like Pandya.  I mean, the guy is a bonafide success story as an ODI bat, 

When a guy is actually a success story most of the fans recognize him as one, Pandya has done absolutely nothing to be referred as a success story in odis. 

Yes he gets in the team as soon as he is fit to bowl but saying that he has achieved a lot is a lie. 

 

If he is a batting allrounder then when has he performed like Ben Stokes or Klusener or Razzaq? 

 

You can't change his reputation in world cricket with a lie. 

[Adamant]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

 

 

Buttler is a freak, so lets put him aside.  But in Pandya, India has an ODI batsman who has a better Strike rate than Glen Maxwell, Marcus Stoinis, Ben Stokes, Kieron Pollard, Jimmy Neesham, and either better or comparable averages? 

 

And we are sitting here claiming that the only way he gets 'considered' for India selection if his bowling fitness is 110%?

 

This is what I was pointing out - what ignorant bias looks like.  

Jadhav is also ahead of him, care to comment on that? 

This is what we call selective stats filtering, everyone and his dog knows that Jadhav was a liability and Pandya apart from two series which I remember has been a liability. 

 

I think it was @Austin 3:!6 or @Trichromatic who posted all of Pandya's scores starting from the day he debuted just to shut up Pandya fanboys and damn that was an eye opening thread.

 

You really need to visit that, stats without context means nothing. 

 

The only series I remember in which Pandya actually played well is the series vs aus in 2020 and another one vs aus in 2017 or 2018 when he was man of the seriws, apart from that he has absolutely nothing to show. 

 

He makes the team easily as a pace allrounder but that's because of utility and not greatness. 

 

Yusuf Pathan was easily a better batsman than Pandya, not only was he a bigger and better hitter but also more responsible and had 2 centuries too. 

 

No one hyped Yusuf Pathan as much as Pandya is hyped these days, that's because these days IPL fans don't really understand international cricket and always view international cricket as some sort of extended IPL. 

 

Also another thing is that Pandya feasts on slower and weak attacks, everyone and his dog knows that when you pitch the ball at high pace wide of him he fails more often than not. 

 

Basically a poor man's Yusuf Pathan but still pretty much useful. 

[zen]

3 hours ago, sandeep said:

 

Can some stat hound post Pandya's ODI average and SR, and compare with other #6 batsmen?  

 

Below when batting at #5-7 versus major teams since 1989 (debut year of Tendulkar):

 

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1989

Batting position between 5 and 7

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 500

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0
MS Dhoni	2005-2019	266	225	66	7550	139*	47.48	8885	84.97	5	51	5
R Dravid	1996-2007	73	67	16	2257	103*	44.25	2999	75.25	1	21	2
KM Jadhav	2014-2020	57	42	15	1123	120	41.59	1070	104.95	1	5	2
RG Sharma	2007-2012	47	43	13	1128	95	37.60	1390	81.15	0	9	3
HH Pandya	2016-2021	49	34	7	965	92*	35.74	835	115.56	0	6	3
SV Manjrekar	1990-1996	26	24	5	650	62	34.21	934	69.59	0	4	2
Yuvraj Singh	2000-2017	142	128	18	3756	139	34.14	4528	82.95	5	24	11
SK Raina	2005-2018	157	138	23	3758	106	32.67	4104	91.56	2	22	12
A Jadeja	1992-2000	107	95	19	2475	119	32.56	3292	75.18	2	11	5
M Azharuddin	1989-2000	71	65	13	1651	111*	31.75	2254	73.24	1	9	0
RA Jadeja	2009-2020	113	83	30	1626	87	30.67	1896	85.75	0	8	6
HK Badani	2000-2004	27	24	5	568	100	29.89	756	75.13	1	1	0
SR Tendulkar	1989-1997	37	37	7	873	82*	29.10	1058	82.51	0	5	3
YK Pathan	2008-2012	44	31	9	627	123*	28.50	536	116.97	2	3	6
RR Singh	1989-2001	97	84	17	1559	75	23.26	2173	71.74	0	7	4
VG Kambli	1991-2000	49	43	13	693	58*	23.10	1000	69.30	0	3	3
M Kaif	2002-2006	77	65	12	1224	87*	23.09	1696	72.16	0	7	6
NR Mongia	1994-2000	68	49	17	664	69	20.75	941	70.56	0	1	0
N Kapil Dev	1989-1994	80	70	14	1024	48*	18.28	1285	79.68	0	0	3

 

 

Avg of 36 at a SR of 116 (and his best years are to come) 

 

 

At the same positions, Tendulkar averaged 29 and Yuvi 34 with much lower SRs ... Dravid averaged 44 but his SR is 75 ... Rohit averaged 38 but again SR is only 81 ... Kapil averaged 18 with a SR of 80 ... Dhoni has an average of 47, but again SR is 85

 

If SDP bats in the top 3-4, his average could improve much like how it did for Sachin, Rohit, etc. 

