Is Dinesh Karthik the best T20 finisher that India is looking for

[vvvslaxman]

6 minutes ago, Adamant said:

What's wrong with people here? 

He is a TTF, how many times do you want the same proof over and over again? 

 

He is a bottler who won't score 10 runs in important matches in t20 wc. 

 

You guys have got to be kidding me if you are taking these performances seriously. 

 

He is a nothing cricketer at International level. 

 

I don't advocate his selection. But he hasn't played a world T20 match in 12 years.  He was opening back then.  India hasn't won exactly anything with "non bottlers" in the last 12 years.

[punjabi_khota]

Not according to his first wife

[Majestic]

T20s:

 

Rohit

Pant

Rahul

SKY

Pandya

DK

Jadeja

Deepak

Siraj/Harshal

Yuzi

Bumrah

[Lord]

 

[putrevus]

7 hours ago, Adamant said:

What's wrong with people here? 

He is a TTF, how many times do you want the same proof over and over again? 

 

He is a bottler who won't score 10 runs in important matches in t20 wc. 

 

You guys have got to be kidding me if you are taking these performances seriously. 

 

He is a nothing cricketer at International level. 

He might have been a bottler and still might be a bottler.Do you have anyone who is not a bottler in Indian team. 

 

The problem is whole Indian team is full of bottlers including current captain and ex captain. Kohli was great in t20s but that was in 2016 since then he has bottled in every big match both in odis and t20s along with Rohit.

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, Lord said:

 

 

thats why he is successful at range hitting 

[Adamant]

18 hours ago, Lord said:

 

Ok now this should be the final nail on the coffin. 

 

How much proof do we want now? 

 

The worst analyst and captain in the history of world cricket has just rated DK, that definitely means he isn't good enough. 

 

[Adamant]

17 hours ago, putrevus said:

He might have been a bottler and still might be a bottler.Do you have anyone who is not a bottler in Indian team. 

 

The problem is whole Indian team is full of bottlers including current captain and ex captain. Kohli was great in t20s but that was in 2016 since then he has bottled in every big match both in odis and t20s along with Rohit.

You really don't get what I mean by a bottler here bro. 

It's not just icc finals, matches vs big teams in icc tournaments whether group stage or virtual knockouts also count, 

Rohit/Virat have performed in many big matches - 

CT 2017 vs pak group match

Ct 17 vs Sa virtual Quarterfinal

Ct 17 vs Ban semi

 

Wc 19 vs Pak

Wc 19 vs many other big teams 

And so on....... 

 

Kohli was also the only one who stood against Pak in the recent match, Dk would have collapsed at the first sight of pressure. 

 

He is basically KL Rahul level bottler and 1/10 as talented as KL. 

[Pollack]

25 minutes ago, Adamant said:

You really don't get what I mean by a bottler here bro. 

It's not just icc finals, matches vs big teams in icc tournaments whether group stage or virtual knockouts also count, 

Rohit/Virat have performed in many big matches - 

CT 2017 vs pak group match

Ct 17 vs Sa virtual Quarterfinal

Ct 17 vs Ban semi

 

Wc 19 vs Pak

Wc 19 vs many other big teams 

And so on....... 

 

Kohli was also the only one who stood against Pak in the recent match, Dk would have collapsed at the first sight of pressure. 

 

He is basically KL Rahul level bottler and 1/10 as talented as KL. 

So basically you have just CT2017. 

Kohli and Sharma are bottlers. You don't need to defend it. Only casual cricket fans believe Rohit can be clutch in crucial matches while kohli was clutch only for a short duration when he was at his absolute peak.

 

[Adamant]

2 hours ago, Pollack said:

So basically you have just CT2017. 

Kohli and Sharma are bottlers. You don't need to defend it. Only casual cricket fans believe Rohit can be clutch in crucial matches while kohli was clutch only for a short duration when he was at his absolute peak.

 

Try to read the conversation - Kohli and Sharma might be bottlers in icc odi knockouts(even there they have some performances) but Dk is a bottler in any match of significance against good teams. 

And yes there's a big difference between the two. 

 

As for CT 17 being the only example, I just don't want to list down all the t20 wc knocks and ct 13 knocks. 

[vvvslaxman]

5 hours ago, Adamant said:

You really don't get what I mean by a bottler here bro. 

It's not just icc finals, matches vs big teams in icc tournaments whether group stage or virtual knockouts also count, 

Rohit/Virat have performed in many big matches - 

CT 2017 vs pak group match

Ct 17 vs Sa virtual Quarterfinal

Ct 17 vs Ban semi

 

Wc 19 vs Pak

Wc 19 vs many other big teams 

And so on....... 

 

Kohli was also the only one who stood against Pak in the recent match, Dk would have collapsed at the first sight of pressure. 

 

He is basically KL Rahul level bottler and 1/10 as talented as KL. 

 

Which  one of this game is T20 match?   None.  India lost a world T20 final due to lack of impetus in death overs. He hasn't played world T20 in 12 years.

[sarcastic]

22 hours ago, Pollack said:

So basically you have just CT2017. 

Kohli and Sharma are bottlers. You don't need to defend it. Only casual cricket fans believe Rohit can be clutch in crucial matches while kohli was clutch only for a short duration when he was at his absolute peak.