 

PS in terms of Avg*SR

 

SDP 4,176

Dhoni 3,995

Yusuf 3,393

Dravid 3,300

Rohit 3,078

Raina 3,036

Yuvi 2,822

R Jadeja 2,666

Sachin 2,407

Azhar 2,263

Robin 1,656

Kapil 1,440 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by zen

[anish2tweet]

[mention=286]sandeep[/mention] Since HP's debut, here are the records of batters who have batted at No. 6. HP has an excellent avg + SR combo: 38.5 at 111 SR
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmax1=6;batting_positionmin1=6;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=runs;spanmin1=14+oct+2016;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting
The only better ones are Buttler with 44 avg and 111 SR and Jadhav with 48 avg and 107 SR. Jadhav was damn underrated in the first half of his career. Miller also very good with 41 avg and 98 SR

If Jadhav avg and sr is good, why not him? There is a reason right, which is subjective? Stats do lie.

Sent from my CPH1819 using Tapatalk

[Suhaan]

6 hours ago, Banton said:

Hardik pandya can not hit against high pace in death overs.

He is good for Ipl and minnow bashing.

He developed his game against high pace and mastered it in quick time which was displayed in 2019 IPL and after,at one point matched Russell in madness in slog overs, but regressed rapidly since adopting wierd stance at crease(from Feb/March 2021) , there has been no arrest to the slide since then

He hasn't even thought to correct it yet

Edited January 26, 2022 by Suhaan

[badmash]

Lol hardick pandaya kya kar leta lol average bowler, hit or miss batsman without any impactful innings to date. 
 

[Vijy]

5 hours ago, anish2tweet said:

If Jadhav avg and sr is good, why not him? There is a reason right, which is subjective? Stats do lie.

Sent from my CPH1819 using Tapatalk
 

because he was not the same player once his hamstring issues set in. moreover, as with all players, teams became better at bowling to him. stats don't always paint the full truth, but they don't "lie" - just means that the analysis must be more sophisticated.

[sandeep]

8 hours ago, Adamant said:

he only series I remember in which Pandya actually played well is the series vs aus in 2020 and another one vs aus in 2017 or 2018 when he was man of the seriws, apart from that he has absolutely nothing to show. 

 

So you have a lower order batsman who shines against the toughest opponent in cricket - both home and away, in a batting order slot that is one of the most challenging, and a perennial struggle for all teams to fill, especially India, but you can just write off those successes.  Because they don't count? 

 

You have a massive bias blind spot against this guy, and thats fine.  Its your choice.  Nobody is claiming that he's a superstar or the greatest - I'm not Zen keep in mind  - the point is, you are undervaluing his batting contributions because you have decided that unless he bowls you don't "like" him.  That's your prerogative.  I'm done with this useless back and forth.  

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, badmash said:

Lol hardick pandaya kya kar leta lol average bowler, hit or miss batsman without any impactful innings to date. 
 

He has a man of the series vs Australia in Australia.  Something your tailunted barber can only fantasize about.

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, Vijy said:

because he was not the same player once his hamstring issues set in. moreover, as with all players, teams became better at bowling to him. stats don't always paint the full truth, but they don't "lie" - just means that the analysis must be more sophisticated.

Jadhav is 10 years or so older than Pandya, and started to fade with recurring injuries.  Facts don't matter to these folks - they are not able to look at players beyond a couple of scores and what their 'memory' has pigeonholed a certain player as.  No point...

[sandeep]

9 hours ago, Banton said:

Hardik pandya can not hit against high pace in death overs.

He is good for Ipl and minnow bashing.

 

Good for winning test match in England with the ball, winning series along with Man of Series against Australia in Australia, and so on.  

 

We know how many greenbro underwear get stained when he's batting against them - the more a player is feared, more these keyboard warriors will spout baseless bravado against him. 

[vvvslaxman]

11 hours ago, sandeep said:

Because I don't consider "ODI 100s" to be the benchmark.  I want unselfish guys who can attack and score at a high SR easily, in the middle order.  I don't know Pandya's stats off the top of my head, but his ODI SR is world class, and his ODI average isn't too bad either.  Forget his average, he has put up match-deciding 40+ scores at least half a dozen times, some of those coming in proper crunch pressure situations.  

 

Sure he doesn't have 100s yet, because he's been languishing down the order at 6 or lower.  You rarely get to score "100s" batting that low.  And that fact that he has a good number of 70+ scores already, says a lot.  

 

Objectively speaking, ODI cricket as of today, especially in subcontinent conditions is about putting pressure with the bat.  And having a deep batting lineup that can keep batting at better than run-a-ball.  Having a top order that sets the tone for the innings momentum is way more important than having a top order with more "ODI 100s".  That's why a team with top order filled with guys like Alex Hales, Roy, Billings, etc wins more games than a team stacked with top order stat-greats such as Rohit, Dhawan and Virat.  

 

The metrics for selecting your #6 ODI batsman isn't how many "ODI 100s" a guy has scored.  But if I have to break that down to you, there's really no point to this 'debate'.  You believe what you want, I'm not bothered about 'convincing' you.

 

Batting at 6 is "languishing down"?  Butler averages 40 at 7 with a century. WHy go that much. Kedar Jadhav has batted 6 or down the order averaging 46 with strike rate of 106 and has a century too. He had his moments as a batsman. He was a bowler too back then. He was picked and backed mainly because he could bat and bowl. If Jadeja completely doesn't know how to bat he will not be our no.1 choice spinner.  Pandya is one such guy. His batting is way too unreliable to consider him as a specialist bat while there are far too many actual specialist bats struggling to enter.  Based on his recent IPL performance/World T20 his batting (whatever that was left) is also gone.  Thakur with his limited opportunities he has proved his value with Bat,  Chahar has done it.  Sundar has done it.  Yuvraj, Dhoni, Raina have played down the order without much complaints. Why is this guy who doesn't even have a list A 100 should be considered as specialist bat? Just because he can hit sixes

[vvvslaxman]

47 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

So you have a lower order batsman who shines against the toughest opponent in cricket - both home and away, in a batting order slot that is one of the most challenging, and a perennial struggle for all teams to fill, especially India, but you can just write off those successes.  Because they don't count? 

 

You have a massive bias blind spot against this guy, and thats fine.  Its your choice.  Nobody is claiming that he's a superstar or the greatest - I'm not Zen keep in mind  - the point is, you are undervaluing his batting contributions because you have decided that unless he bowls you don't "like" him.  That's your prerogative.  I'm done with this useless back and forth.  

 

 

Australia fielded an under-strength team in one of those matches. One match where they played main bowlers he scored  more than 50% of runs his against Maxwell and zampa with high strike rate. His runs against others came at a strike rate below 100.  Sure he can whack spinners around. That is a given.  Let us not go overboard with his bilateral bullying in Australia. In the world T20 he couldn't even connect anything.  Apart from one innings was a flop in IPL too.  Sure he can come in. But he must be bowling most number of 5th bowler quota. Purely as a batsman? No way. If you Shubman Gill enough chances he can also do the same job.

[Suhaan]

8 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Just because he can hit sixes

So who  should be there to bat?

Someone who can nudge the ball around and score 30 ball 31

We have one too many on offer of those types,but it won't help,people need to understand, hitting sixes is not throwing kitchen sink at everything thing,but one should have that ability to go berserk,we need to back guys like him there

Jadhav looked good because of a red hot Kohli,i dont remember him dominating the scoring anytime else

Not an advocate of Pandya infact he has struggled to maintain 100 SR offlate

We need someone who can hit big from ball 1 at that position,odis are just little different from t20s quite easy for batsmen to pace innings

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, Suhaan said:

So who  should be there to bat?

Someone who can nudge the ball around and score 30 ball 31

We have one too many on offer of those types,but it won't help,people need to understand, hitting sixes is not throwing kitchen sink at everything thing,but one should have that ability to go berserk,we need to back guys like him there

Jadhav looked good because of a red hot Kohli,i dont remember him dominating the scoring anytime else

Not an advocate of Pandya infact he has struggled to maintain 100 SR offlate

We need someone who can hit big from ball 1 at that position,odis are just little different from t20s quite easy for batsmen to pace innings

 

If you are looking for a specialist batsman you should not only expect him to hit sixes.  He should be able to build the innings in a 20/3 scenario.  Dhoni/Yuvraj/Raina were equal threats as much as  Sachin/Gambhir/Tendulkar.  Would you say Pant/Hardik/SKY are as good as Dhawan/Rohit/Kohli?   India will have to play KL Rahul down the order to get the best out of him. He can do both roles.