 

WC 2015 QF and CT 2017 SF are crucial matches even for serious cricket fans and I think Rohit played clutch innings in those. 
Granted one can say the opposition is BD (not the strongest) but they are knockout matches in an ICC tournament and winning is as important as any other ICC knockout.

But I agree with your general sentiment that most of our batsmen are "mostly" bottlers... Even the prev generation of SRT/Dravid/Ganguly too. 

[Lord]

11 hours ago, sarcastic said:

WC 2015 QF and CT 2017 SF are crucial matches even for serious cricket fans and I think Rohit played clutch innings in those. 
Granted one can say the opposition is BD (not the strongest) but they are knockout matches in an ICC tournament and winning is as important as any other ICC knockout.

But I agree with your general sentiment that most of our batsmen are "mostly" bottlers... Even the prev generation of SRT/Dravid/Ganguly too. 

 

knockout games v teams like BD are actually even more easier as that team is bound to crumble under pressure.

 

getting back to Karthik,hes as gifted as any.No reason to not back him. 

[sarcastic]

8 hours ago, Lord said:

 

knockout games v teams like BD are actually even more easier as that team is bound to crumble under pressure.

 

 

Any knock out match game is important from the stand point of view of team trying to win the tournament. 

The batsman does not choose which team he faces in the knock outs. If the innings is valuable from the point of view of winning the match then that innings is clutch.

That is to say, DK's innings vs BD in Nidahas Trophy final is clutch because it is played in finals of a multi-player tournament and his innings made the difference of winning/loosing the match. 

There are three criteria that can be used to determine if a knock can be considered clutch.

1. Would the team have won that match without that contribution? (This is matter of the entry and exit point of the batsman n others contributions there).
2. Is the match important in the context of the tournament. Can the team afford to loose it but still stay alive in the tournament. Then the pressure is less
3. Is the tournament important enough. This is again context-dependent.

In general, a tri-nation tournament higher rated than a bilateral. (Occasional exceptions do exist where a bilateral is better.) Thats why we still remember the Natwest 2002 and Nidahas 2018 for a reason. A multi-national tournament (especially one held by ICC) is at the highest level in that tournament hierarchy.
 

A clutch innings is not necessarily an innings reflecting maximum cricketing expertise or application. That is, the opposition may be weaker or the conditions not that tough. In that case, we say from PoV of cricketing ability/application, that innings is just average.

 

So, I agree with your other point that an innings playing against tough opposition in difficult conditions is a better innings. Yes, it is better from the PoV of a cricketing ability and cricket skills.

For example, if a player plays a big innings in and vs Australia in Gabba in very hostile conditions and when the bowlers apparently are in song, that innings is a great one in cricketing terms. But if it cannot be considered clutch unless it satisfied the conditions like above. It could definitely be more skilled innings, an innings displaying greater cricketing ability than a knockout innings vs weak opposition but the it is not more clutch unless it leads to winning a memorable tournament.

So, an innings that is great from cricketing abilities wise is not necessarily a clutch and clutch innings is not necessarily great from the PoV of skill. 
Yes, there can be innings that qualifies to be in both buckets. A player who plays that innings will be definitely more remembered than one which does not. 
But that does not take anything away from "clutch" innings only or "cricketing wise great" innings only.

Quote

getting back to Karthik,hes as gifted as any.No reason to not back him. 

Stating the obvious Sherlock. Off course, DK deserves a look again. That's why this thread got created.

Edited April 17, 2022 by sarcastic

[raki05]

On 4/15/2022 at 2:57 PM, Adamant said:

Try to read the conversation - Kohli and Sharma might be bottlers in icc odi knockouts(even there they have some performances) but Dk is a bottler in any match of significance against good teams. 

And yes there's a big difference between the two. 

 

As for CT 17 being the only example, I just don't want to list down all the t20 wc knocks and ct 13 knocks. 

Only multinational tournament T20  final we won in last decade was won by you know whom. 

[raki05]

At current form he should be fist name before Sharma ji ka ladka and MC/BC.

[putrevus]

On 4/15/2022 at 2:08 AM, Adamant said:

You really don't get what I mean by a bottler here bro. 

It's not just icc finals, matches vs big teams in icc tournaments whether group stage or virtual knockouts also count, 

Rohit/Virat have performed in many big matches - 

CT 2017 vs pak group match

Ct 17 vs Sa virtual Quarterfinal

Ct 17 vs Ban semi

 

Wc 19 vs Pak

Wc 19 vs many other big teams 

And so on....... 

 

Kohli was also the only one who stood against Pak in the recent match, Dk would have collapsed at the first sight of pressure. 

 

He is basically KL Rahul level bottler and 1/10 as talented as KL. 

I was  not comparing Kohli to DK at all. 

 

DK has serious issues with dealing pressure.He even crumbles in test cricket as keeper.But T20 might be his best format, he just has to play his game. Other thing is we don't have anyone else who is even remotely close to DK.

[Adamant]

9 hours ago, raki05 said:

Only multinational tournament T20  final we won in last decade was won by you know whom. 

We won asia cup t20 too, guess who was the best performer there. 

[raki05]

13 minutes ago, Adamant said:

We won asia cup t20 too, guess who was the best performer there. 

Yes that was an young performing Kohli not the Geriatric age fudger who can't put bat on ball. Comparing present Karthik to Kohli is like comparing 2016 Asia Cup Kohli to Karthik.

[Suhaan]

DK does this time and again

Whose place he is going to be?

 

 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Suhaan