[Suhaan]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

If you are looking for a specialist batsman you should not only expect him to hit sixes.  He should be able to build the innings in a 20/3 scenario.  Dhoni/Yuvraj/Raina were equal threats as much as  Sachin/Gambhir/Tendulkar.  Would you say Pant/Hardik/SKY are as good as Dhawan/Rohit/Kohli?   India will have to play KL Rahul down the order to get the best out of him. He can do both roles.

Hardik is struggling with his technique,i have no doubt over his ability

All this talk about his game against pace is pure BS,he is very attacking cricketer,you cannot couple consistency with such cricketers but Pant has that ability,he will surely reach atleast  Dhoni level,

Dont compare players from different time, Yuvraj was very inconsistent but was a match winner,we don't know how consistent SKY can be ,he hasn't played that much

SKY is not young anyway,he will be overlooked for someone else i have a feeling

Dhawan/Rohi/Kohli play for their stats(sorry but true)

Shaw/Kishan/Gaikwad/Paddikal can do it as well and much better especially with Shaw at the top

[vvvslaxman]

35 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Hardik is struggling with his technique,i have no doubt over his ability

All this talk about his game against pace is pure BS,he is very attacking cricketer,you cannot couple consistency with such cricketers but Pant has that ability,he will surely reach atleast  Dhoni level,

Dont compare players from different time, Yuvraj was very inconsistent but was a match winner,we don't know how consistent SKY can be ,he hasn't played that much

SKY is not young anyway,he will be overlooked for someone else i have a feeling

Dhawan/Rohi/Kohli play for their stats(sorry but true)

Shaw/Kishan/Gaikwad/Paddikal can do it as well and much better especially with Shaw at the top

 

 

Both Pant and Pandya are great against spin. But against pace they need to do a lot more than what they are doing right now.  Jadeja is good against pace only when they feed him in his half or even good length balls he can connect.  Heck i trust Thakur more against pace. Shreyas Iyer deserves a run too. You cannot toss him aside. Made 3 back to back 50s in NZ.  Need a guy like him to stabilize when there is a collapse. KL Rahul can come in and finish things off along with Pant.  Even Dhawan/Rohit leave those spots will be taken by Shaw/Ruturaj/Rahul/Gill. Not Pandya. Expectation levels are higher if someone plays as a pure batsman.  Venkatesh Iyer played atleast 2 blinders in the VH batting low down the order. 2 centuries.  Pandya is yet to score a single century even in List A cricket, How is it fair for genuine batsmen who have been doing well over the years.  Infact current under-19 Indian side has so  many fast bowling all rounders. Some of them clock 135k and also tonk the ball big. Once they are ready to take it to next level Pandya is history. Only way he can come back is by becoming a bowling all rounder. Sure he can play franchise cricket playing purely as a batsman. Not international.

[sandeep]

45 minutes ago, Banton said:

Man of the series against australia b bowling attack in that series.

 

Even C attack is enough to take care of Barber and co. in Australia, so not sure why you are moaning about that...

[zen]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

Even C attack is enough to take care of Barber and co. in Australia, so not sure why you are moaning about that...

 

SDP has two MoS against Aus:

• ODIs - 2017/8
• T20s - 2020/1 ... Also averaged 100+ in ODIs with two 90s 

[Suhaan]

12 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

 

Both Pant and Pandya are great against spin. But against pace they need to do a lot more than what they are doing right now.  Jadeja is good against pace only when they feed him in his half or even good length balls he can connect.  Heck i trust Thakur more against pace. Shreyas Iyer deserves a run too. You cannot toss him aside. Made 3 back to back 50s in NZ.  Need a guy like him to stabilize when there is a collapse. KL Rahul can come in and finish things off along with Pant.  Even Dhawan/Rohit leave those spots will be taken by Shaw/Ruturaj/Rahul/Gill. Not Pandya. Expectation levels are higher if someone plays as a pure batsman.  Venkatesh Iyer played atleast 2 blinders in the VH batting low down the order. 2 centuries.  Pandya is yet to score a single century even in List A cricket, How is it fair for genuine batsmen who have been doing well over the years.  Infact current under-19 Indian side has so  many fast bowling all rounders. Some of them clock 135k and also tonk the ball big. Once they are ready to take it to next level Pandya is history. Only way he can come back is by becoming a bowling all rounder. Sure he can play franchise cricket playing purely as a batsman. Not international.

I liked the intent Pandya had before 2020,he has made some serious flawed technical changes in his batting

I had no problem with him hitting ball in the air playing his natural game,but unfortunately when it was ripe enough to take his game to next level ,he suffered injuries and in his attempt to innovate his batting he did injustice to his immense potential,

I had high hopes of him since the start of 2019